pentiuman

Last month I bought a 91 GTA w/ the stock 350 TPI, from a towyard auction (just $375). Previous owner was an idiot crackhead who apparently let it low on oil and water. Towyard said the block must be cracked, but the previous owner said it was just a heater hose or something! I put in 3 quarts of oil and about a gal. of antifreeze, which leaked slowly from the waterpump area. I charged the battery and fired her up for about 30 seconds. Engine sounded fine, (no knocks or anything apparent), but as I knew it was leaking water, I turned it off. Below the engine I then found the biggest puddle of greyish liquid I've ever seen come from a car. Didn't know if it was a mix of oil and water or not, nor did I know exactly where it came from. The driver side of the lower block (beneath exhaust manifold) seemed wet with oil. I'm no mechanic, but seeing how the engine was extremely low on both oil and water when I bought it, I figured the engine had been overheated, had a cracked block or warped head at the least, and with the 140k miles, figured I'd better take it out and change it. (Neighbor said it had probably thrown a rod through the block, but this didn't seem likely, as it ran fairly smooth for the 30 seconds I heard it).

Money is tight, and since I don't even know if the transmission is good, I figured I'd jack her up and look for more engine and transmission condition clues. That's when I noticed that the oil filter gasket was sticking out, and the filter was loose. My hopes raised that maybe the engine wasn't ruined, and that I just had a bad waterpump and a loose oil filter. So, I drained the oil, and (in my other car) took it to a mechanic that I trust, who said that it
may have light condensation in the oil from the car sitting for months, but that it didn't look like antifreeze was in it. So, I bought a new waterpump, thermastat, oil filter, etc.

At home, I drained the antifreeze from the radiator, and it was green and did NOT have oil in it.
HOWEVER, when taking off the old oil filter, I noticed:
A. Some antifreeze drops (leak) from the oil cooler rubber hoses at the oil cooler end, and
B. When I started to pour out the oil in the oil filter, there was clearly some green antifreeze in it.

I went ahead and changed the thermastat and the waterpump. In the morning, I was going to change out the rubber hoses on the oil cooler, when it occurred to me that perhaps the oil cooler could be bad, and I should replace or remove it. I theorize that a bad oil cooler could explain how antifreeze could get in the oil, but not the other way around (no oil in
the antifreeze system). My understanding is that the oil cooler is optional, that I can unscrew it from the engine, and plug the antifreeze lines to it. Then I'll fill the car with antifreeze and oil, start it for a few seconds, (though not long enough for the antifreeze to heat up and circulate), look for leaks of any kind, and drain the oil. Based on the oil's condition, I may know more at that point, but I will likely refill the engine with fresh oil, check the antifreeze level in the radiator, and repeat the process, except letting the engine warm up this time. Obviously, if I then find oil in the antifreeze, or vice versa, I
will have eliminated the oil cooler as the problem.

QUESTION / ADVICE NEEDED:
Anyone had their oil cooler go bad, letting antifreeze get into the oil?
What can I do to avoid ruining the engine further, in trying to determine the existing damage, short of removing the engine? (I.E. If the true cause is a cracked block or warped head, not a bad oil cooler).

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks everyone!

jwscab

the oil cooler can certainly go bad, it has what looks like a tiny radiator in it. A pin hole leak in it could describe what you are seeing with the oil filter, but its kind of concerning that you saw the 'milkshake' puddle on the ground.

the first thing you should do immediately is drain the oil and look closely at it. If all you see is a tiny amount of coolant floating in the oil, you are probably OK, and can then remove the oil cooler, cap off the coolant lines running to it, and put a new filter adapter on it, and use a standard pf1218 oil filter. The filter adapter is definitely necessary, and should come with the 2 bolts to bolt it where the cooler fit.

if you see gray/brown 'milkshake' when you drain it, you are probably out of luck. If it were me, I would remove the cooler, refill with fresh oil, cross my fingers, and hope that the bearings aren't ruined, and the cooler was the problem.

if the 'milkshake' shows back up in around 30 minutes of run time, the engine may be cracked, or a headgasket can be shot. You won't know until you remove the cooler and fill with fresh oil.

good luck! You have some things going for you, in that the engine sounds OK still, you might just have some trace bearing damage that would be unnoticeable with a good film of oil on it.

