Alright. I've actually been doing more reading before posting so if I needed to post I could at least give an accurate description of what I am running into - I am not a mechanic, just some regular idiot who likes Camaros:

The facts(please see my sig for car info):

- car was running at approx 220 to 240 since I bought it. I only tested that it ran on about a 2 mile drive.

- 63,000 miles, but has not been on the road since 93.

- I did a complete flush, used the prestone flush stuff, and really took my time to do it right. There was all kind of what I think people would call "scale" in the systen. All sorts of white looking crud which was almost creamy. By the time I finished it was "better" but still not what I think people would consider perfect.

- I repleaced all the hoses + belts, including upper and lower rad hoses.

- I think the water pump is technically alright, no noise, but I have no proof of that. If need be, I will replace it to elminate it as a problem.

- I have not checked the thermostat, but I would replace it to also eliminate it as a problem before I pull the water pump. I won't even bother to boil it, its too cheap and I will tick my wife off boiling some car part on the stove (even more than the actual purchase of the Camaro!). Should I go with one that opens at 160?

- Really, I think the radiator is just clogged, or worse. What is the absolute best way to really flush one of these things out. If I have to go through the trouble of pulling the entire stinking thing out, I might just relpace it, but I hope I don't have to.

I want this car to run at a normal operating temperature. I am not going to half *** it. I want it to be set to OEM specs.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks guys

 

Driving habits, location, and driving environment (ie: rush hour, or highway) could be a HUGE factor.

220 is usually ok, but 240 is getting on the high side now.

I would HIGHLY recommend replacing the thermostat, get one that fails OPEN. Its usually the first thing you should replace. It may be sticking or stuck.

I wouldnt worry about the rad if youve flushed it out. You would have noticed if it was clogged when you were flushing it.

Also wouldnt worry about the waterpump. You would notice leaks, or noises, and your car would overheat within 2 minutes of driving if it wasnt working.

Do you have an air dam? What sort of fan do you run? Where are you noticing the overheating (driving conditions), or is it all the time? Does the temp stay consistantly hot, or is it up and down and unpredictable?

 

Thanks for your post. It definitley didn't have any problems draining. And I actually flushed it with the procedure on the bottle of prestone, which quite frankly, was more in depth than the shop manual procudure. But just from a visual inspection, I wasn't impressed, but then again, I don't know what I'm looking at.

I should also mention. I've only owned this car three weeks. It doesn't have current inspection yet. The camaro has just been around here for a couple miles since the flush. It just seems too hot! There was a small amount of steam coming off the right side, and when it went up to 240 that was too much for me given I hear guys have their's running in the 160 range.

The fan is stock, but it was kicking in, which I understand only happens when it is getting into higher temps. This is kicking in when the car is just sitting at idle for a while.

Where can I get a theromostat that fails open, and has the correct operating temp? Autozone?

Also: It's hot all the time IMO. There is no air dam unless they come stock because this thing is bone stock. The temp really only ranges between those ranges I posted.

 

MOST of them fail open. Just get a good one with a name brand you recognize. No cheap stuff. Even a 180* regular one should be fine.

Where is the steam coming from? How long does it take to reach 240? And areyou just idling to get there?

Rads usually look really gunky from the outside, as long as they arent leaking youre ok. If stuff went in, and came out at a fairly quick rate, you should be ok.

As for the fan, i was referring more to if yours is mechanical or electrical. For an early car, i think its wierd its an electric one. If youre happy with it, i would also recommend changing the switch. Its probably only ment to go on at that temp. The factory ones let the car get pretty hot before going on. The switches dont cost much. Otherwise, switch to a clutched mechanical fan from an older camaro. My bro has one in his car, and it keeps it nice and cool.

 

Takes probably 10 minutes at idle to get around there, I don't know.

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but how can I tell if its mechnical or electrical? I believe its electric. I see wiring running to is which I can only imagine is hooked up to some sensor?

Where am I thermostat shopping?

 

I don't know anybody who has their car actually running at 160° all the time. Unless you're driving it in sub freezing weather.

I took my 160 out and put in a 180. It ran better. Still keeps the car in the 180-200 range in Texas weather.

Most people feel the radiator for cool spots after the car is shut off. But the fan(s) tend to get in the way on our cars. As you would expect, be very careful about having the car off. Might want to pull the battery cable just to be on the safe side before feeling the rad.

Water pumps seem like they either work or they don't.

Have you been topping up the radiator after the car is at 180° temps? Might have some nasty air bubbles in there. Or your thermostat may be rusted up enough that it just doesn't sense as well as it should.

For the basics, I'd go with a 180 stat and if your car has a fan switch, do the 200-185 fan switch. Works great for summer and winter.

