Charged350

iTrader: (1)

ok so i had a 355 built to hold about 20 pounds of boost...its in the car now with no blower...it ran hot with the stock 350 rad, so i got a griffin 31 x19 from summit and a perma cool can that pulls 2900cfm, and it still runs hot, i cut the front of the car apart, it runs a little cooler now, 180 as soon as i get the car moving for air flow but in traffic it creeps to 210....now with the blower on, its gonna get hotter i know that so i was looking for a rad fan combo that can cool this monster i created. i think the circle track rad is the problem too...i also have underdrive pulleys with a stock water pump...a better pump maybe....i dont know...any stock rad from any cars that can fit in there ...any help will be greatly appreciated....

5678TA

you are underdriving the h20 pump? hows your airdam?

a higher flow h20 pump would help too..

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

the crank pulley is smaller, he pump pulley is the same side as stock...and air dam...lol...dont have one...the front is cut up no bumper suport and the hole is about the size of texas...get nuff air....jus when in traffic it heats up...block has drilled out plugs for the heads....need a big *** rad...anyone kno of one for decent money....or sumthing out of like a truck or sumthing that might fit...

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

This is the radiator I bought.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Comes with a free cap of your choice too.

Best $200 I have ever spent.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

thats the rad i have right now...still overheats....maybe an electric water pump will help...

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

You have more than water pump problems then.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I thought the air damn was the key to cooling our Camaro's once the vehicle is in motion????
I'm just having the finishing touches done to my new 355 with underdrives and the stock radiator needs replacing. Do anyone of us know if we really need a 4 core aluminum unit? They sure can vary in price......
Nitro

Stekman

If it comes down to NEEDING a 4 cure, I'll take a dual pass over a 4 core. But no, not needed. I've had a stock piece cool my 406 (which isn't exactly a street motor), all day long in stop and go. As long as the rest of the system works the way it needs to work, it functions just fine.

Underdriving the water pump: not my first choice.

5678TA

the air dam wont help when the car is in traffic.. where this guys overheating problem is..

but yes, the air dam does alot when the car is going..

Stekman

I'm talking about radiators. Not air dams. I know what an air dam does.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

You may be talking about radiators, but 5678TA wasn't talking to you slick.
He was refering to Neagan.

Anyways, a high volume pump will not solve any problems here. Something is not right. What thermostat are you using? You never did say.

5678TA

i was refering to neagan.. sorry for the misslead..

theres 2 things you shouldnt underdrive: the alternator and the water pump.. not enough charge, not bad but still could cause problems.. not enough water flow, again not bad but the water pump is the main part of the cooling system.. could it be possible that your block is kinda rusted and clogged a bit?

i have a 305 block i pulled from an 84 bird and when i took off the water jacket plugs on the bottom near the oil pan rail, it wouldnt even drip water.. nice caked rust blocking the hole..

an electric water pump would help some since the stocker flows crap and you are underdriving it.. also, get a lower temp thermostat, assuming you dont already have one and drill 3-1/8" holes in the perimeter to aid flowing..

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I have a 386 pushing 460 flywheel horse and I don't over heat even in the dead of traffic on a 95 degree day.

You can skip all of your exotic parts, just leave your stuff the way GM made it. I am an engineer, so I feel good about they way they did it.

1.Stock water pump, aluminum if you want to save weight.
2. NO UNDERDRIVE. That is one of your main problems.
3. 165 degree thermostant.
4.second fan that turns on at 165. (re-wire a stock 91 TPI setup. Thats what I have. I also run a stock radiator).
5. Install that AIR DAM!!!! It was engineered there for a reason. Put it back.
You might not be getting hot when driving, but the car has to work harder to stay cool without it, you are only killing part life by removing it.

With all that said, your car will be running COOOOOLD in no time.

Mine runs at 165 alllll day long, and maybe 180 if I am dead in traffic for an hour. (on a 95 degree day)

hope this helps, check out my CD site if you wanna see what else I have done. Later

-Dennis

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

If you left it the way GM left it, then you wouldn't have a 165* thermostat and you wouldn't have rigged the fans.

There is no need to get engineery, because we are all splitting hairs here. All of these motors run too hot from the factory anyways.

