Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I was just wondering how many of us are using carters and edelbrock carbs? Since I was buying a carb I just had to have one. Holleys are way too mainstream and im all about going against the grain.
Anyways, what sort of combos and jetting/rods/spings/pump shot combos are you using for your combos and what kind of results are you getting?
I run a .030 over 305 with a 214/224 cam with close to half inch lift with 416 h.o. heads ported and polished by me
torker II single plane, edel. TES. 3.42s, 5 speed, like a mini torker II package
out of the box the pump shot on my 1405 had to be changed to the top hole on the arm and is still not enough, and since then ive changed the pump up springs to the pink ones (if i recall correctly that is, one step up from stock) 75x47 rods, .104 primaries, and .98 secondaries
I think i might bring back the secondaries to stock or just a little above it. not sure yet. The car absolutely screams from 3.5 to 6.5k
but under that its pretty weak, my afr gauge and egt show me that its leaning out big timewhen im heavy on just the primaries. like im not getting enough signal to em.
Im debating whether to go with a 4 hole spacer although the only thing i want to boost signal to is the primaries, or should i get some even larger primary jets (i allready have the biggest in the edel. calibration kit)
and as far as pump shot goes.. i think i need a larger volume pump shot. I hear theres a different style plunger out there for this. Any one use this? or will a .035 pump shot squirter work wonders? I have to be 3.5k and above before i can stomp it without substantial bog.. it still has a little.

cya
Pablo

Jester

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=74395

wow..not may people really run them.....call me silly but I think it might just be for a reason......hmmmmm

Apeiron

How did I know Jester would be the first to reply?

eric17422001

I think most of your problem is your choice of intake. That Torker II is designed for top end. If you were running more cubes they may make torque down low to make up for it.
Try a Performer RPM or another dual plane.

Eric

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Actually jester, Tell me why. Im all ears, i still have not heard a satisfactory response from anyone. Compare a 1405 to an 1850 holley and tell me why the holley is better. Im not defending the edelbrock for any reason. I can see some advantage to a double pumper simply because of the huge amount of fuel it can deliver when you stab the throttle.. but other than that, i dont know enough about holleys, educate me

eric,
Yep the intake is a single plane and all that jive, but get this, with the tbi on there I could launch at 1500 rpm and BLAZE the tires (I broke an axle shaft to prove it! Wheel hop played a part)

with the carb, I have to launch at 3000 rpm or so to equal the tbi.. and even then i have to kkeep the air velocity up by slipping the clutch to really take off. It still takes off hard, but the power band down low has dissappeared. And like i said, its leaning out far too much on the low end its obviously a fuel issue which is probably because the carb relies on a weak vacuum signal (unlike the tbi)
Theres no way this is the best it can do on the low end, if it was, the difference between tbi and the carb in the low end torque department is massive. ex. I could easily pull a boat with my motor with the tbi, the car would just stall with the carb unless i was at like 3 grand

rocky383

Edelbrock has a .043 pump nozzle. Maybe you could try stiffer step up springs. I wish I knew enough about carbs to say more. I'm pretty new myself.

:hail:IROC-Z

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

wow thats a big one
see the problem im seeing with just gettign bigger nozzles is it will shorten my pump shot duration substantially. The question is will the big boost of fuel be enough to get the engine going enough to provide the primaries with enough signal to take over.
Im thinking not, I think i need a slightly larger pump shot volume in addition to slightly larger squirters
but I dont know. Ill try the larger squirters and see what happens

Jester

Hmm..how bout some dyno results then?

Carb: HP/TQ
Stock stang Holley 344.2/323.7
Holley 650 DP 360.2/346.8
Demon 650 DP 362.7/338.4
Holley 600 VS 351.4/327.6
Holley 750 VS 359.9/336.2
Q-Jet 348.9/343.0
Edelbrock 650 350.8/329.3
Edelbrock 750 350.2/326.9


Edelbrocks are just not designed for power. They're made for people who wanna bolt them on and go. Even the die hard Edelbrock fans here will tell you that they don't make the power a Holley would, they like them for other reasons...liek gas mileage.


