Supercharged87Camaro

I was just wondering if anybody had a K&N x-stream lid on their air aleaner. I was thinking about purchasing it, but i want to make sure its worth it before i do it. Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks.

The ODB

basically No, not unless your filter is too small for your engine right now.

Your air cleaner lid needs to be at least 3" above the typical 4-barrel carb entry to allow the air to curve inwards without excess restriction. The diameter needs to be roughly 4 to 5 times the height of the filter (this shape is very important for good flow. That means that you probably need an air filter that is at least 12" wide (wider being better).
A K&N is supposed to flow enough air to support 7 horsepower per square inch of filter area.
I was about to calculate out the surface area of the filter to see what size would support a certain horsepower level... but I'll leave that to you.
Generally bigger is better, but certain things are more important than others. If you're dying to spend money then buy a K&N stub-stack, and build yourself a cold-air induction for your air filter. You will get much more power gain.

aaah might as well.
12" X pi = 37.69 (circumference)
37.69 X 3" = 113.09 square inches

113.09 X 7 = 791.68 horsepower

so, suppossedly a 12 X 3 air filter will support almost 800hp without significant restriction (when clean).


[This message has been edited by The ODB (edited February 23, 2001).]

CamaroMike

I have the extreme flow lid and love it! Great if you have low hood clearance. Don't use the stub stack! Mine makes my ET worse by 8 tenths. Even after recalibrating the carb. I have also heard of two others on this board with similar experiences.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

I'm curious because I know the stub-stack works great ( have several of them).

Please tell me what kind of carb you run, and how you recalibrated it.
Sounds like the stack caused you some major problem. I would like to figure out what the problem was.

ODB

CamaroMike

I have an Edelbrock 600CFM Electric choke carb calibrated 8% richer front and rear over the manual choke carb specs. With the stack on I ran a 13.9ET with the stack off and Edelbrock factory manual choke calibrations I ran 13.1ET. My 60 foot times were IDENTIACAL, my 1000FT times were WAY different. Total top end dog with the stack!

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

Mike,
did you run the stack without any calibration changes?

the stack increases signal to the boosters which automatically meter in more fuel.

ODB

The ODB

did you get rid of the stack, or could I get you to try it again under different conditions?

is it for sale?

AlkyIROC

If the stack made your car run worse then your carb is about the right size for the engine. The stack will increase the CFM of the carb. If your car runs better, then you need a larger carb. The stack is just a poor mans way of buying a larger carb but it does work. Unfortunatly the stack won't work on Demon carbs

------------------
Follow my racing progress on Stephen's racing page
and check out the race car

87 IROC-Z Pro ET Bracket Race Car
383 stroker (carbed) with double hump cast iron heads and pump gas
461 Big Block installed and ready for the 2001 racing season

Best results before the 383 blew up
Best ET on a time slip: 11.857 altitude corrected to 11.163
Best MPH on a time slip: 117.87 altitude corrected to 126.10
Altitude corrected rear wheel HP based on power to weight ratio: 476.5
Best 60 foot: 1.662

Racing at 3500 feet elevation but most race days it's over 5000 feet density altitude!
Member of the Calgary Drag Racing Association

87 IROC bracket car, 91 454SS daily driver, 95 Homebuilt Harley

CamaroMike

I did run the stack with no jet changes over factory and there is no difference. It took me over 2 hours to figure what was making my engine run so poorly that night. I was so pissed at that stack I stomped it into little pieces at the track otherwise I would sell it.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

could it have interfered with your air bleeds maybe?

the stack does not force too much air into your engine. The engine still draws what it needs, but the stack adds a smooth radius to the carb entry which increases air velocity and signal to the boosters at the same time.

So if you're already running rich and your carb is too small, then the stack will make it worse by increasing signal to the boosters.

Mike, how did you get it to fit flush into your air cleaner housing? what air filter housing did you use with it?

CamaroMike

I am running an Edelbrock 3 inch drop base air cleaner with X stream flow lid. I also held the stub stack down with a nut to fit flush with the carb.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

Mike,
still curious. What I'd like to know is if the top edge of the stub-stack met flush with your air-cleaner base so that it didn't stick up into the air path?

and did you have the xtreme lid on at the time of testing or a solid lid?

thanks again

CamaroMike

Stub stack stuck up from lid 1/2" and the X-stream flow lid was is place during testing.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

I think I might know what was wrong. The stack's main function is to provide a smooth radius for air entry into the mouth of the carb. If it was sticking up 1/2 inch over your aircleaner base then it cannot work as it should.