5678TA

03 s-10.. 4.3L runs average 200 from the factory.. untouched

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

yeah, thats fine. 200 is not bad for a a motor to run at.

And what the hell is "engineery"????

I improved the GM design to accomodate the higher needs of more HP. I didn't change things around. You should keep with the main structure that was engineered into the car.

I guess I am saying use the skeleton of the GM system, but put bigger muscles on it.

e.i.- use a good water pump, good thermo, GOOD dam, good fans and rad. Thats what I do, and it works perfectly.

Can't argue with results. I can make a vid of it if you want.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

You're contradicting yourself. "Don't change things, GM did it right". "Just tweak everything", etc. The thread started because he just wanted a better radiator. P.S., it's "i.e.".

I don't get the "the cars run hot anyway" thing, they're DESIGNED to run hot. Leave it the way GM engineered it (sound familiar?). Running at 165 is going to throw off the ECM and the way it functions. A 180 thermostat appears to be the best middle of the road compromise.

Anyway, to the original poster:
Get a good fan- the dual fan setups seem to work well. A more efficient water pump may make up for the underdrive pulley, otherwise you can just try a normal crank pulley and see if that helps before you sink more money into the car.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

sorry about the e.i. i.e. error.

Anyways. I am most definetly not contradicting myself. If you think that I am, it is because you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

If you want I can start from scratch. Here we go. This is what I ment, in case it was not fully understood.

1. Make sure all the cooling components on the car that are supposed to be there, are there. (air dam)

2. Make sure all the components you do have are working the right way.
(as in make sure you are running puller fans, not pusher and so on)

3. Make sure you have the right vertions of what you need, like thermostat.
(like a 180, as started before. I have a carbed car so I have no ECM, and run a 165)

4. Take off all things on your car that hinder cooling, (underdrive pullies)


If you do those 4 things, you follow the origional GM design. And saying the engineers did a great job right off the bat must be true, because I run a stock pump, stock radiator, stock TPI fans, and run cold. And have a 350 RWHP dyno proven motor.

If there is still any confustion about what I ment and ma happy to explain it further.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

We have an 89 RS with the Edelbrock Hi-Flo pump, Be-Cool rad and stock duel fans in our ProCharged car with intercooler. Never gets over 180 driving and 210 max in trafficin our 80+ summer heat. I also use a 75% water 25% antifreeze and waterwetter combo

Stekman

Being an engineer doesn't make you smarter than anyone else. I see nothing aggressive in your engine that would require the high end cooling.

My SB2 smokes a stock setup. No where near sufficient water flow.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

What I am trying to say is that I don't HAVE any high end cooling parts. Hell I am running all stock parts!!!!!

I just set up a few things differently for my application.

OH and I wanna make it 100% clear that I don't think I am any smarter than you or anyone else. I just know for a fact that the car was designed one way, and smart people did design it. I wouldn't throw away all the work they did by omitting key componenets. Your car is overheating and you don't have some parts that you might need. Why not get the parts, get back up to par, and re-evaluate your problem from there??????

Once there, you can find what part of your system isn't pulling its weight.

Also I never ment to say that my motor is crazy, but it does make about 460HP, and runs in hot *** traffic at 170. So I figured it would be good to imput what I have done.

EGG

the original poster has already said the air dam isn't the problem:

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

You have more contradictions than religion itself. You keep preaching about the way GM designed it but you said you changed the thermostat, and you rigged the fans to work differently. With that said, the cooling circuit has CHANGED and all this silly talk about the GM design means nothing.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I'll get this back on topic with some useful tips/info.

If your running that hot with the parts you have then I would look into other parts of the engine/tune.

I run a crazy amount of under drive on my street, daily driven mid 11 second camaro. (5.5" crank pully, 6.8" WP pulley) Hottest it's got in 3 years was last June.. 218* on a 6 hour straight non stop (other than for fuel) trip through 3 states in 105* temps.

1st and for most.. Is your fan shourded? Does the fan shourd cover atleast 80% of your rad. core? If the answer is not yes to both of those questions then you probbly found your prob.

2900 cfm is just skiming by IMHO. 3000 cfm is bare min for a strong v8.

I run the ford tarus 3.8L single 2 speed elec fan on mine. It has a shourd that covers about 85% of the core on my summit 31" x 19" alum rad. On low speed it blows about 3000 cfm and on high speed is blows about 3800 cfm.