hey, its not too bad anyway, since the car was pretty cheap, right? Thats how I would look at it......

pentiuman

(Sent by PM too). Thanks for your advice on my oil cooler / or cracked head? problem! I'm currently still carefully scraping the old gasket material off the block to install the new waterpump. Just stopped to take a break and check this thread. I'll definitely be asking at the part shop for the adapter after I remove the stock oil cooler - didn't know I'd need one. Hope they know what it is and have one. Do you imagine it's a standard part that any auto parts store should carry? I've also got to decide whether to leave the metal oil cooler lines in place, and just route a rubber hose from one to another. I haven't even looked at them close to determine where they originate - both from / to the radiator I would guess?

Again - thanks for your help! Yeah, worst case is the block is bad, but I'm glad I'm trying these things first. It occurred to me that if my oil cooler is bad, I could have put in a new engine, and ruined it! So, every little bit of help can be a lifesaver. Thanks! Don
pentiuman2000@yahoo.com

pentiuman

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but if the engine (block or head(s)) proves to be bad, I then need to decide if the right thing to do is replace the engine, or "cut" my potential losses, try to find someone to buy the car whole, and buy a different one. This is a 91 GTA and all month I've been trying to determine if it would ever become a collectable. Most junkyards have no parts, claiming there's not a market for it, but I disagree, based on the price of parts when you do find them. The Kelley Blue Book value in fair condition (running) is at least $1,800, and a fellow member sold his (running) for $2,550. I think they should be worth more than that, but maybe I'm just a biased Firebird lover??? There were only 2,035 1991 GTA's built, and only 222 in my brilliant red metallic paint. Furthermore, the Banshee front style of the 91 and 92 is unique (IMO), with roots to Delorians original vision of the car from the early 1960's. Also, 1992 was the last year of this 3rd generation, so (IMO) 1993 and newer Firebirds may end up being in a different category of value / collectability in the future, as they age.

-But asking fellow thirdgen members how rare a car is, is kind of like asking a mother if she thinks her baby is cute (of course she does).

pentiuman

- (PM too) Thanks for the advice. But, I just spoke to Advance Auto Parts, who said they don't think you can take off the stock oil cooler on my GTA's 350, so there is no adapter available. Maybe they're wrong - don't know yet, put a call into a Pontiac dealership and waiting for them to reply, (while I slide under there to check things out). I'll post what I find. If anyone KNOWS different, please post. Thanks everyone!

Apeiron

Yes, you can take the oil cooler off. Over the years GM made millions more engines without the oil cooler than with.

jwscab

Replying for the PM's you sent (which I see you have left as messages here as well....

here is the part number for the adapter:

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...D&ProdID=82943

the notes say 'not for engines that use coolers' but what they mean is that to use the external cooler, you can't use this adapter. This is what has been used since the beginning (well....when they moved to a spin on filter).

good luck....

Apeiron

No need to pay that much for it, though. It should be a readily available used item from the junkyard or a machine shop.

pentiuman

Yes, I PM'ed you, to more quickly ensure a response, but posted too, in case anyone else was reading and could chime in. Thanks (A LOT), but..., the Pontiac dealership never called back (yet), so I'm sitting here babysitting the phone. Since my usually correct Advance Auto Parts guy said different, I'm still a bit confused and eager to know more. I don't mean to question your knowledge, (you're probably right, so bear with me please), but this is a very important matter for me and my engine, so I want to be sure. I totally agree with you that the oil cooler, a dealer OPTION, (which sits between the block and the filter), is surely removable (making the Advance Auto Parts guy wrong). When one unscrews the oil filter, (which seems to be the normal screw on type, albeit short), you see the oil cooler, and at the end of it (after the threads the oil filter screws on), the oil cooler has a fitting which a wrench of yet undetermined size, should be able to turn, clockwise or counterclockwise. (I don't yet know its exact size, around 1 inch, nor do I have a socket or wrench that will fit it yet).

Assumming the oil cooler is in fact removable, and I want to remove it from my system, are you sure an adapter is even necessary? (When I get the oil cooler off, I'm sure I'll see for myself, so for now, I'm thinking aloud). What I'm really "asking" is, why GM didn't design the oil cooler to screw directly onto the block, just like an oil filter would? What kind of uses is this adapter for? (I haven't seen an oil cooler before, nor have I ever looked closely at an ordinary engine block without an oil filter on it. I usually just change my oil regularly and don't notice the details unless there's a problem. On most non oil cooled GM engines, if, for example, one was to mess up the oil filter threads, would that part be removable, or is it part of the block???

