Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

So I've had the Cool Top sitting here for awhile now. Finally decided to put it in as the summer is getting hotter by the day.

2001 Chevy Blazer, stock as can be. 1.75 lbs of R-134a in stock configuration. I used 2 cans of Cool Top (12 oz each can)

On the day I converted over, the weather was 85°/82%. Cool by Houston standards in June. But muggy as always. (Dew point of 78°.....in other words as muggy outside as it would be at 78°/100% humidity)

It was running 42° duct temps on R-134a moving in the city. 43° on the highway.

After the Cool Top went in, it immediately dropped down to 37° while briefly getting in the 36° range. I didn't hose down the condenser. (Cool Top is a combination of R-152a/R-134a/R-125. After installing it, it takes some time to re-blend. Either hosing the condenser with water or simply leaving it over night will allow it to re-blend completely)

Yesterday I noticed it dropping down to 34°. At that point the compressor cycled off. The low pressure cycle switch doesn't appear to be adjustable.

The real test should be when it's 97-100° outside with our humidity on top of that. I remember last year, with R-134a it would sit at 45° on the highway for as long as you were driving. Comfort was decent, but nothing like the GTA with it's R-406a.

Cool Top has a small amount of Tune Air pre-mixed in it to keep moisture out. The initial pull down doesn't seem much different from R-134a. The real difference lies in the 50° and colder areas. It keeps going, while R-134a strains.

R-406a on the other hand drops the duct temps by 1 to 1.5° every second during the initial pull down. (100° interior temp to start) Very fast.

Refrigerantsales.com sells the stuff. No EPA 609 certification needed to buy. No unique service ports are required since it's not listed under the SNAP program. (The SNAP program is for R-12 substitutes.) They do give you a sticker for your vehicle though.

My thoughts? It's a good alternative for R-134a systems. It doesn't appear to have insane performance like R-406a. But then again I didn't expect it to. I just wanted better than R-134a performance with no compatibility issues. The lower duct temps are a boon for dehumidification. Dehumidifying is the name of the game in my climate.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Ultimately I think this is a good comprise. This is mostly my wife's vehicle, although I do drive it a fair amount too. It's weird. She freezes me out at home, yet thinks my car runs too cool. The first thing she'll do is turn the vent away from her or close it all the way when she's in the GTA. She says the Blazer is colder now, but not too cold.

I did notice that the Cool Top/Blazer combination will put a bit of fog on the outside of the windshield (running MAX COOL position). The GTA will put much more fog on the windshield in the same MAX COOL position. This is due to the inside air being colder than the outdoor dew points. A common occurrence in industrial air conditioned places (Starbucks building, restaurants etc). When this happens, you've definitely got cool dry air inside. It can be averted by turning the system off or simply moving the cold-hot slider towards the middle. This still gives the maximum dehumidifying aspect of running the coil super cold while adding a bit of heat to keep the windshield clear.

The Blazer/R-134a combination never put any fog on the outside of the windshield. Didn't run cold enough inside for it to occur.

The windshield fogging only occurs in hot-humid climates where outside dew points are high.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am on Padre island today in my 06 Ram with the HC290 in it....Its blowing around 34* on the 2nd fan speed and easily fogging the exterior of the windows down here....The back window and all 4 side windows start to fog on the outside.

Initial pulldown on HC290 is IMPRESSIVE...Its like start it up and its already blowing ice cubes....Its blowing under 40* at the vents in under 30 seconds, even on high fan speed.

monkihead

awesome review. I've been looking at alternatives and haven't heard of the Cool Top. When my r-12 goes out, I know what to look for.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

R-12 --> R-406a
R-134a --> Cool Top

Same guy made both of them. Each one is designed for the prior refrigerant. R-406a for example uses the same mineral oil that R-12 uses. Cool top uses PAG or POE that R-134a uses. No oil change is needed.

I wouldn't switch a vehicle from R-12 to Cool Top. No point in doing that.

