86WS6

iTrader: (1)

I believe that I know the answer to my questions, however it never hurts to ask. I have a 1982 WS7 TA with 25K actual miles on it. It has the LG4 engine and T200C transmission. All of this raw 145 HP is routed through a 10 bolt with 3:23 gears. The car is bone stock. It starts well, runs smooth, gets 23 MPG, passes emissions, and has no codes stored. The only work we have done to the carb is to replace the choke thermostat when it failed a couple of years ago. The choke stayed on all of the time and the engine ran crappy and blew out black smoke. The new choke thermostat fixed the issue. My question is there anything that can be done to the car to improve performance without changing the stock appearance, or this car destine to be a slug. Last year we were running with a group of F-body owners on a cruise-in and a farm tractor passed us like we were standing still. I would really hate to know what it will turn in the quarter mile. We are not trying to make a race car out of it. The car is mostly a show car. It wins stock class in shows all over the southeast every year. It is that clean. We trailer it to long distance events and drive it to events within 50 miles of our home. It is not a DD. I owned three different 83's back in the day that were identical except for the transmission. Two of the 83's had 700R4 transmissions and one was a manual. Those cars would run circles around the 82. A friend who is more knowledgeable than I says that the 700R4 has a very low 1st gear compared to the T200C and that is where the performance differences are. The reason I posted this in the carburetor section is I am wondering if there is potential improvements in the stock carb or timing that will enhance performance? The car already likes premium fuel and always has. It runs a little rough and pings on regular.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I don't know of anything you can do to the carb or timing that would improve performance and not screw with the computer and cause other issues. It looks like you have a real survivor there. I can see why it wins at car shows. I wouldn't mess with it and just enjoy it for what it is.

I'm sure you know other things that wouldn't be obvious that you could do...probably the least obvious would be to drop a L69 engine in it and get a whopping 195 HP....maybe change the gearing a bit and it could be dressed up to look completely stock. But not worth all the effort really.

8t2 z-chev

'83s had a better-flowing honeycomb style catalytic converter VS the old '70s type pellet bed converter on'82s. Could check that timing is correct and spark advance working also.I don't think the difference in gearing from a th200(2.75 1st IIRC)Vs 700 3.06 1st would make much difference-My '82 lg4 z28 4spd/3.23s had halfway decent power in stone stock form.Sounds like it might be running a little lean since it pings easily.Though car passed emissions,catalytic converter may have been partly plugged by choke problem.

Damon

Agreed on the cat. But that's just part of the problem with the LG4 (any year, really), even if it's working perfectly. It's got low compression (8.5:1 until 1985), strangulating exhaust (all of it from the manifolds to the muffler) and an itty-bitty little cam that we affectionately call the "peanut cam" around here.

Without altering the appearance of the car from stock there are a couple little things you can do that'll give it a little more zip. Install a set of DR secondary metering rods on a 'G' hanger in the carb (same ones the L69 HO used) and bump the initial timing up from it's stock setting of 0* to 4-6* BTDC. Just remember to set the base timing using the factory procedure or you'll be chasing a ghost. Basically that amounts to unplugging the 4-wire timing connector behind the distributor before checking base timing and plugging it back in after you're done.

Changing carbs and intakes is not where the restriction is on these motors until you're about DOUBLE the factory power rating (and the QJet carb itself isn't really a restriction until MUCH higher than that).

If you can possibly see your way to installing a set of shorty headers, matching y-pipe, 3" cat and a 3" cat-back exhaust to your car that makes the biggest difference in terms of bolt-on power adders, especially for the early LG4. (A really mild Summit K1102 cam comes next on the list if you're willing to go inside the motor). But don't spend a ton of money on the existing motor because the REAL bang-for-the-buck solution beyond this point is dropping a 350 in place of the 305.

The really inexpensive GM Targetmaster "Universal Replacement" 350ci engine (reusing the headers and exhaust you already installed, above) is worth a LEGIT 225-250HP in a 3rd gen and literally everything off your old 305 will bolt onto it- intake, carb, distributor, front end accessories, starter, flexplate.... the whole shootin' match. If you want it to look EXACTLY like your old 305, swap the valve covers over (the engine comes with valve covers that say '350' on them).