I probably sound stupid, but I'm learning, I'm grateful, and I hope to post half as many posts as you, to help other people. THANKS!!!

Apeiron

It is if you want to be able to install an oil filter.

If the oil cooler sandwich adapter was threaded on, the hose connections could be pointing in any direction when the adapter was bottomed out on the block. The way GM (and every other aftermarket oil cooler manufacturer as well) did it, the adapter can be installed with the hoses in the right direction.

john1784h@yahoo

iTrader: (7)

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...D&ProdID=82943

That adapter looks like the one that fits into the block, and to which the oil cooler adapter screws onto, on my 1989 350(all stock stuff). I have been wondering if its possible to simple remove the oil cooler adapter and screw on the oil filer directly. Seems simple enough, but when the oil filter is screwed on using only that adapter there is about >1/4" of space all around to filter, and I don't know if there should be that space. Don't want to make a simple mistake and ruin the engine, or spend 35$ on a part that I already have. Thoughts?

jwscab

this is the same question Pentiuman originally asked. IF you remove the oil cooler adapter, you NEED this other adapter in order to use a filter. PF35 or PF1218 are the ones to use (ther is another one I can't think of thats huge that also fits, but its too long in some chassis'). 1/4" around the outside edge of the filter sounds about right.....maybe slightly less, it's irelevant, the gasket of the filter seals against the block inside.

pentiuman

john1784h - DISCLAIMER: I am not a trained mechanic and do not have a lot of mechanical experience. You should not take my comments to be facts to be relied upon. They are merely observations, guesses, assumptions, and conclusions that may or may not be accurate. I do not want you to ruin your engine due to my bad avice. So, I suggest you go ahead and buy the part(s) called for. However, I do want to be helpful, so here's my thoughts and understanding on this issue.
Short answer: I think you'll find it's the very same adapter, but different bolts that attach it to the block, but again, I could be wrong.

jwscab and Apeiron - Please read this and comment. This oil cooler adapter / engine oil filter adapter issue is important, and we still need and value your help. Thanks!

1. My old engine was definitely cracked on the passenger side rear. Apparently the waterpump was failing, and the antifreeze hoses to the oil cooler were leaking, and the previous owner just kept adding pure water (no antifreeze), which severely cracked the block in winter, pushing it outward. Once I got the engine out, there was no doubt.

2. Advance Auto Parts was definitely wrong about the oil adapter (and/or oil cooler not being removable. Both are removable (obviously). This contributed to my doubts and questions.

3. As you may know, the oil cooler, (which screws onto the engine oil filter adapter, which in turn is bolted to the block), comes off. After removing the oil filter, beyond the male oil filter threads is a large "nut" fitting in the center that unscrews, revealing this is all on a long shaft that goes through the center of the oil cooler, and has a female fitting with threads that screws onto the engine oil filter adapter's threads. I didn't initially realize that the oil cooler came off because my crescent wrench wasn't adequate to fit on and remove this large, inset "nut" fitting. Also, the factory and Chilton manuals don't cover this part. I believe I used a 1 1/16 deep socket to remove it and the oil cooler. Once I removed this large and long center shaft, a "C" keeper fell out, to which I was unsure where it belonged, if not on the shaft in its grove.

4. Is it possible to remove the oil cooler adapter and screw on the oil filter directly? Yes, to the best of my understanding, I believe so, but you must replace the 2 long bolts used with the oil cooler, w/ the 2 correct sized bolts found on a stock engine that doesn't have an oil cooler. The bolts are different, with different heads and possibly lengths. If you use the existing bolts to hold on the engine oil adapter, I'd be concerned it would keep the oil filter gasket from seating, and you'd lose all your oil! Perhaps this is what you've already deduced?