Use the search function. The topic has been gone over, back, and over again on this board when you didn't come here.

Matt98SS

its a 305 I would use something small like a road demon or the like.

its probably too mainstream but using what works usually promotes the best gains for a reason

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

that dyno comparison is nice and all except that edelbrock doesnt make a carter style carburetor in the 650 size
and even if that is a typo for the 600, it makes about the same power than the holley 600 vs
on top of all that what were the conditions of the test, did they tune each carb to the application? if so, then the dp carbs made the most power, why? what is different about their design that makes them better. Thats what im interested in knowing. Thanks

and Matt, do you wear Nike's?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

btw i want you to take note that i did not ask you to prove which carb was better, i asked you WHY the holley was supposedly better

poncho9789

I don't understand how the holley is better than the edelbrock if both were tuned correctly and the cfm was the same the only difference I could see is the diff between the vac and mechanical secondarys. I am building my motor carbed but I don't know anything about them I just go off what a friend of mine says I don't have enough experance with carbs to make any decisions I have always worked with fuel injection cars.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

eh, theres quite a bit more to it than that poncho

JRoy91RS

Pablo, I think Jester DID answer your question. Dyno numbers are a way to show why one carb 'is supposedly better' than another. We could get in a semantics argument over the slight differences between the question you posed and the question that you thought Jester answered, but I don't think that would be very productive. If you search this board, you'll find tons of answers to your question. All you have to do is type in 'Edelbrock vs Holley' on the archives search and there will be a dearth of info. available. I learned quite a bit about the differences, advantages and disadvantages of each, and I still haven't decided which carb will end up on my Holley Street Dominator intake permanently. For now, I'm going with an edelbrock. Why? Because I can swap my roommate a bottle of George Dickel for a 750 edelbrock he has lying around, and we can both get plastered and go carb next weekend for a total cost of less than what one of those carbs will cost brand new! Plus, I'll be getting drunk! I'll probably eventually end up with a Road Demon or Street Demon because of the dyno numbers. I've seen dyno test after dyno test that put the BG carbs on top, and that is reason enough for me. If you are looking for reliability, economy, and ease of use, then I think that edelbrock is the way to go. But unless you can tune an edelbrock to put out the same dyno numbers as a well-tuned holley, then I will stick by holley. Another reason why (and I'm giving away some of the knowledge I found in the search) people stay with holleys is because of accessibility of aftermarket tuning parts and resources. Every parts store that I can think of carries Holley carb. components, but how many carry edelbrock? Some do, but your chances of finding a re-jet kit 2 hrs before the track closes is better if you have a Holley than if you run an edelbrock. Just something to think about...

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

IM gonna be blunt jroy, if you can tell me something i dont know on this subject, ill mail you a dollar, and if you can wow me with some general car knowledge ill send you five. I hate to get rude but it seems like you are talking down to me and I dont appreciate it.


I looked in the archives i just saw alot of jester *** kissing and since i taught the boy all he knows starting with his first spark plug change im not one to take just his word on things lol

Lets try the "scientific" explanation for grown ups this time

Ill pose the question again.. why, NOT WHICH, WHY IS HOLLEY BETTER AT MAKING HP


im not pro carter or pro holley or pro anythign ill try em all Id just like to know why the holley is better for educational purposes. Provide me with that information.

As for a "rejet kit" as you call it, Ummm, if you find a parts store with a holley jet kit let me know because in the ones i worked in the most we carried was general replacement parts, no jets except for some rebuild kits that might have included one set of stock calibration jets

I dont know why youd need jets in an emergency anyways because anyone tuning at the track oughta have an entire jet set to play with