Another thing, remember what I stated earlier about required height over the mouth of the carb?
"Your air cleaner lid needs to be at least 3" above the typical 4-barrel carb entry to allow the air to curve inwards without excess restriction. "

Well with the stack in place you would need at least 3" of airspace directly over the stub-stack since it becomes the new mouth of the carb. This may not have been the case with your drop-base air cleaner housing.
The reason for this 3" minimum requirement has to do with the flow characteristics of air. Air cannot turn 90* degrees on a dime to enter the carb. It needs a larger space to make the turn in order to get any good airflow at all. This is an extreme restriction when you go under 3" for this turn. It could easily cost 300cfm or more in airflow @WOT.
If you want to test this for yourself, it is really easy to do next time you're at the track. Flip your aircleaner lid over so that it comes closer to the carb & see what that does to your times.
I have personally seen an fbody with tight hood clearance gain 1/2 second by just removing the hood and putting on a taller air filter. I know the people involved with this test so I could get the timeslips to show if you like. I still encourage anyone to do their own testing though.

Mike, I'm sorry the stack didn't turn out to be such a simple power gainer as you expected. I think that K&N should include more detailed instructions with their product to explain how to get the claimed benefits. I can see why it probably did hurt your performance as you said in your application.

As a note,
I have to modify my stacks in order to fit properly into the aircleaner bases that I use. It takes some time to get right, and I'm planning to produce my own pieces in the future that should include the base itsself and have a perfect fit & entry radius.
Up until now I just modify the stacks.

ODB

CamaroMike

Nice try ODB but the X stream flow lid is an air filter! The whole top of my air cleaner filters air! I also know others that have run no air filter and it made no difference.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

I see the xtreme all over mags & summit, so yeah they filter.

I just checked one of my stubstack boxes. It says on the back of the box

"If the stubstack is installed in an improper housing, the performance may actually drop"

Then below that is a list of K&N filter housings that will work properly with the stack.

CamaroMike

FYI ODB, I called K&N and described my setup to them. K&N felt there would be no problem with the drop base arrangement. The recomended bases are not the only ones that will work. They are just bases that they know will work for sure.

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

The ODB

well that suk'd,

they should've given you your money back.

I'm not completely happy with them either. Like I said it takes me a while to modify them to fit right in my housings. I'm working on making something better anyway. Something that comes as a complete housing... so there's no way it won't work.

jayman350

I was thinking about getting one of the xtreme lids as well but my current air cleaner hits the top. What were you guys talking about with the 3" of clearance above the carb? I am going to need a drop base when I install my new intake (performer or RPM not sure which one yet) Will the xtreme lid be worth it with a drop base k&n, Holley 4160 600 cfm and Edelbrock performer RPM intake?
I would like to make the purchase all at once from Summit so I can get to work on it. Let me know what you guys think.


------------------
Jay

black 85 Z28, t-tops, 4bbl carb, flowmaster 80 series muffler w/ custom tips (hollowed out cat), edelbrock chrome air cleaner, Infinity 4" 2 way front speakers and Infinity 3 way 6x9s, Alpine CDA-7863 head unit. many more mods planned (holley carb 4160 and edelbrock performer intake coming very soon)

Ray87Z

I wonder if my drop base aircleaner is hurting me, I should have tried running w/ no cleaner while I was at the track to see. Between the top of the choke tower and the cleaner lid there is only 1 1/2" of space approx. I doubt that is helping me, lol...

I've thought of getting the xstream lid but I try to avoid getting raped. $50+ bux for the lid??? They're overcharging for that in my estimation otherwise I would have already tried that, looks like a good idea.

I know everyone says the Edelbrock Pro-flo aircleaner thing sucks, but has anyone actually tested it at the track? For $20 I was thinking it might be worth a shot over this drop base cleaner (and it should fit under the hood w/ my RPM intake according to my measurements). Otherwise I have no option on the cleaner other than the xstream lid...


[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited March 15, 2001).]