Between the block and factory oil cooler is an "engine oil filter adapter". I went to the dealership, the junkyard, Pace Performance online, and various auto parts stores. I almost bought the one from Pace Performance after speaking with them, but didn't. I went to the junkyard, found a Chevy small block engine, and removed its engine oil filter adapter and two bolts that attach it to the block. When I got home, I was surprised to find that it had the very same part # as the existing adapter used on my Firebird's 350, the same part # at Pace Performance, and the dealership (who had trouble finding the part without the above part#). I eventually found that all sources seem to show the engine oil filter adapter part # (GM) stamped on it is 3952302. I have the part and bolts in front of me now. Again, only difference to me appears to be the bolts that attach the engine oil filter adapter to the engine.

(So, I do not understand why Pace Performance's website states that it's not for engines that use an oil cooler, and/or why they do not just sell the 2 bolts and instructions?)

When the engine oil filter adapter is used with the oil cooler, it appears to use different bolts. If this is accurate, and you can simply remove the oil cooler, screw in 2 replacement bolts on the engine oil adapter, and screw an oil filter on, then the other thread posters are only half right.

I am only 99% sure, because, in my case, although I initially removed the cooler and installed the oil filter adapter and 2 bolts from the junkyard, I ended up re-using the oil cooler, oil adapter, its bolts and "C" keeper and all parts off of my old engine. (new rubber hoses and clamps of course), onto my new engine. One reason that I did this was that, when I was trying to prime the oil into my new engine, I wasn't getting oil to the passenger side head, so I put the oil cooler adapter back on, in case this resolved this potential issue. It didn't, but once I had spent the hours to clean up and paint my oil cooler, and it's metal lines, I decided to use them. I have not yet put enough time on my new engine to decide if my oil cooler does in fact leak or not.

Sidenote: As you may know, the oil cooler has two, connected metal lines which carry the antifreeze coolant under the engine. These metal lines are bolted to the side of the oilpan, but even after removing this bracket connection, I was not able to remove these metal lines with the engine still in my car, despite twisting it every which way but loose. (I could have sawed the metal lines in half, but opted not to). Accordingly, I had to make the choice on whether to use the oil cooler before installing the new engine, so that it's oil cooler lines could fit in first. (For ease, I installed the oil cooler, it's rubber hoses, metal lines, and attached it to the new engine).

I have not yet driven my new engine much, nor have I tested it. So, I am still very much interested in getting to the absolute facts on this issue. MAYBE IM WRONG! It's quite possible. The dealerships parts records were incomplete, auto parts stores had no clue, Pace Performance's website seems contradictory on this issue, and the info from the other posters in this thread seem to indicate that you need a different engine oil filter adapter, (not just different bolts, as I think). Furthermore, although the identical engine oil filter adapter that I removed from the junkyard engine merely had an oil filter on it, there's no telling if they had already removed an oil cooler and rigged it with a couple bolts they found. Lets get to the bottom of this important issue.

THANKS EVERYONE!

Edit: (More info). With the oil cooler installed, I've been given the shorter AC Delco PF454 oil filter. (It's my understanding that you can use the longer filters if you remove the oil cooler, as others state).

pentiuman

FYI - The Pace Performance link listed earlier in this thread to the engine oil filter adapter, part #3952301, at $32.95 is one digit off the actual GM part # casting 3952302. Don't know why. Also, as it says, it does not include the 2 bolts (order seperately). Furthermore, it says that it does not require a gasket. It also says that it fits 1968 -1990 big block engines too (in addition to our 1968-2000 small block engines).

HOWEVER, I called Pace Performance to ask them some questions, and I later discovered that this is contrary to another engine oil filter adapter they sell, made by "Mr. Gasket", part # MRG1272 for $ 23.95 http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=109109
This engine oil filter adapter which appears to be the same part, includes the two bolts, costs less, includes a gasket (why, if the other part info says it doesn't require one), and says it fits 1969 to 1990 big block engines (in addition to 1968 - 2000 small block engines).

Maybe I'm reading some things wrong, but it's discouraging when manufacturers and suppliers have incorrect info. I also already don't trust any Mr. Gasket parts, after I ordered a replacement oil dipstick and tube from O 'Reilly's, and it was the wrong one. The parts catalog said the dipstick and tube fit my car, but when it came, it was quite different than the original, much shorter, and the packaging on the part itself stated it fit different years. Lucky I kept my old one, and compared it before leaving the store. Otherwise, it could have caused me to under or over fill my engine oil!

jwscab

you are definitely making this very hard on yourself. The cooler adapter requires it's two special bolts (have a large stub end above the hex) and the additional fitting that helps to attach the filter itself, along with a few gaskets.

in the pace link above, it specifies which bolts to use, part number is right in the description. No gaskets are necessary. So to completely replace the cooler adapter with the old style adapter, you need that adapter and 2 bolts. DONE.