 

Ok thats not bad. I think the thermostatic switch might be your problem (on the fan). My car takes about 5 mins to get up to temperature (190*), and then i start driving. In traffic it goes up to 210 really quick (within a minute) and i turn my fan on. I just made it a manual switch. You may want to get a ":thermostatic switch" for yours. They sell them in custom temps, like ON at 200 OFF at 180 and so on.

An electric fan is attached to the RADIATOR, and is fairly low profile, it definately has wires to it.

A mechanical one has sharp blades, they are a bit bulkier, and are attached to the waterpump pulley.

You can buy the thermostat and the switch at any parts store. Autozone, CarQuest, NAPA, etc...

 

Where do I buy a 180 stat that's going to work on my car? Same with the switch. Where is the stitch located?

 

Dont quote me on this, but the switch is probably where the car measures its temperature. Its one of the senders, either on top (on the intake manifold) or on the side (in the driver side cylinder head). If you buy the switch, it should have instructions.

Youve already spent alot of money, so dont buy both at once. Get the 180* thermostat first, see how that works out.

 

I don't think I'm $100 into the car yet. On a $1400 car I am just going to service everything to get it running perfect before I move onto the more fun stuff.

My question though is... WHERE can I buy these items, what stores would have the stuff I need in stock. I like to fix things correct. Either OEM, or better than OEM is what I am looking for.

 

.

 

Cool, only two final questions!! ...thanks again for all the help.

1.) What is the correct procedure for filling the cooling system so no air pockets form?

2.) Is there a technical name for the OEM fan switch for the from fan?

Thanks

Chris

 

let the engine run with the rad cap off and as the fluid level goes down add more untill the coolant doesnt drop down anymore.

 

Do you mean with the actual radiator cap or the reservoir cap?

 

the actual radiator cap. i have done enough water pump gaskets on GenIII V8's in the new chevy trucks to know some tricks (damn things leak all the time). just let her run while adding coolant. make sure the overflow tank is full too.

 

It wont start boiling out or anything?

 

if you do it when the engine is cold, all the air pockets will be out of the system before it gets hot. it works every time, i have done it to my suburban, numerous W-cars, and a bunch of 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton trucks.

just fill it up while its cold then start the engine and watch the level drop then just keep adding coolant.

 

ok cool, I will haft to do this when I add more fluid, thanks

 

Any suggestions on what the best flush out stuff is. I might flush it just once more because I can.

This is fun! I might do my truck this weekend too.

 

Valvoline makes a good product. i dont know if you can get it at your local parts store, all i know is we sell it at the chevy dealership i work at. also the GM radiator stop leak is a great product if you have a small leak, and its only like 5 or 10 bucks

 

1) Like weinz90 said, open the radiator cap (not the reservoir), and start the car. As the waterpump cycles, it will circulate the fluid, and push the air pockets to the top of the rad. The fluid will keep dropping, so keep adding little more each time. When its JUST ABOUT to overflow, you can put the cap back on. Usually takes 2-3 minutes of the car running to get all the bubbles out. It wont be hot or spew out at you or anything.

2) The parts guy will know what you mean when you say "fan switch" or "thermostatic fan switch".

 

I have done a lot of data logging over the past month and one thing I've noticed is the (my) temperature gauge is incorrect. When it reads 220' it's actually closer to 195-200'. The first hash mark (7 o'clock) is around 180'. I always got real nervous when the gauge got over 220' but now I know it's not that hot.
BTW-Every gauge that I have is incorrect according to the actual computer's reported value. Tach reads about 5-600 rpm high at 5500, volts reads 1-2 low, and the temp gauge is off as described.
Now this doesn't address if you have overheating problems or steam coming out of the motor at times but know that the gauge may not be accurate.
I would suggest getting a scanner or installing a reliable temperature gauge. At least to compare it's readings to the dash gauge, then you could remove it once you know if yours is off or not.

 

I'm going to try and dive into this thing tomorrow. We are under snow here so I'll have some time on my hands. I think I have everything I need after reading this thread to accomplish everything I need to do. I will let you guys know how I make out. Thanks again.

 

I'm still not happy.

I drained the system again today. Again, I replaced all hoses previously, flushed it once before.

This pass I replaced the thermostat and put in place a 180 temp thermostat. I followed the steps to refill the sytem.

I believe because the car sat for so long that the sediment actually ate through the radiator in some small spots along the sides of the radiator because once it gets hot a fine amount of steam comes off either side of the radiator and I can see some liquid along the sides.

Even at idle the car is sitting at around 220, which is a slight improvement, but that fan is kicking in around 240 which it hits just sitting. I'm making the broad assumtion that my gauges are correct. I don't think its technically overheating but it is annoying.

I hope this is not a dumb question, but the fan switch is on top of the thermostat housing correct? Not that its bad, because it does appear to function.

I think the radiator is shotsky.