I used to replace worn out stock 305s with that motor back in the 80s and 90s and they really do feel like you strapped a second engine under the hood compared with a worn out 305. Not like you're gonna take down a modern Z28 or anything like that, but a TON more grunt. And yeah, the computer will still be able to run it just fine.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Some good options. Not sure that I want to make major mods to this car.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

If you're not hearing a distinct roar from the secondaries in the Q-jet when you get on it WOT, you probably need to adjust the air door there.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Full agreement about no altering mods for this car. She is too original. It sounds like the cat converter could be restricting the exhaust somewhat, however she passes emissions testing with no problems. The choke thermostat was only bad for about 20 miles. I replaced it as soon as it failed. Just for kicks and giggles we ran a couple of 1/4 mile runs on a rarely used airport runway yesterday. Used a GPS for accuracy. No burnouts, dropping gears, or anything crazy. Just full throttle from a dead stop to the 1/4 mile mark. 17.4 seconds at 89 MPH. The car hooks up well, only spinning about 15 feet. No smoking tires, just some bilateral tire spin. A friend who helped with this test says that he believes there is nothing wrong with the car. That's all there is to it. Once it shifts into third gear it takes a while to gain any more speed. Not much torque on the top end. And the Q-jet roars when wide open. Just for comparison the 86 TPI car with a 3:27 9 bolt turns a consistent 15.3 seconds. What is really depressing is that the wife's 2008 Crown Victoria with a 4.6 and 2:71 gears does the same run in 15.1 seconds... I won't kill any V8 Mustangs with the two birds in my garage!

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

If you want more power Change the cam and have the heads Ported .Also have bigger valves put in.

eseibel67

You can easily double the horsepower and not be able to tell be looking at it under hood. That's the route I would go, that car is beautiful. Just keep the stock engine vacuum packed under your workbench for the next owner.

CPC Norwood

Get the Issue of HOT ROD where they modified an LG-4 and improved the ET by 2 seconds in the quarter. Great article. I found a copy here but you might be able to locate a copy on Ebay too.

"Shadow boxing unleashing the Z28's hidden punch"

http://www.goantiques.com/hot-rod-91982-750126

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

sweet ride

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the good advice. It sounds like there are a number of ways to give the old car more punch. I am reluctant to modify the car away from original. Mods are like a chain reaction. Once it starts there will be no stopping until the car is modified all over. My thought was just to get it tuned so that we were getting it's full potential, like all of those 145 horses. I took it to a specialty shop once and all they talked about was wanting to do an LS conversion on it. To me for something like that it would make more sense to use a high mileage car with a good straight rust free body, not an all original survivor car. There are plenty of high mileage cars around. I will check around and see if there is a way to check the catalytic converter to see if it is restricting the exhaust flow enough to choke the car down. The problem where we live is that no one knows anything about these old cars with carburetors on them. Everyone these days were trained on modern fuel injection.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Gotta think a bit more carefully about the ways in which "original" is "valuable"...

Besides whatever sentimental etc. "value" the car has to you yourself, you have to think about "value" in the mind of the general public; i.e. POTENTIAL BUYERS.

What makes "original" be "valuable"? Is it "originality" itself? If so, in what instances? Surely not ALL cars are "valuable" because they are "original"; which ones ARE? Why? What makes them so?

Mentally probing the answer to this question will reveal more than what you will get from any other means.

In the case of most genuine MUSCLE cars, it was the time into which they were born. That is, there's not all that much about THE CARS THEMSELVES that is particularly special, in and of itself; they weren't very comfortable, they had terrible brakes and zero handling, and most of them weren't even all that "fast" in the way it is usually measured. (drag strip times) What they DID have, was that they captured the spirit of the times they were built.

By the time our cars were built, that had ALL GONE AWAY. There are NO CARS AT ALL from the era of ours (80s) that were so integrated into pop culture the way 60s Mustangs, GTOs, Mopars, etc. were. Not Mustangs, not Vettes, and CERTAINLY NOT Mopars. The popular imagination had moved on to other things.

