83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

From another, unrelated thread:

Any more details? Are you getting it packaged as HC-290 or are you just using straight propane? Anyone else tinker with this?

I’ve been thinking of doing this for a long time with my truck, even considered using it to supplement the R12 that’s still in there (It could probably use a few more ounces to operate optimally, but right now it’s just getting into the range where the computer controls will disable the AC occasionally because the pump has to work too hard to/not enough charge.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

My experience is with straight propane and a hint of Iso-Butane. My van has less than 1 lbs of refrigerant TOTAL in the dual evaporator system. A little goes a LONG way. The system took nearly 5 lbs of R12 when new and about 4.25 of R134a.

http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard...rent/4071.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/refrig2.htm

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/r12a-65006.html

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Interesting links Fast355…

Looks like the deal is propane for cooling and butane to carry the oil. I’m curious, did you just rig something to use standard containers with a set of AC gauges and just charge till you have the low side pressure in the correct range (looks like it will be something in the 20-40psi range)? Seems easy enough with the propane, but I’m having a hard time imagining how to do it with butane.

From looking at it the only real reason not to mix it with existing R12 or R134 is that it’s illegal for capture/service reasons…

We should probably attach some disclaimer about if you’re dumb enough to impale yourself with a spoon you shouldn’t even consider playing with things that are flammable/explosive, which should probably mean you should stay away from 90% of what is under the hood of the car, hell the fuel system is more dangerous…

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Actually both propane and butane will carry the oil. Butane is typically mixed in to help slow the boiling of the propane and more closely mimic the pressure/temperature curve of R-12. Propane will even carry Pag oil, or atleast has not caused any trouble in over a year and 10,000 miles on my GM Express van.

The low side pressure will run about 60-70 PSI at idle and around 30-40 PSI at speed with more air over the condensor.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I know this is an old thread, but I just want to give an update to this. If you set yourself on fire with this...you were a victim of darwins theory.. A 50/50 mix of Propane (R-290) and Isobutane (R-600a) is marketed and used very heavily in Australia under the name Hychill. Since I like meat locker temperature and can deal with the slightly higher energy consumption, I run a little more propane.

http://www.hychill.com.au/tech/en_man.htm

The Express lost the compressor housing O-ring due to the crappy design of the HT6 compressor. It is super common running even R134a. And it leaked pretty rapidly, spraying the valve cover with refrigerant oil while driving. No fireball. I replaced the compressor with an aftermarket, sanden design that bolts to the stock mounting setup. I flushed the whole system, replaced the accumulator and used mineral oil. I recharged it this time with a 60/40 mix of R290/R600a. Because the system no longer cycles as much, it actually blows colder. It takes a little longer for the system to cool down, but the colder air is worth it. It outperforms EVERY R134a system I have ever been around and even feels colder than most R12 systems. The only R12 system that I have felt this cold is my GFs Acura Legend that is still on 12.

The 1983 G20 is still cold as can be. It is still running on the same pure R290 charge that I put in it when I replaced the A/C hoses 2 years ago. I have considered putting a smaller compressor in place of the huge DA6 that is on it to make the system more efficient, but have just left it alone. I may switch it to the 60/40 R290/R600a mix that I am running in the 97.

My 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 has been out of warranty for about 8 months and this last month, the compressor shaft seal went. I flushed the whole system, replaced the compressor, and accumulator. I filled that system with mineral oil. I am running a 50/50 mix of R290/R600a in it as the a/c system is computer controlled. I could not be happier with it. The factory condensor is TINY on this truck and it is Black. It has already been in the mid 80s in the hot texas sun, at idle, 60*F was as cold as it would get. Even running down the road on R134a, it was above 50*F vent temperature. Now the air blows 38*F at idle and about 35*F running down the road. The head pressure sits at only 160 psi and the suction runs around 30 psi, this is on a 85*F, 50% humidity day. The compressor is running around 50% duty cycle. Its the only late model Dodge Ram Quad Cab I have driven that obtains meat locker temperature.

Fullsizewagon

Thanks for bringing this up and adding details. Darwin's theory's great btw..
I filled my system with a propane/butane mix last summer and it worked nice. Didn't record any numbers though. I just used camping gas that had some isobutane in it and mixed it with propane until I had the same pressure as R12 would have at the same temperature. There's some butane in it also and that gives it a bigger "slide" but it works for me.

MY-92-RS

iTrader: (3)

man you guys are nuts I have seen what happens when an A/C system goes boom
there is a little girl I know of guess about 13 now that is alone. Mom & Dad both dead when the A/c system in there Pontiac 6000 station wagon blew up !!! The old man was a big supporter of using R-290 (aka) propane for retrofits almost had me sold on the idea ...
this was several years ago - thg

try R-401 it a blend works well 38* duct temp at idle 47 psi low side 177 psi hi side 96* day mixes with mineral oil no problem NO - KA BOOM ..

cheap too

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am sorry to hear that story, but I doubt its just the propane to blame. All kinds of things can BLOW-UP in a car that is turned into a mangled, twisted wreck in a crash. Basically anything flammable that turns into a vapor on something hot. This can be coolant, gasoline, diesel, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, brake fluid, refrigerant oil, among other things.

OBVIOUSLY you have never seen a R134a or even R12 system go BOOM. I have seen both. I take it you have never seen a GM rigid plastic fuel line fail either.

Before you get all crazy on me here. Realize that a can of hair spray inside a vehicle has more explosive potential than the refrigerant in the A/C system and the stuff in an A/C system is better contained.