MotorMouth

Here I can't buy R-12 unless I have a certificate and be a licensed HVAC or auto mechanic. I can only get the newer EVO friendly stuff. Just a few years ago I was not able to buy anything we could only get it fixed by a shop. That's why I converted mine over to R-134a because they have stopped making R-12. Once the supply is up no one will be able to get it. http://yosemite.epa.gov/R10/airpage.nsf/283d45bd5bb068e68825650f0064cdc2/5744f7f6103a1fb688256c080074598a!OpenDocument

So if you need to repair or service your A/C it will not cost much more to convert it over. All the kit comes with are seals because R-134a does not have CFC. Until my A/C was needing a refill this year I never noticed any difference in the cooling. I do live in a very hot and humid climate.

l_dis_travlr

Doctor Cool, u-da-man

In previous posts, you touted comparibly great results with "AutoFrost",
as an R-12 replacement. I'm putting the 90 Formula together,
(R-12 originally) with all new parts. My son has the requisite license,
so I can get whatever I need, and cost is a secondary concern.
So what light can you shed on product comparison, availability, and cost?

What really like to be at the Houston meet next week-end, but
Father's day committments, :blah

kk

haps

iTrader: (4)

Any links to a place that sells 406a in less than a 25lb cylinder? Since it's a direct replacement for R-12, it might be slightly eaiser than making the conversion....yes?

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Both are available at refrigerantsales.com

R-12 is $30/can. R-406a is $15/can. Either way it takes exactly 3 cans.

Performance wise, the 406a wins hands down. Faster initial cool down. Lower temp at maximum cooling stage. In the event of a leak, the performance of 406a will drop down to about the same performance as 12. R-406a is better for the environment as well. Both are very good in terms of mineral oil disolving in the mix during operation. Some of the other blends out there are so so to outright bad in terms of oil dissolving into the refrigerant when the system is running.

The website mentioned above sells it in both the 25 lb cylinders and cans. They have 2 links. One says Autofrost. The other says R-406a. They're the same product. Autofrost = R-406a


I seem to have run into the problem of evaporator freeze ups with the Blazer. (I was told this may happen and to use normal R-134a with a can of Tune Air instead..... Cool Top was meant for the original R-134a cars back in the mid 1990's when their initial performance was outright terrible. Before the days of parallel flow condensers and slower fan speeds)

Driving the GTA, when I drive home and get out of the car, I can see a trail of water droplets behind the car where I just drove. Right down the driveway. Looking under the car, I will see gobs and gobs of water dripping. It works great.

With the Blazer, I went for a drive yesterday and got it down to 32-33° duct temps. But on a 20 minute drive, the air speed coming out of the ducts will start to slow down (evap freezing up, blocking the flow of air....Evap is generally about 10° colder than duct temps on any given car).

Switching to VENT offs the compressor and allows the evap to thaw out. I had a thermostat in the ducts watching this. And sure enough, the air coming out the ducts feels about the same during the unthaw. Sticks at around 40° (30'ish at the evap). About 20 seconds later, the air starts to get humid (ice gone, hot muggy air entering the system now) and the thermostat starts to rise quickly. 45...50...53....57. At this point I switched back to MAX A/C and drove home another 20 minutes.

I got home and shut the Blazer off. Step out of it and walk around. Nothing on the driveway. Nothing dripping out of the evaporator. Wait about 1 minute. The odd droplet falls off the accumulator, but nothing coming out of the evaporator. I had poured some vinegar into the evaporator tub below it to see if the drain was blocked before the drive. It flowed out quickly. So no trouble there. So I stand there another 30 seconds. The GTA by this time would be on full flood mode by this point, but nothing coming from the Blazer......So I got in it and started it up. Switched it to VENT and fast fan speed for about 15-20 seconds. Shut it off and get out. Hmmmm, there we go. Water roaring out like Hurricane Katrina. More water than I've ever seen drip out of the Blazer.