Another big thing is what side do you have the fan mounted on? and how is the fan wired up to turn? For best cooling the fan needs to be on engine side of rad. and wired so fan sucks air through rad and blows on the engine.

Whats your engine tune like. When I was 1st dailing in mine, It ran 20* hotter with only 3* retarded timing from where I ended up having to be. Because of my cyl pressure (212 to 218 psi) I had to limit timing to 34* total. Set at 31* total when I was dailing everything it, the water temps ran 20* hotter than it did when I bumped timing up to 34*.

Whats your air/fuel ratio.. Jetting. Running lean will cause it to run hotter too.

What T stat are you running? Are you running one? You can't just leave the hole in the intake open.. Water will flow through engine too fast to pick up any of the heat. If you don't want to run a T stat then you have to use a plate that fits in the T stat hole, and plate needs a 1/2" to 3/4" hole in the center of it.

How is your lower rad. hose? Cheaper hoses, and hoses w/o the wire spring in them can suck shut and pretty much cut most of the water flow off.

How is your rad. mounted in the car? If you have big wide gaps between the rad and the core support then guess where the air will go. Air will take the path thats easier for it to move along. That means if you have big gaps around the rad then the air will flow beside the end tanks, rather than through the core.

Thats all I can think of right off the top of my head.

jbenge

iTrader: (2)

I agree with what Night rider said, take a look at all the things he mentioned. I also think the fan you are using might be the biggest part of your problem. I bought the same perma-cool fan that you have and my car ran hot. It didn't overheat but the temp would creep up to 210-220 when idling in hot weather. I ended up buying a 16in Spal fan and my car runs cool now. The Spal fan only has a slightly higher cfm rating but feels like it moves twice the amount of air as the perma-cool did so the cfm ratings really don't mean much from my experience. You get what you pay for in fans, I'd look into a Spal or maybe some of the better factory fans that others have mentioned.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

nelapse: Not to waste time here, but you truley are retarted. I can't believe that you are still having trouble seeing my point. If you where here next to me, I would slap you up side your head. Geezzz.

I am frggin saying that you need all the GM parts, and then mod them. Do you not get that??? whats wrong with you???

He needs and air dam, as well as a fan shroud and other things, without them the car will overheat. Wanna know why? Cuz the engineers (that are smarter than you, at least) designed it that way. So get it though your thick *** skul that they know what they were doing and you have no clue.

Again if you don't get it still, I ment, and said to make sure you are running all the parts the car needs, the ones that GM put there, then mod them to move more air.

I didn't change my much, I just wired the fans to turn on 50* cooler, and I changed my 185* T stat to 165. Thats all. Hope you can follow my explanaition nelapse, you are really getting on my last nerve about this stuff.

AGAIN, GM did it right, just make it run slightly colder that they wanted it to. RUN AN AIR DAM!!.

crrllmich

Nel I dont see how you arguing with Dennis is contributing to this thread.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

ok guys everyone calm down now...

let me say this, the motor has strenghtening plugs in the cooling ports to the aluminum heads that have been enlarged and the middle drilled out for flow since its not a strip motor only.

no need for an air dam, the front of the car is cut up, and plated all the way back to the radiator so every ounce of air got to the rad no matter moving or traffic....

the fan has no shroud on it....it only pulls 2900cfm

the motor is brand new, maybe 500 miles on it, so no, its not blocked up water passages...

the water pump is underdriven... can get a electric one and try that

have a 180 or 160 thermostat....dont remember will change for high flow 160

the rad is a griffin circle track one, could that be an issue, do they make a 4 core truck rad that fits in our cars or sumthing....i can get any car part in the world through my shop jus need to know what to get...thanx a lot guys...alex...

RedLava

iTrader: (4)

I had the same problem big 2 inch copper rad, with an air dam, 180 stat, and with single stock fan. I was still over heating in traffic. I got dual LT1 fans and it solved the problem. My opinion is get bigger dual fans. If you had large enough fans it would move the same amount of air as when the car is moving.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

how do the lt1 fans mount....would ls1 fans work....are they any better...