So in other words, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time you are going to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnL2I...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3OEuoOgL8g

Quite honestly I am far more worried about this "BOMB" sitting only a few feet behind me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEiC34JRrdw

And there should be no need to remind many Ford owners how flammable brakefluid is when the cruise control switch shorts out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijp14-NmJ40

MY-92-RS

iTrader: (3)

R134 - R12 or R401 and any non HC refrigerant do not Explode !!!! they can react with fire and produce produce a poison called phosgene gas bad stuff .... but Not flammable

now if expose R134a - R12 to more than 60% compressed air and a flame source it will burn

remove flame source and both gases will stop burning

Propane does explode and will continue to burn on it own !!!!!!!


In the case of Tera's Parents Yes Propane was to blame. From the official accident report Department of Public Safety Copperas Cove Texas The Evaporator has a leaked and when the left turn signal was activated the old stile mechanical blinker switch(which all of our third gen's use ) ignited the propane car exploded !!!!!


I braze copper tubing on industrial refrigeration systems all day long while the systems contains some refrigerant.. they will not blow up when exposed to flame from an acetylene torch

try that with propane !!!!!

I am not here to to FLAME or Judge you do as you will ......for today we are a free Nation and we can play and modify our automobiles as we see fit

I just pray that You are not on the Same road as me with your propane A/c system

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The gases will NOT stop burning when they are mixed with refridgerant oil, ANY of them. I can fill a charging cylinder with a mixture of any of the refridgerants you mention, the appropriate refrigerant oil and light it up at will.

On top of that, you seem to think that a sealed system with a leak will explode. Also an evaporator leak that allows enough propane to leak into the vehicle to explode will give off the putrid odor of propane.

Propane will not EXPLODE unless it is mixed with enough oxygen to support combustion.

R134a at a slightly higher than atmospheric pressure is EXPLOSIVE when mixed with air.

MY-92-RS

iTrader: (3)

From My prior post

I braze copper tubing on industrial refrigeration systems all day long while the systems contains some refrigerant.. they will not blow up when exposed to flame from an acetylene torch

let me see if I hook R-134 or R-12 or any other NON HC refrigerant to my propane barbecue grill I am willing to bet I can't get it to ignite

HMMM.....???


I teach Industrial refrigeration all day long

bottom WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS DANGEROUS a very miner collision could cause your car to blow up
any leak of any kind and the result could be deadly there are safer ways of improving A/C performance. that is all I am trying to say

DO your HOME WORK A-1 Refrigerants do not blow up A-3 does !!!
I am telling you there are safer refrigerants than propane !!!

R 134a sucks no one will argue That
however unless you mix it with 60 % compressed oxygen it will not Burn.
Use a Vdot orifice tube, veritable displacement compressor,hell throw in a parallel cross flow condenser easy to find in wreaking yards just need to know what you are looking for (Our cars use tube and fin condensers not very efficient)

try R-401 I think you will be pleased with the results and it is less dangerous




bottom line

PROPANE IS MORE FLAMMABLE THAN ---
R-11
R-12
R-22
R-123
R-134
R-152 A-2 By the way still better than A-3
R-401
R-402
R-404
R-408
R- 500
R-502

there are many more ....
you remind me of my students that would argue with the wind because they missed a test question and bend any fact they could to try and win










I am done with this conversation

CG

pigheaded

I've been using a blend of 290 and 600A for auto AC for over 35 years.
To answer your question about cooling and carrying oil.
The answer is they both are excellent refrigerants and they both carry the oil just fine.
I use the blend in the R-12 designed systems. The blend is roughly 73% R-290 and the rest R600A.
To the uninitiated R-290 is just clean unscented Propane. The R-600A is clean dry unscented ISO Butane.
In my home systems I use the straight house hold propane.
The sent agent in Propane is Mercapitin. As it is Sulphur based I use a 100lbs raised about six ft off the ground and let gravity feed it to a 30lb refrigerant recover bottle.
As it is feeding by gravity I run it through three dryers to remove the moisture content as the Mercapitan is sulphur based it makes sulphuric acid with moisture. Now that's a good reason to dry you system out. Doncha think?
If you want to pay more for it just buy it on line from a company called Enviroeze.
I buy the blend from them because it's easier to buy than to blend and dry.
They add a odour I do not what is but it smells like flowers.
In this house I have two systems.
For downstairs I have a 3.5 Ton package heat pump. It has Propane "dried by me" for over three years.
The split unit for upstairs has had Propane for over 10 years.
It's a little old so I'm buying compressor and evaporation coils designed for Propane to replace it.
Actually the condenser will use creek water instead of air. I built a water cooled exchager once about 20 years ago and after getting a bill for over $400.00 in July with the new home built system with R-290 and water cooled condenser my bill for August was just over $275.00.
So there. Water cooled/R-290 only around here!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have a 15,000 BTU window unit that I recovered the R134a from and replaced with R290. It uses nearly 2 amps less, while blowing colder air and has a quicker pull down when the compressor cycles on. I use it to keep my bedroom 68*F in the middle of summer when my house unit is set for 78*F. Previously I had been keepingthe house 74*F. The difference was an average of over $75 a month cheaper bill from April though October in a higher average temperature than the year before while sleeping more comfortably. A win all around.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Those of you talking about using regular propane or a propane and something else mix, what are you using to do the fill? Can this literally be as simple as rigging up something to hook up a propane tank to a refrigeration gauge/hose setup and topping off the existing system with it?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You are going to have to use something to dry the propane and butane. What comes for cooking gas/ligther refills is "wet" or still has moisture. The dessicant style air line dryers/filters used for hooking up to an air compressor for painting a car work well. They are cheap from Harbor Freight as well.

http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-...ter-68215.html


I also have a tank I use as a mixing cylinder. Keep in mind Propane can have Butane already in it, you have to use a pressure/temperture chart to really know how much.