 

F-cars dont like to sit and idle. my old 94 z28 always got hot just sitting, but never overheated. a friend of mines 91 vert did the same. as for the leaking radiator you can either try the GM radiator stop leak or get a new radiator your call but i would try the stop leak first since its only 5 or 10 bucks, its good stuff.

 

yours sounds like its doing how mine does. Ive done a couple things and havent figured it out yet. The fan switch is on the passenger side under the exhaust manifolds. you could always put a lower one in.

 

It just seems strange to me that these things run so hot. I think technically if its not overheating the steam this is more embarrasing than anything else right now.

All up and in, if I was going to replace it, am I asking for trouble with a cheap knockoff like this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEWA:IT&ih=007

 

Yes, you just said it!
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That was for #2. #1 is to remove start the car when cold, remove the radiator cap, start it up at let it run at a high idle. Make sure the car isn`t going to take off on you. I usually put a penny or nickle between the throttle stop and intake so I have a free hand to pour in the antifreeze. Top off the coolant and put on the cap. Check the tank a few times the first few times you drive the car and your done.

 

Guys, is the stock radiator brass? Are aluminum radiators better at breaking up heat. I think some of the later model rad's were aluminum, but I don't think mine is?

 

The best money I have spent on my `88 Iroc with 383 &700 R4 trans is a 4th gen fan shroud. My radiator is stock as is the water pump. I replaced the fan switch with one that comes on at 200 off at 185 and I replaced the thermostat with a 180. You can throw a ton of money at these cars to get the operating temps down but nothing will bring the temps down better than the shroud. I recently hooked up a toggle switch to each fan along with an LED on each fan relay so I know when my fan/fans are on.

 

Where did you get that fan switch? I think I do still need to ultimatley replace the rad. Also, any suggestions on where to get the correct shroud? Did you have to do any fitting for that?

 

spider, I got the switch from Summit. It is a Jet part#60600 I think. It`s a 200 on and 185 off switch. Go to Summits site and look around. They should also have the thermostat, a Stewart EMP-301, 180 degree and it has 3 3/16ths bypass holes machined in it so you always have some coolant flow. I still have the stock radiator and water pump. I bought a Stewart Stage 1 pump and never put it on. I got my shroud from Hawks, it`s the LT1 version. I would recommend the LS1 instead. I had a lot of cutting to do so the shroud would fit flush to the radiator. There is an excellent "how to" by I think IrocMike. It`s an install of a 4th gen LS1 type shroud with the LS1 fans and relays, harnesses, everything fits! Look it over before you spend a lot of money. The actual install of my shroud was easy. A 30" piece of 5/8ths or 3/4in heater hose or pipe foam and a kit with 3 or 4 plastic ties, the type used to install tranny coolers to radiators. Jegs has the best price on those. My car runs much cooler in town and going across the Mojave desert. I just hooked up 2 toggle switches, 1 for each fan and an LED to each fan relay so I know when the fan/fans are running.

 

First off, I would like to say hi all, I have not posted in such a long time.

There is a common misconception that there is something wrong with 3rd gens when they run between 220 and 235/240 degrees. I did a lot of research in the past and got into many arguments with my cousin over this one.
But eventually I found it in the 1986 Firebird Service manual.
The normal OEM factory operating temperature for these cars are 220-240.
The fan is set to kick on at 235.

The reason why they did this is for emissions purposes, but it doesn’t help performance or longevity of the engine though.

There are many tips and trick to help bring down that temperature, and many have been listed.
One thing I found, that totally helped my 86 Firebird is switching over to headers, and 3” exhaust. I was amazing how much it dropped my temperature average. Now if my car ever gets anywhere near 220 I am amazed. It usually runs around 190 all the time.

I didn’t notice if your car was carb. or fuel injected, but switching over to headers and a larger exhaust also helped horse power greatly on my carbureted car.

My 85 was TPI, and the larger exhaust didn’t seem to make as big of an impact.

Hope this helps.

 

ezysk is right OEM specs call for the fan to turn on between 225 and 235* IIRC, sucks but true.

Also, early model single electric fan setups do not have a "fan switch" (putting on asbestos undies now ). The electric fan is controlled by a temp sender in the water jacket (on the LG4 this is on the thermostat housing), this temp sender feeds the computer, the computer then activates the fan relay. This is also the temp sender that tells the computer if the engine is cold or hot for fuel/air and idle purposes.

This temp will not be the same as the temp you see on the guage for 2 reasons: #1 stock gauges kinda suck #2 the sensor for the guage is located in a different position (in drivers side cyl head) than the sensor for the computer.

Yes aluminum rads are more efficient and most 3rdgens came stock with an aluminum/plastic composite rad.