JRoy91RS

Pablo, I don't understand why everytime someone tries to teach you something, you think that they are "talking down to you", unless it's an opinion from someone whom you deem worthy of accepting. I used to respect your knowledge and understanding because you used to be one of the few people on this board who knew what they were really talking about it (I'm talking about way back about 4 yrs ago when I first started coming around here). Heck, one of the reasons why I decided to go carb was because I heard that you, a hardcore TBI'er, was doing so. Now you are so condescending and arrogant that I even wonder why I bother to read much less answer your posts. YOU, Pablo, are the one that talks down to people and tries to intimidate and belittle other members on the board. Just look at your replies to most of the people who try to chime in with a point now and then. Do you really think that this encourages people to try to help you? In addition, how do you think new members feel when you try to make them feel stupid? Do you think that they will come back looking to learn from you? When they happen to learn something that even you don't know, do you think that they will feel comfortable sharing it? No, because you almost always have some comment which attempts to convey how much better/smarter you are than everyone else around you. How do you think that feels?

I apologize to the moderators for this very non-tech post. Mine are very few and far between, but I feel like something had to be said. I wasn't going to get in a pissing match because it will probably perpetuate an argument, but this is all I'm going to say on this issue. I just hope that new members don't continue to be intimidated by you, and, Pablo, since you don't deem me an acceptable candidate to answer your posts, I'll refrain from doing so. From now on, I'll do you a favor and ignore them.

rocky383

Autozone stocks Edelbrock strip kits.

:hail:IROC-Z

SSC

Ive gone through both of these carbs. I like the 1850 better than the 1406. I tunned a 1406 to proper edelbrock specs for altitude and power, ran great but I threw an untunned (just adjusted) 1850 on and gained 500rpm. Cant argue with that, also fuel consumption was reduced with the holley. Edelbrocks and Carter are the basicly the same carbs, newer ones anyway, the only thing that will swap ofver from an older carter to an edelbrock or newer carter are jets and floats. the 50 cfm difference is nill and even a slight advantage for the carterbrock on Jesters dyno example. Everyone is entiled to thir own 0.2.

Jester

I have some ideas. I think maybe Edelcraps CFM ratings are overrated. Maybe it's an ineffective and/or restrictive venturi or metering circuit design. Maybe just a lack of tunability. Maybe it's that thier bleed circuits are calibrated too lean. Maybe it's a limited internal fuel flow capacity.


But I say who cares why? Is it your job to redesign thier product for them and fix the problem? The bottom line is that Edelcraps just don't produce the best results by far, and there are tons of examples if you wanna look around that prove it. I have a bunch of theories why, but they're just that, theories I have no way of proving or disproving, and never will without alot more time and effort than I'll ever be willing to sink into answering the question.

I hear the TBI board is real big on the "reinvent the square wheel" kinda thing tho...why don't you try there?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

So jester, basically you are saying you dont really know why. Thanks! Me neither, i have theories too about all sorts of stuff but we know how that goes

When I find out Ill let you guys know because i plan on finding out.


And to Jroy, I apologize if thats the way I come across. But i find many times im just returning the sentiment to people that are constantly being combative with me. Look at how many people had to chime in on this post and basically tell me Im an idiot for having a carter and should have gotten a holley and then when i ask why one is better, why is it that i feel even further chastized. I dont think i was trying to sound "smart" at all in this post, I posed a question that seemed to pain some people in answering and ill admit, that does annoy me, dogmatic following of any sort without ever knowing or even questioning the whys and how

going against the grain will always **** people off

ChillPhatCat

I think the most important thing here is the intake you chose. Looking at those dyno results I see that out of ~350 Hp there is only about 10Hp difference... which means my LG4 probably would only gain 4 Hp or so with a holley as opposed to my current Edelbrock. The OEM equipment was crap IMO. The intake and carb really wake things up as far as throttle response goes. It's not a major jump in Hp, but it's sufficient for me. Once again I'll say the Edelbrock is a good carb as I have defended it several times in the past... But I'll still tip the hat of performance to the Holley.

SSC

When I tested the carbs I was running an LG4 and gained 500rpm with the 1850 thats quite a bit more than 10hp. Theres only one thing I admit edelbrocks have an advantage on and thats cool operating temp, heat doesent soak into edelbrocks as fast.




SSC

rocky383

I've noticed that my carb never gets hot too.