Ray87Z

Ah well, no go on the Edel Pro-flow thing. It just barely doesn't fit. I picked one up from the local Discount Auto Parts (so I can return it) to give it a try. I could physically close the hood if I wanted to bend the top screen in a little in a couple spots, but then virtually the entire hood is laying across the top of it, blocking any air from coming straight down and in like it's designed to, negating any advantage it would have even if it cleared...

I assume If I build a custom cold air setup, with the filter remotely mounted out near the cold air I would still end up having only 2" inches of clearance over the carb, thus still be screwing me. Dangit, I need a taller hood...

Also apon closer inspection I really only have about an 1 inch of clearance at the front of the choke tower, 1 1/2 at the back w/ my current drop base cleaner (14x3", 1 1/2" drop base). That's gotta be hurting at least my low end, since I can't get enough air for the engine through there on the primaries alone, and probably not enough air velocity fast enough through there to pull the secondaries open down as quick as I bet it could otherwise...

I'm gonna do some quick no-cleaner seat of the pants testing to see if I'm losing anything noticeable w/ the cleaner on there...

Any ideas for a setup OBD?

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited March 15, 2001).]

The ODB

the xtreme lid is to allow extra flow to relieve excess pressure drop inside the housing caused by insufficient filter area for the engine (very rarely the case).
that makes it pretty useless for most people.

you guys posting have another problem worse than excess pressure drop in the housing. The best solution is to get the cowl hood to give you the room.
When air has to make a 90* turn to go down into the venturi, it needs a wide turning radius (the wider the better). That's why you need 3" of turning area above the venturi at the very least, or you get a huge drop in airflow.

The new housing I'm working on will definately require a cowl hood of at least 4".

ODB

rhawki

I would think that it would change air flow whether you need more or not. It's gonna pull air through the top no matter what, so wouldn't this have some effect on air flow as it enters the carb? For example, let's say 50% of the air enters the top and 50% of the air enters the sides, as opposed to it all coming in the sides. Actually, i would think it would be easier to pull air straight down from the top, so would it change to like, 60% top/40% side? I would also think that would give you better response from the venturi's. Not trying to start anything, just curious, cuz it sounds like people are in the mind frame that the flow from the top doesn't come into play until the side flow is maxed out...

-Rich

The ODB

you are talking about me.

airflow is not dependant on positioning.
airflow is dependant on a pressure drop. The pressure drop in the filter housing is what draws air inside. If the drop is high then adding the filter top will reduce it by a significant amount based on increased surface area (not positioning),
but if the filter is already properly sized with very little internal pressure drop, then the lid will not make any significant difference based on its position. The air will pick areas of least resistance to flow through the filter.

Ray87Z

So if you ran a standard, restrictive paper fram/stock type element for the 14x3" cleaner, and then added the Xstream lid, the air would tend to mainly flow in through the lid right? That would give alot of the air a straighter shot into the carb correct?

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

The ODB

right

The ODB

don't forget that the air between the hood and the lid also has to make that 90* turn to go down through the lid.
I have never seen any dyno tests show a velocity stack (straight down) housing outflow a 360* housing with lots of filter area. That's why I say the best answer is to get a taller hood to give the air lots of room to turn down into the carb.

zenish

it seems to me that the extream lid wood suck down the hood insulation and block itself off

85_ZED28

also, IT'S UGLY AS HELL!!

CamaroMike

Ugly......
Ugly......
Man whatever!
I personally think that picking up and extra 500 plus CFM with low stock hood clearance is a big damn deal. Especially with a quality air fliter and the reputation of K&N. Think what you want but learn to recognize airflow potential when you see it. The lid makes a straight shot to the carb possible with minimal restriction and filtered air. I would take a 5" regualr air filter with chrome lid to do that. Some people had better learn to recognize performance and fine engineering.

CamaroMike out!

------------------
84 Camaro ZZ4 with HOT cam. 1.88 60' (12.98 @ 105MPH E.T.)
Recently Ported Heads, Installed Larger Race-Flo Valves and RPM Air Gap Intake (No new times)
Other Mods: You name it and I have probably changed it.

2001 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 5.9L 4*2

The Bowtie
ASE Certified Auto Tech
LIVE AND DIE BY THE ALMIGHTY BOWTIE!

[This message has been edited by CamaroMike (edited March 18, 2001).]