If you wanted to do this cheaply and quickly, all you have to do is reuse the cooler adapter, and not hook up the coolant lines. The coolant lines would need to be removed from the system completely (done on the passenger side).

the cooler lines are held on the engine in a few places, and are not easy to get off with the engine in the car.

pentiuman

jwscab - By your above reply, you seem to have different opinions / preferences than me. In that case, that is fine, I respect that, and have no problem. Opinions and preferences aside, the problem I had with your posts was that you have not quite addressed the main issue at hand - that I faced upon doing some research and user john1784h asked,

"I have been wondering if its possible to simple remove the oil cooler adapter and screw on the oil filer directly."

I (pentiuman) wrote, "Yes, to the best of my understanding, I believe so, but you must replace the 2 long bolts used with the oil cooler, w/ the 2 correct sized bolts found on a stock engine that doesn't have an oil cooler. The bolts are different, with different heads and possibly lengths. If you use the existing bolts to hold on the engine oil adapter, I'd be concerned it would keep the oil filter gasket from seating, and you'd lose all your oil! Perhaps this is what you've already deduced?"

Again, I (pentiuman) found that the existing engine oil filter adapter, GM part # 3952302 WAS ALREADY ON MY ENGINE BLOCK, between the cooler and my block! After hours of research and questions, I found that the only thing needed when eliminating the oil cooler (and the additional fitting / shaft that goes through it), was different bolts for the existing engine oil filter adapter. Therefore, I was confused when you (jwscab) previously advised me to put a new (engine oil) filter adapter on it, and you wrote, "The filter adapter is definitely necessary, and should come with the 2 bolts to bolt it where the cooler fit."

You (jwscab) seemed to repeat this incorrect advice (that a new engine oil adapter) was absolutely required when you wrote, "the notes say 'not for engines that use coolers' but what they mean is that to use the external cooler, you can't use this adapter."

You (jwscab) further wrote, "IF you remove the oil cooler adapter, you NEED this other adapter in order to use a filter."

Again, as far as I can tell, since the part #'s are the exact same, and the parts look identical, they are the same. Do you realize that the engine oil adapter used on the stock oil cooler setup is the same one used with no cooler??? If you believe they are different, please state the different GM part numbers! I (pentiuman) think Pace Performance notes regarding its use on engines that use oil coolers must be wrong. I have the (presumably) original GM oil adapter part #3952302 on my car, with the oil cooler installed. I have a 2nd GM oil adapter part # 3952302 on my desk, that I got from the junkyard, after removing just an oil filter. Pace Performances website pictures further currently show GM oil adapter part #3952302. My local Pontiac dealership only list one engine oil filter adapter, regardless of the optional cooler. Am I missing something? In conclusion, I will continue to believe they are the exact same adapters until someone can actually point to the existence of two different parts!!!

I humbly apologize if you know that the engine oil adapters are the exact same, and you just meant to advise us that, to play it safe, and to ensure that we get the correct bolts, and/or an adapter with a clean bypass valve, that we buy both the engine oil filter adapters and bolts new. This would be good advice that I repeated to john1784h.

You (jwscab) wrote, in part that "No gaskets are necessary. the part # is right in the description". However, you didn't explain the discrephancies! The Pace Performance website has the discrephancies I list in comparing their two engine oil adapters regarding the years the part fits, the part #, and whether a gasket is needed.

One thing we seem to agree on is that: It's very difficult to get the metal oil cooler lines out, with the engine in the car, without cutting them in half or something. (I was removing my old engine anyway, so after an hour of struggling with the lines, I left them until later). Then, when I decided to fully use the oil cooler on my new engine, I made the wise decision and installed the lines (on the engine) before installing the new engine.

Difference of Opinions / preferences: If one wants to do it cheaply and easily, you suggest they just reuse the cooler adapter and not hook up the coolant lines. Yes, that would work. No argument here. But in my case, I was concerned that my oil cooler may be leaking, and concluded that if it was, it may be possible for oil to leak out of the cooler. Also, I wanted to use a full capacity oil filter, which I assumed (perhaps wrongly) isn't possible with the oil cooler on. I also hated the thought of having a defective and heavy part installed that didn't work. Therefore, if I chose not to use the oil cooler, (a choice I didn't make) I thought it best to completely remove the oil cooler and lines (re-routing the coolant lines on the passenger side appropriately). Both of us have valid points in this regard.