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I know i'm way late in here, but one thing popped into my head and I thought i'd just throw it out there;

You have a shortblock built for 20 psi boost - did they use hard-blok in it? I'm shocked no one asked it already, but i'm assuming they didn't (and you're SURE no one did it?)

Since you don't have the blower on yet, there's no reason for it to run warm with stock cooling system parts in there. Something must be amiss.

Also, make sure the air going through the rad has a nice path to go. The air dam (I know I know, it's mostly in effect on the highway so it's probably not your problem here, i'm just saying...), helps keep a low pressure area behind and below the rad, which basically creates a vacuum behind the rad to suck air through it. Coupled with the fan, it does a great job. But if you had a high pressure area behind the rad, what's motivating the air to go through the rad? Where's the air got to go? Nowhere? Then it's not going to go through it.

IROCWPB

You should probably let everyone know that you're now having to use an external trans cooler now, also, this radiator has one less port on it than our stock radiators do, where are you sending the hot water coming out of the intake manifold?

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

no no hard block used in the motor....and teh pipe from the intake is bypased to the top of the water pump, hwere the line would go if the car had heating....so anyone kno anything about these ls1 or lt1 fans...

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Whats the compression? Timing? Fuel system?

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

cmp is 7.5:1 and timing is perfect...fuel 750 dp holley with 93 octane all the time....

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Back to 4-row / desert cooler type radiators, I have tried them several times in the past because I spent a lot of time driving through California`s upper desert to Reno in summer and wanted better cooling. I found I got better cooling (lower temps)using the old 2 rows than new 4 rows. Go figure.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hey man...I think not having a shroud is bugging me a little bit. Its there to direct airflow to the center of the rad. core. I was really concerned about that when I changed away from the mechanical fan from my 1993 Caprice TBI. I'm not sure if this particular one will fit your application but this is the one I went with from Flex-A-Lite fan...

http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html...-electric.html

It was expensive as hell...dang near 400 bucks....but my car never goes over 200* or so... and I have a 195* T-Stat...it flows around 4600CFM when its on full tilt....it also has a variable speed control that works like a charm. It has a hard Shroud built all the way around the outside of it with a nice quality rubber seal on the edge. My my Caprice Rad...which is very wide...it fits like a glove...with less than an inch of uncovered rad care all around the edges. It fit perfect on the Howe Racing rad. I used to have...there was no rad core showing...it was a perfect fit and I loved it.

Its designed for 350+hp. Its got a temp probe sensor that slides through the fins in the core. Flex-A-Lite says to put it next to the top rad. hose when the coolant is hotest coming out of the engine. I have seen the Mustang guys use the Black Magic fan but put the temp probe dead center of the rad. I don't know if that would work with a Chevy...I just did it how Flex-A-Lite said.

I really think the fan is not up to par...I think that cfm its pulling is not strong enough...that seems to be suitable for a 250hp engine and lower. The LT1/LS1 fans will work...I have seen them on big power B-Body's...but they lack the shroud also...in my mind they are not as efficent. You may need to by an aftermarket fan control of some sort to get it dialed in also. The LT1 fans are good up till 300 hp at least...the LS1 fans are good up till about 400 or so...I believe...don't qoute me though...I am not a GM engineer.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

the car is fine without the shroud...it just needs stronger fans to pull the air when the car is stationary ..which is when it starts to run a little close to 200 on a hot day...now with a blower on this will be a problem...so i figured the problem is airflow...so now i need fans...nasty fans....and i have the griffin 31 by 19 rad for gm....anything that will flow nice...ls1 maybe....flexalite...i dont wanna spend 500 bux on fans...that my blower fund...

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

When the car is idling at traffic it won't be making any boost, and will be making very little heat. A tercel fan would keep it cool then, if it was working right.
I'd look at the Taurus fan setup. $20 at a pick-n-pull wreckers, with it's little shroud. They flow more than most super expensive aftermarket ones. Wire it up to the high speed, use a thermal switch that comes on early, and a 160* stat.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

i was thinking ls1 fans....would that work....

Guest

Charged350 Im not sure if anybody has asked you, but do you have a trans cooler? Sometimes the culprit is the transmission heat.