Your options are A) leave the stock system alone and learn to live with higher temps (might be a problem if you have high ambient tmps and humidity in summer) B) have your PROM reprogrammed to activate the fan at a different range C) go full on aftermarket fan control, see The Total Fan Control article here on TGO

Have your rad checked or take your fan and shroud off (1 pigtail, 4 bolts) run the car to op temp (dont let it overheat) then check the rad for cool spots by feeling the surface of the fins. If there are large areas of surface much cooler than others it is an indication that the rad may be plugged up.

 

Great. I can't wait to get my 200 on 185 fan switch I ordered from Summit today. Its good to know its not going to work before it even gets to my door.

 

Just to chime in about the 160 temp part. My car from start up will heat up to 185 then drop to 160-162 and stay there NO MATTER where i am or how im driving. That is where my can runs the best at...

Might not be the best for the environment but its the best for performance. Anyway you can make your car run anywhere you want but the higher it is the more wear it is putting on the engine, this also works in reverse as in driving a cold wayyy too cold puts alot of stress on the car also.


LINY

 

Well, what I posted doesn't mean it wont work...the later year cars with dual fans had a fan switch in the passenger side head. I am sure you can have your fan wired to the fan switch (installed appropriately somewhere, perhaps in place of the EFE switch in the water neck? or maybe the passenger side head?) rather than it being controlled by the ECM Check out the Total Fan Control article by Willie https://www.thirdgen.org/electric_co...pec_mod_single

It has great info. I'm not sure if the earlier model cylinder heads have a provision for a sensor in the passenger side head, but if it does that would be a perfect place to put the switch and then splice it into the fan relay harness.

 

I think some of the LG4's have a fan switch too. I dont think pre 86 do.

summit shows it working for vin code h carbed cars.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...138+4294925008

 

I think people missed what spider said.. yes oem was to designed to run at 220+ but the rad shouldnt be steamin and leaking at that temp or most stock 3gens would. the aluminum stock rad was make with plastic end tanks that are clamped on, if steam and liquid is coming out that seal is shot and pressure is building to high. replace the rad.

 

Just have to put my in. a buddy of mine put stop leak in his Astro van when it started leaking, and it ended up clogging his heater coar (not fun in the middle of winter).

also, a couple months ago, i had to replace my rad cuz the plastic tanks had small cracks in them. mine also sat a lot (how many 84's with 35k do you find?), and the 25-year-old plastic prolly just gave out. it's not hard to check the tanks, since they're clearly visible. hope everything works out well.

 

also while flushing or topping up the coolant, turn the heat on high and on the floor.

 

whitebird is right, if you have your system pressurized (cap on) and the rad is leaking coolant and steam from the sides, its time for a new rad.

Spider, I reread the posts above and I cant figure out if you have a stock alum/plas composite rad or a copper/brass, please let us know.

Stock rads are well know for eventually giving up at the tank seals, I've had it happen to me on 4 different GM cars (including 2 camaros).
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my 87 LG4 still uses the comp controlled set up, no separate fan switch.
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Looks like a direct aftermarket replacement damn thats cheap!, last time I bought one it was about $120 shipped.

If you want to repair/maintain the stock cooling system, that should be OK, make sure it comes with a warranty.

 

I've got that rad on order. I'm going to talk to my buddy about programing the fan to kick in at around 200 instead of daisy chaining the switch in.

 

I'll throw my 2 cents in here too i guess. I have a mild 355 in my 88 and I couldn't get it to stay below 240 in city traffic with the stock dual fans even when I hard wired them to a switch. I ordered a fan and shroud combo from summit. They make an aluminum universal shround that is almost the exact dimensions of the radiator all that I had to do was cut off the top flange and drill new mounting holes to clear the top radiator support. With the 16" fan the car never goes above 190 idling all day long in traffic even when the ambient temperature is 100 degrees. The best part is all together with shipping it was about $125. I would recomend this if you want to add performance parts later on, because the non shrouded factory fans don't move nearly as much air even when they come on exactly when they're suppose to

 

could you post a link?

 

It's been almost 2 years since I bought the parts for my setup. I believe this is an updated kit with some extra junk in it. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

I measured the distance between in tanks on the radiator and ordered the closest fitting shroud they had. If I can find my reciept I'll double check but all you have to measure is the distance inbetween the tanks and the height of the radiator. You want the shround to cover the entire core of the radiator. I won't have the car out of storage for another month. I'm not sure if I have any pictures of the setup as it is now

 

I've got my old radiator out.

Couple of notes:

1.) My old radiators sides were metal, the new rad sides are plastic, so I already know its not going to last forever. My old rad however was definitley shot and that lasted from 86.

2). Is there anything else I should do while I have this thing out other than clean up the general area?

 

It wouldnt be a bad idea to replace your rad cap and upper and lower coolant hoses, unless they are already pretty new.

 

I already replaced them when I started this whole thing

 

cool then put it together and tell us how it does. its always great to hear someone has fixed their problem

almost forgot, dont forget to burp the air out of the system