"Original" has "value" in the sense that people (POTENTIAL BUYERS) remember it fondly, and want to be reminded of it. These cars simply LACK THAT. No fault of their own; it's just a consequence of the time they were born. They are ALTOGETHER BETTER IN EVERY WAY than the muscle cars of the 60s, with the possible exception of pure acceleration.

So, what about preserving "poor acceleration" do you think, "enhances" your car's "value"? Do you honestly think people (POTENTIAL BUYERS) WANT TO be reminded of how slow the LG4 was? (speaking strictly as someone who first saw 82 Camaros in 81, and was GOBSMACKED by how much better of a car they were than my 79 Z28, until I drove one... I was UNDERWHELMED by the LG4 and LU5 cars, and waited until I could get my hands on a L69 car) I would argue, NOT.

Note please that I am NOT telling you "you must modify it", "it is worthless", "you must preserve it", or ANYTHING ELSE of the kind; only, that you MUST EXAMINE YOUR OWN INTERNAL MOTIVES CAREFULLY before making that kind of decision. Figure out WHY you think you should take a particular path, and understand that not everyone will agree with you no matter what that is.

I would maintain that of all the things NOT worthy of "preservation" in that car, the underpowered motor is FIRST on the list.

Given how easy it is to upgrade it, and how little it can affect the "appearance" of the car if done right, I can't see why anyone would force themselves to put up with that pathetic POS your car has in it, and be embarrassed at traffic lights or on the freeway by Kia minivans and everything else.

The things that are making your car slow ARE NOT the big shiny obvious things sitting up on top of it, such as the carb. You will gain NOTHING by simply swapping that out, because it IS NOT the limiting factor to the car's power.

The things that ARE making your car slow are the exhaust, the lack of cubic inches, the low compression, the cam, the gears, and the torque converter. EVERY ONE of those things can be upgraded with little or no visible evidence. Certainly, not enough to disturb its "originality". There is no point in messing with the carb, air cleaner, emissions eqpt, air conditioning, or any of those other things that the ignorant hacks of the world all seem to think necessary. No chrome anything will help. Fancy-colored fittings, stainless-braided fuel lines, etc. etc. etc. are a TOTAL WASTE. My suggestions would be a moderately built 350, with mid-9s of compression and GOOD FLOWING heads such as Vortecs, a Comp XE262 cam or something similar in one of the other top-line cam mfrs' product lines, a 3.42 or 3.73 rear gear, the ENTIRE L69 exhaust from the heads to the street, and about a 2500 RPM stall converter.

Other things you can easily upgrade that will make the car FAR more pleasant to drive without significantly changing its appearance include chassis stiffening (SFCs - EVERY ONE of these cars should have those installed); the suspension (springs, shocks & struts, sway bars, sway bar end links & bushings, add a "wonderbar"); brakes (swap LS1 fronts and PBR rears into it); bigger wheels and tires (looks like you already have a bit of that going on, with later-model 16 x 8 on there instead of the original 15 x 7).

But above all, understand WHY you are doing what you are doing, and what YOUR GOAL is. Don't "keep it original" if you hate it that way just because you hallucinate that it has "more value" that way. At the same time, DON'T just hack it up and destroy it either. If there are specific shortcomings you want to address, do so, but in a manner that doesn't hurt its other attributes.

eseibel67

The best reason to keep it original isn't to preserve the moment into which it was born. It's to reduce the perception that it's been manhandled by some kid that doesn't know what he's doing.


This car was originally manufactured with a SBC, that automatically makes it really easy to modify (without external visual cues) into something much better. And I would retain those 15" "bowling ball" hubcaps on that white 82 TA. They look awesome.

CPC Norwood

Just remember that if you start making serious power with 82-84 "F" infrastructure designed for 305 LG-4 you are going to need to consider options to cool the engine, FWIW... none of which are going to look very stock. These were 55 MPH speed limit design cars.