I would use the rad you have now, If you don't have a trans cooler get one.
Try to get the air dam back in. No matter what you have done it is important and you could easily put it back. You could even get a trans cooler with a fan. Get yourself a better water pump. Use a 160 thermo. If your current fan is flowing more cfm than you might want to stay with that.

Then if you have a trans cooler, Most of the time having the option with the rad having a cooler in it for the trans, you set it up to run through both. That's how I have mine. And my trans cooler is very large. More less the size for a full out huge Rv weight.

My car runs Hot also. However I have a 383ci motor with a SR running Iron heads so, I have the trans cooler and dual fans edelbrock Alum waterpump and everything set up with the ecu and the lower temp sensor and all, But Im running a stock Iroc Rad is my problem. And Im glad that someone dropped that link for the Griffin, Thats really a good price compared to Be cool's and only problem is it doesnt have a trans cooler in the Rad.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I've posted this before, here maybe and in other places. All the stock stuff working right and you will be just fine.

I run aluminum heads. Thats the only difference that I have with you CaliBranden. Oh and I have a 386 with a really big cam and that I am carbed. My motor makes around 450HP and I am running a T-56. I had a 160 thermo and my old stock dual electric fans in, with the second fan wired to a thermo switch that turned it on at 170. The car just couldn't get past 165 though. No matter how hot it was outside. I talked to a buddy with a 1000+HP Chevelle. He told me it is ideal to run around 180-185. So I changed my thermo to a 180 and the fan switch to a 185. Car in 98* weather, stop and go traffic....sweating my ***** off and still car doesn't even think about getting past 185.

Stock TPI rad.
Stock water pump
Stock dual TPI fans
Stock hoses and all
Stock air dam
No A/C condenser

Painless wiring harness for constant on fan
Painless wiring harness with thermo switch for 185
Stock style 180 thermo.

***CLEAN YOUR COMPONENTS***

I went through my system and I literally had 3 stop and shop bags full of leaves in between my rad and condenser b4 I took it out. Rad was filthy so I got a new one for $120. Stock water pump and all, but system was flushed VERY well, and reverse flushed. (take the rad out and stick a garden hose in the other way)

Copy my setup, even if you have an auto. Just get a trans cooler, or order the rad for an auto for a 91-92.

You will run cold. I promise.

MrDude_1

heh.

you dont need a radiator.. you need to fix your problem.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

ok so im gonna try this again..

its a built 355, all forged for boost
alum victor jr heads and intake
huge blower cam
750 double pumper holley
stock water pump
underdrive pulleys
700r4 with an external tranny cooler, doesnt go in the rad
160 thermo
griffin 31 by 19 rad
perma cool 2900cfm fan
huge hole cut in bumper and steel reinforcement removed
air path only goes to the rad, nascar style...

it runs cold as long as it moves but if i sit at a light for a while at 100 degrees outside it starts to creet towards 200 which i dont like....so i figure my problem is airflow....does anyone have any good deals on fans with a shroud for cheap...or would ls1 fans work.

l_dis_travlr

OK charged, after re-scanning all YOUR comments, the most significant
to me was the 8-23 post, that indicates the temp drops back down,
when the vehicle starts moving again. Reasonable conclusion -- you
have enough cooling CAPACITY (radiator, pump/pulleys), there's just
not enough air-flow in traffic cond's. Concentrate on that, i.e. fan
/shroud configuration. With the mods you mention, I assume cleanliness
(leaves etc.) isn't an issue.

My project isn't as rad, but I'm putting it together to keep the wifey
cool (w/ a-c) setting on Houston Freeways, in Aug., and there's no
doubt in my mind, low speed air-flow is the critical component.

Good luck,
kk

MrDude_1

too bad... i bet the engine loves it.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

There is no problem with those temps. I thought you were pushing 230-240 or soemthing like that. Not getting clse to 200*

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

yeah...but it might go up that high if i stay not moving you know....so i kno now the problem is airflow at low speeds....now i jus need to find fans that can move the air to keep the car where is needs to be at low speed...any suggestions.....

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Are you 100% positive that all else is OK? Timing, coolant passages, plugs, all that stuff, even coolant mixture?

Is so then yeah, I guess look for better fans. Get some 91-92 dual TPI fans, and there is NO WAY you will over heat with them.

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

anything aftermarket i can get...or ls1 maybe....anyone...