Finally, whether it is better to just spend $35 and get a new engine oil adapter and 2 bolts (as you suggest), or to re-use the exact same existing engine oil adapter and just buy 2 new bolts, the only parts required, is also an opinion.

Please forgive me if this is a matter of language and terms, and a misunderstanding. Thank you.

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Pentiuman, how did your oil cooler look when you had it off, was there a lot of corrosion or any damage to it from coolant that you could see? I bypassed the coolant lines to the oil cooler last month on my `88 Iroc and can`t decide whether to remove it or not. I have not found any rebuild/replacement parts for these oil coolers am I am convinced that if coolant has been flowing through it for 20 years it has to have some sort of wear. Apeiron knows what he is talking about. I have used his advice many times and never found him to be wrong.

john1784h@yahoo

iTrader: (7)

Pentiuman: you got exactly what i was thinking/asking! after taking my oil cooler off and looking at the adapter that fits to the block, i noticed it looked suspiciously like the same one pace was trying to sell. so...same adapter to the block(part #3952302), different bolts, goodbye oil cooler.

pentiuman

-jimdutro There was a lot of rust on the outside of the oil cooler lines that ran under the engine. (I spent hours grinding the rust off and repainting them to look new). However, the oil cooler itself didn't look bad, inside or out. I suspect the antifreeze kept it from rusting on the inside, and oil residue (from oil leaks in a 16 year old car) kept it from rusting almost anywhere on the outside. It still even had a parts sticker on the outside. The inside of the oil cooler looked like stacks of metal plates, tarnished a little yellow, but no real buildup. Again, I originally wasn't going to redo the lines and put the cooler back on. My opinion is that the oil cooler is inefficient at cooling the oil, is unneeded in my ordinary street driving, and could potentially be a liability if it leaks. The only reason that I put it back on, and kept it on, was that I was concerned that I wasn't getting oil to the passenger side head, and that it could be potentially interupting that oil flow, and/or reducing the oil flow to the drivers side head. But I don't think that is the case now. Also, I spent hours redoing the line and it looked too good to throw away.

Since you've already bypassed the oil cooler, if I was you, I'd remove it. (After satisfying yourself that you have the correct oil adapter parts for proper oil pressure and flow). Or if you like, buy a replacement oil cooler. I saw several on Pace Performance's website. Mine was held on by 1 or 2 oil pan brackets and bolts, and perhaps (?) a bolt on the passenger side into an old, unused mechanical fuel pump. (Mine has an in-tank electric fuel pump).

Of course I appreciate everyone's posts. But since you mention it, in this thread, it was jwscab (not Apeiron) that I believe may be wrong (or we're having a miscommunication). I'm saying that the GM engine oil adapter on my engine with an oil cooler, is the same GM engine oil adapter from a junkyard engine that didn't have an oil cooler, as well as the only one listed by my Pontiac dealership, as well as the GM engine oil adapter that Pace Performance sells. (Pace Performance also sells a "Mr. Gasket" version that looks slightly different, but is suppossed to be the same part). Comparing the 3 GM parts was easy, because one is currently on my car (under the cooler), one is on my desk now, and a 3rd is a current picture on the Pace Performance website. I'm only saying that it's possible I'm wrong, because it's possible. I didn't buy the car new. I don't know if the junkyard engine that I took the identical adapter off, had been modified or original. And, my local Pontiac dealership's records on 16 year old cars is surely not perfect.

- To me, it's not important who's right, it's important what's right. Personally, I'd rather be wrong, look like a fool, and learn something, than to think I'm right, have everyone (erroneously) think I'm right, but actually be wrong. So, I am always eager to discuss differences and reconsider my beliefs. This is a character strength. Sure, I ask a lot of questions, and to people that don't know me, I may appear to be less knowledged than I am. I just feel more comfortable on unusual or critical engine parts if I have help.