:hail:IROC-Z

toosloz

last time i gteched my car with a "600 edelbrock" it went 13.7@102 with two friends in the car....thats with a performer intake, stick 305 manifolds....

i like this carb...not sure if ill go bigger just yet but its a great carb....no fires like holley's tend to have and you can change rods and springs with out ripping the carb off the car

Inwo

Wonder why five7kid hasn't chimed in yet to say how Q-Jets will out perform both Edelbrock and Holley while still getting 30mpg? Hm...
Anyway the Edelbrocks are a good carb for a street car so you don't have to keep tuning them every other day, but still it's only a 10hp difference anyway, and Edelbrock has a 600cfm compared to the Holley 650 dp... If you're going straight race then I'd say sure the Holley is the best, but my opinion is that Edelbrock is better for the street. Then again I own an Edelcrock so I guess I'm kinda biased :lala:

SSC

Holleys dont catch on fire because thier Holleys, they catch on fire because people dont know how to tune carbs or they like to stick thier foot in a manual choke when the cars is dead COLD.

Holleys athough they seem complicated arent. Most pople would be stuned if they knew how easy these carbs are to take apart, on the car even. What takes 15 minuets with an edelbrock or 1/2 and hour with a Qjet, only takes about 5 minuets with a holley, 4 bolts and you can change jets. A sloted screw driver and a 5/8's wrench and you can adjust the floats by sight in about 2 minuets.

I admit, at one time I flew the edelbrock flag, I liked how easy it seemed to tune these carbs and the rush of mech sec's but when I finally got serious about power, tunability and fuel economy a holley is the only thing that makes sence.


SSC

ChillPhatCat

Edelbrock claims you can change jets in 5 min also... I haven't done that yet, that's one project for the summer. I think they've got a good reputation though. For a first mod it's not bad... once it is actually costing you power (in fine tuning maximum power output) perhaps it is time to switch to a Holley... it's really not gonna make the biggest difference though.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

changing the jets in an edelbrock is a zillion times easier than a holley in my opinion, no spilled fuel, no chances for a leak afterwards.. you have a few more screws to take the airhorn off but did i mention you dont spill any fuel?? I think i did

Camaro_hunter_d

I will say this. I have known many a people with holly's and they claim there the greatest thing in the world. UNTILL they tried a Demon. Flat out Demons ARE THE BEST THING OUT THERE. BUT as with having the best comes the price tag. Personally I perfer Demons to anything else, they are extremely easy to re jet, have the smoothest venturis out there and flat out flow the best. Not to mention you buy one with the removable venturis and you can change the CFM ratings... AWESOME tunability. Solid drilled billet, unlike everyone elses cast design.

When I decided to swap out my TBI (meaning to do it for some time actually) I just finally got serious about it when I saw my FEDERAL tax return of almost 1K, I said ok parts list and prices.

I DECIDED to go with Carter basically for the streetability factor and not have to deal with the "finiky" Hollys. Face it we all have dealt with a holly that just flat out did not want to cooperate. I can recall more then a few times on my 2nd gens of having to deal with a pissed off holly. I consider Holly's like Harley Davidsons, nice to look at, pretty good rumblers, but hell to keep in great tune.

Yes holly's make more dyno power the edel's. But the choice is not just for power. You have a whole bunch more factors then JUST power. I do not think that anyones car in here is a pure strip racer? If so then hell go for the hollys. But I have gotten stuck in many a places cause the holly decided it was too hot and it did not "feel" like doing its job anymore.

Now can after that very civilized explaination can we all get along and move on?..

chrimv

It's not how big you get it's the right mixture of fuel and air that creates more power right? A 600cfm Edelbrock on a 305 has just enough power for stomping on it as well as for just driving around without haveing to tune it every-so-often. True the Holley is designed more for racing but both Holly and Edelbrock are great carbs, just prefrence. Isn't Demon carbs owned by Edelbrock? or is it Holly? Either way, I think it's just what name brand you like..I don't like either name...lol Wish there was a company called Hellfire or something...

Just my two cents....