So now the debate is whether this is a hot weather pheminon (too hot outside thus it rarely cycles off) and should be fine in cooler months. Or if it's that the Cool Top blend has lower temperatures at the same low psi shut off point. Personally I can live with occasionally switching from MAX to VENT while driving. My wife on the other hand wants to leave it on MAX for months at a time and not deal with slower fan speeds. I will admit that it felt quite nice getting 32-34° air blowing out at me. It did cycle off occasionally, but not very often.

I'm starting to think the R-134a + Tune Air can combination might be the more user friendly system. Should get me to 39° ducts and cycling. Avoiding the 45° at best temps on hot summer days.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

how well did it work in the trans am? my 83 trans am is already converted to R-134a, will cooltop be ok in my system?

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I've only had Cool Top in the Blazer (originally R-134a)

The GTA is running Autofrost R-406a (originally R-12)

If I had an adjustable low pressure switch on the Blazer like I do on the GTA, the ice wouldn't be a problem. Could simply turn it up.

KITT1983, Cool Top should work good for you.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

How cold should I expect it to be with with cool top when compared to R-134a?

R-134a: I got it down to 41 degrees with the outside around 70 degrees

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

That's it? Is that on MAX or NORM? Is that driving the car or idling it?

Cool Top is supposed to be good for 10° temp drops over R-134a. In my experience, it most certainly does this. And I live in a hot and extremely muggy climate.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

that was not with cool top. In that test I was using regular R-134a and I was idling

new england can be hot and extremely muggy too

Tommy R

Just refilled my ac with Autozone r134 stuff. car kools down to sixty degrees tops. Do you really think i should switch to Cool Top and see if i can get in the 40's? Any help would be kool. I will spend the $54 on the 3 cans (now $18 a piece) . What do you think ?

Tommy

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Well today I drove on the same highway heading out to my aunt's home. Same time of the day as the test above. (2PM) Temperature outside was 101°. Duct temps got down to 38°.

I've also noticed lately that the initial cool down has been better than what it was with R-134a. August in Houston has been a record breaker this year. (Average temperature counting daytime highs and nighttime lows has been 88°)

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I had to do some A/C work to the Ram yesterday after having a leaking shrader valve on the high side line. I charged the A/C system right at 3:00 pm under a shade tree. With Envirosafe straight out of the can, at idle, condensor getting 106*F air, doors shut, recirculate, high fan speed, I was reading 340/60 psi and getting 43*F air out of the vents. At 2,000 rpm, I was reading 420/40 psi and getting 40*F air. I then drove it to pickup food and observed vent temps as low as 38*F at 70 mph on the highway. Cruising down the highway at 70 mph, the ambient temperature reading (located right in front of the condensor BTW) was reading 110*F. It was 105*F officially at DFW Airport yesterday and I have no doubt that over the asphalt on the busy highway it could have been 110*F.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Are the 340-420 psi readings on the high-side about normal for Envirosafe? I thought they were supposed to have super low high-side measurements?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Those pressure readings are very normal for the inadequate condensor in the 3rd generation Dodge Rams. In the same weather with R134a the compressor is cycling off on the high side cut-out at 2,000 rpm (450ish psi) and the air is 15*F warmer.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

any updates?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

System is working great, overhead display was showing 102*F and the a/c was blowing a nice cool 38*F sitting at idle.

ikeepitreelz

What do you guys think, Iam getting my brand new AcDelco compressor this week along with a "high performance orifice tube:" from santech and the accumulator, what refrigerant should i go with and how much would it cost compared to filling it with r134? (it was converted o 134 by the previous owner btw) going to have to get new fitting for the accum.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Nothing new here. Blazer still is running Cool Top. Still blows in the 30's. Lately, we've been getting 98-105° weather in Houston. As a matter of fact, the first 6 days of June, we set 5 daily temp records as well as broke the hottest day in June record. (now stands at 105°.)