In my engine project, (my 3rd in my life), I made several mistakes, and learned a lot. When my friends weren't to be found, I hired a mentally retarded young man that's a friend of mine to help me do the things that require or are easier with 2 people. Many mechanical statements he made were naturally wrong, as he's inexperienced, but even he made a couple statements contrary to mine that turned out to be correct. So, I'm reminded never to underestimate or quickly discount the views of others. A good teacher can usually learn something from the worst student in their class. People considered to be experts in their field make mistakes. Judges, doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Think of the History Channels show, Engineering Disasters. Educated, well experienced and degreed experts and construction folks ignored obvious flaws and signs ordinary people would be concerned about.

jwscab

OK, I think I missed the part where you said the adapter that I keep pointing out was already on your block. There is obviously a difference between the oil coolers GM has used. It has been awhile since I looked at the iroc (last year), and GM has made various oil coolers over the years. I know the cooler on the camaro uses coolant. I also know other coolers actually pump oil out of them to a small radiator, and that might be where my confusion lies. I could have sworn the unit I used did not have the 'pace' style (standard) oil adapter on it, and the oil cooler adapter replaced it, but it sounds like i am wrong.

SO, if I have this right now, you already have the correct adapter, but you will need to correct hardware to mount it, such that the bolts do not interfere with the filter. I also suggest NOT using a gasket, it's one less thing to possibly fail.

jwscab

It just came back to me after thinking about this and what you wrote.

You are exactly right (as I said above), I am confusing the two oil coolers, as I was working on an LT1, which was using the remote oil radiator, at the same time I was rebuilding the camaro.

sorry for the confusion.......

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Pentiuman, thank you for the information. Details about these coolers are few and far between.

pentiuman

Thanks jwscab. I guess that explains it. So apparently, GM used the same engine oil filter adapter, (on my 91 L98 GTA) but just changed the bolts when they put a factory oil cooler on. If anyone reading this knows different, please post. Even so, if the wrong bolts are used, I would guess you could lose all your oil and destroy your engine quickly, as you realize, so this is an important finding / conclusion. Thanks again for your help. When I re-read my very first post, I certainly sound clueless, so I understand how this could happen.
------------------------Read on, if you dare.
- I'd never seen (or heard of) an oil cooler before I got my 91 GTA 3 months ago. Also, the prior owner of my car definitely rigged things wrong, with tape instead of fixing stuff. His negligence in replacing the waterpump and maintaining antifreeze levels destroyed the engine. So, he didn't know what he was doing and could've easily have the wrong parts on, which contributed to my confusion. Please note that I didn't post a follow up on this old thread until I was prompted by an auto post where someone had the same question and confusion that I did.

FYI - When I showed a trusted mechanic the oil / antifreeze mixture that came out of the oil engine (after it had sat for a couple hours), he erroneously thought it was just condensation. Wrong, I found out later that the block was cracked, big time. His eyesight / judgment must be bad, in a dark garage.

When I showed the Advance Auto Parts guy the loose fit of my new oil pickup tube on my new oil pump, he said it was fine. Wrong, as I felt, others later said it was too loose, and I had to drain new oil, remove the oil pan, and buy and install a new oil pickup tube, clean and reinstall oil pan, retorque bolts, install more oil, check oil, and wonder if I should trust my guts next time when they conflict with other's opinions?

When I went to a machine shop and asked the lead mechanic to install the new oil pickup tube, I explained that I wanted to make sure it was right, because I wasn't getting oil to my passenger side head when priming (and I wanted to eliminate this as a potential cause. He said if I was getting oil to one head, but not the other, it wasn't an oil pickup tube problem, that something was definitely wrong with the engine (which I bought assembled as a long block). When I tried to give him more info and explanation, he felt I wasn't taking his advice, and refused to install the oil pickup tube, throwing the part to the ground! The 1st part may be right, (it wasn't an oil pickup tube problem), but there was nothing wrong with my new engine - apparently turning a priming tool with a hand drill isn't adequate, and/or a hole in the distributor shaft (when installed) links the oil passages. Hey, I could've used this relevant info the first 3 weeks I was trying to figure out this otherwise simple procedure.