105°F doesn't sound that hot, but the high humidity here tends to keep the temps from getting much past that. (All time temp record for Houston is 109°)

I was in the Blazer yesterday evening. The initial pull down was quite nice. Better than I ever remember R-134a being. The real test is getting into it in the middle of the afternoon after an interior heat soak. Seats are warm. Ducts are warm. Engine is warm. Radiator is warm. The Cool Top does the trick in this regard. R-134a could never get you "comfortable" unless you'd been driving for about 25 minutes.

It's still not as cold as the Trans Am with Autofrost. But the Blazer has better insulation and higher faster moving ducts. They tend to blow at you more than the GTA's ducts do. So it's a trade off.

Were I to do it again, I might try the Envirosafe on the Blazer.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

how many cans does it take to fill for our cars amd how much for it? Will autofrost work in a R134a system.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

R-406a is $18/can. Old R-12 cars take 3 cans. My car was 2.25 lbs of R-12 originally. Autofrost (R-406a) uses 80% as much. The cans are 9.6 oz each. So 3 cans is exactly 1.8 lbs. (which is 80% of 2.25 lbs)

Cool Top is $21/can. Cool Top uses 90% as much as R-134a. In the Blazer, it says 1.75 lbs or 1.8 lbs of R-134a depending on what label you read. I put in 2 cans (12 oz each). So that's 1.5 lbs of Cool Top. Works fine. Not undercharged. Not overcharged. The instructions say if you are slightly undercharged, you can add a little bit of R-134a in if you want/need.

Autofrost (R-406a) is for R-12 cars only.
Cool Top is for R-134a cars only.

They were each designed for their respective types. The oils are not compatible with each other, much like R-12 oil (mineral) and R-134a oil (PAG or POE)

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Supposed to be 101° tomorrow. I should see if I can get some temps in the Blazer.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I got some temps in the 97 Express today after some a/c work I did to it. Replaced the sticking rear expansion valve, the front evaporator, the accumulator, flushed the system of trash that had been in it since the first compressor failed and was replaced under factory warranty in 2000. Also included replacing that JUNK non-adjustable pressure switch with an adjustable R134a replacement for a 95 G20 Van. I also replaced the stock fan clutch and 5 blade metal fan for a HD clutch and 11 blade plastic fan. I also sealed the condensor to the radiator with some large 2"x2" foam strips on each end.

I actually used R134a in it this time due to being out of Envirosafe and having a 30 lbs cylinder of 134a in the garage. I tweaked the low-pressure cut-off from 35 psi down to about 24 PSI. Even heat soaked at idle the vent temps dropped like a rock, the head pressure never rose above 250 psi, as soon as it started to rise and get some heat in the condensor, the clutch started to lockup and engaged the fan at 100%. After about 10 minutes in the hot sun, 100+ outside, the head pressure had dropped to 230 psi, the low side to 38 psi and the air was blowing a nice cold 44*F I reved the engine up to about 2,000 rpm and the high side pressure spiked to 250, then dropped toward 215 psi, as the low pressure plumeted to the low 30s and stayed. The air from the vents dropped to 38*F and stayed. At this point confident everything was working correctly I removed the hoses, shut the hood, and took it for a ride. It was about 2:00 pm and 101*F with 35% humidity. I drove it around for a solid 10 minutes with both a/c units blasting and hit the highway. On the highway I saw the a/c get as cold as 33*F out of the vents with the blower on high, before the compressor would cycle out. It was COLD and stayed cold. A properly functioning a/c is a package and it all has to work togather. A clean condensor that is in good shape, a properly functioning compressor (Valeo, Sanden Style 510 with GM style mounting), properly functioning evaporators, cooling system that is adequate and properly functioning, properly working and adjusted cycling switch, and a proper charge of pure refrigerant. Gets cold enough to put ice on your fingers. The difference in Envirosafe is I could dial in the cut-off at 35-45 psi, get a quicker pulldown, and get 35*F temps at idle.











The aggressive pitched 11 blade fan moves more air than any than any E-fan I have found at idle.