Before I rented (free) a harmonic balancer tool kit, the parts guy checked it and said it was fine. Got home and noticed that some of the bolts, the ones I needed, appeared to be bent badly. But, it had been years since I had seen this tool, and the bolts looked newish, so I wasn't 100% positive. Took it back 10 minutes later - that parts guy had gone home, and the next guy said they were bent, and gave me a funny look. (As if I had bent them in 10 minutes, and I knew they were bent and lied). Funny too, because I initially opened the box upside down while nobody was at the parts counter, the many bolts scatterred, we couldn't find some the first few minutes, and he asked me if I was sure that I had returned them all. Yes, I had each in their foam indention!

My new (remanufacturered) engine was built with the wrong (economy)heads, not the factory ones (083 casting) our cars came with originally. Another 3rdgen member had the same problem and returned his engine.

Advance Auto Parts gave me the wrong distributor rotor, one part # off. It was much smaller than the right part, and would have fit on, but never made contact. Lucky I noticed, or I'd have an engine that wouldn't start, due to no direct fault of my own.

I already mentioned how the Mr. Gasket catalog is wrong on the oil dipstick and tube. O'Riellys doesn't care, and didn't care to fix this info in their book. Had to go to the junkyard, where I found all the oil dipstick tubes in Firebirds wouldn't come out. Had to get the same one from a Cadillac, then fought for 3 days to install it. (As others on this forum can testify - no room with A/C).

When I temporarily misplaced the closed baggy containing the single exhaust donut gasket that I had removed when removing the engine, I again had trouble with parts stores. Napa, Advance, and O ' Riellys catalogs all show a donut gasket is required on both sides. Wrong. As the factory manual shows, as I remembered, and as I learned when I later found the parts bag, one side has a donut gasket, and one side is built so it doesn't use one. Had to go to 2 exhaust repair shops before I could confirm this.

I bought a flywheel turner with a lifetime warranty. After a few uses, one day it wouldn't fit on anymore, and appeared bent. Napa looked at it, and said it was fine. I insisted they order a replacement, and when it arrived, sure enough, mine was bent somehow (and they replaced it).

At the junkyard, their parts lookup guy looked at his computer and said my car either had to be a Firebird, OR a Trans Am, not both. What??? I tried and tried to explain that I was pretty sure that a Trans Am is a subcategory of a Firebird. He wouldn't accept that answer, (so I had to say, OK, it's a Trans Am). Who'se the real dummy, the parts guy, or me for arguing with him???

At a different Advance Auto Parts, I tried to buy a set of 20 stock lugnuts for my truck, and I brought in one lugnut. The girl asked me which wheel it came off of, and which wheel they were for! I explained that I wasn't sure which wheel the lugnut I had in my hand had came off of, but was pretty sure that they were all the same, and that I wanted 20 of them (5 per wheel). She wasn't happy with my answer, and asked another associate to help, who asked me the same question! It took about 20 minutes for them to look up the part # in the computer, then they only had 3. I sighed deeply, and just bought a candy bar before going home.

These are just the most memoriable "potholes" that I fell in while doing this project. With my limited (outdated) experience, it's a wonder I ever finished. I'm sure everyone has a similiar story. Thanks for reading mine.

john1784h@yahoo

iTrader: (7)

Update: those bolts you need to switch out to run just the oil filter adapter are 5/16" with an underhead length of .532". I'm going to get some from work (for free ) and take out that oil cooler this weekend. I'm half expecting them to be the same size as those that are in there now...we'll see.

SDIF

I will give you some good advice. Don't argue with the parts man. Most don't know anything but what the books say. Even the best, can't be experts on all cars. Listen to what we are telling you. We know these cars.

My brother and I own a total of 5 3rd gen Camaros. 84 z/28, 86 Z/28, 88 Irock with factory cooler, 91 z/28 with factory cooler, 89 Race Car with no relation to anything factory. I know this car well.

My advice is to take off your "oil cooler" which is nothing other than a heat exchanger designed to expose the oil to hopefully cooler radiator water before it is pumped into the oil passages. The design is not worth a damn. Get rid of it Now. They are prone to failure as you have witnessed and hard as hell to service when they give problems.

Don't ask about how to properly plumb a real oil cooler. Its expensive and you will have to change more than you realize plus find a place to mount a cooler on your car. The one on my race car cost about $500.00 including all the AN hoses , fitttings, adapters etc. It does not leak, it is easy to service and it works and therefore it is expensive.

Go to GM dealer and tell the parts guy you want an oil filter to block mount with bolts for a your model car without a cooler and an oil filter for your car. Buy them put them on problem solved. Game over.