Having seat time in an 82 LG-4 Z28 with 2 people and luggage (running modern speed limits over 65 during a hot day with the AC on) will immediately test the stock cooling system.

Two choices, slow down or overheat. Having the Radiator cleaned and flushed by a shop before the next trip made no difference.

Been there and done that. There was a functional reason for the front end fascia redesign in 85. Cooling and airflow was a major consideration as HP was added.

If you want the car to remain stock looking take care on the extent of the modifications to the engine or you will be into the cooling system quick and the TH-200 C will not be far behind, to be promptly followed by the rear end which will need work next.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

You forgot about subframe connectors, bigger brakes, and such.

The only thing I am interested in is a well tuned carburator and a tweaked distribitutor

CPC Norwood

Then the Hot Rod shadow boxing article is exactly what you are looking for!

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

I took a stock LG4 put some cheap summit shorty headers, 3in exhaust cat delete, I think either a k1102 or k1103 summit cam and new valvesprings, a 650 Holley double pumper and cheap summit intake manifold and it was in the 14s. I big jump from what it was stock and it was barely noticeable under the hood. Still my 91 LB9 Auto would outrun it bone stock.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

If you want to keep it looking BONE STOCK, that's what I would do.

Damon

You already HAVE those things. You have a computer controlled QJet which, in good working order, is the poor man's fuel injection. The carb may look ugly but it flat-out works if it's in good order. The distributor is computer controlled as well. There are no "performance upgrades" for them and none are needed. Set of DR rods in the secondary side of the carb (the rods and their hanger can be unscrewed and lifted out from outside the carb- ONE SCREW!) and bump up the base timing a few degrees over stock.

If you are interested in keeping it looking stock swapping out the carb and distributor is the LAST thing you want to do. It's just SCREAMS "I've been rigged by somebody who doesn't know what they're doing and ripped off all the computer controlled stuff."

roadthrills

You can swap ecu to the better L69 version. Do you have a stock iron intake? If so, you could upgrade to the stock aluminum version. Also tweak the carb with jets and metering rods. You "could" port the heads but that wouldn't really help anything unless you also swapped out the cam. You could also get an aftermarket torque converter with a little higher stall to help out the seat -of-the-pants feel. I would definitely keep that sucker as original appearing as possible.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Thanks everyone for all of the good suggestions. However there are some misunderstandings going on here. This car is a survivor with 25K actual miles, and is very original. We changed out the original Goodyear tires, hoses and belts last year because those items were so dry rotted that they were no longer safe to use. I don't have any delusions that the car is some ultra valuable collector car. It is an 82 WS7 with 25K miles on it. It is not a 74 Super Duty TA. Still the car deserves to be preserved since it has survived intact for so many years. I have no plans to sell either one of my TA's. I am having too much fun with them and don't have any reason to sell them, so resale value is not a top priority. I have already survived a brain tumor, and recently went into remission from prostate cancer. Probably what will happen is that when I die, my son will sell them to a couple of my car club friends who have shown a keen interest in them. What I want to do with this car is to make sure that it is running as well as it can while maintaining stock configuration of the car and not modify the car. I have no desire to disable the Computer Command Control system. My plan is to find someone who really understands this system and have them go over the car to make sure that the carburetor is working correctly, and that the car is tuned as well as it can be for this model. If there are some adjustments that can be done to increase performance have that done at the same time. I thought that there was a possibility that the carburetor could be tuned for a slight increase in performance and drivability. I am not expecting to huge gain in HP. The car has the original spark plugs, original wires and almost everything else under the hood. I have changed the air filter element and we service the engine every year.

eseibel67

34 year old spark plug wires have reduced ability to deliver power all the way to the plugs. Would also be a good idea to clean or replace the cap/rotor/plugs.


Your carb gaskets and rubbers are probably dried out also - get it resealed.


Without even seeing it, these 2 areas will get it running better for minimal cost.

eseibel67

Nice action shot of the blue TA by the way. Any way you can Photoshop out that short guy with the tall wife in the minivan getting all up in your tailpipe?

naf

iTrader: (7)

a scanner that can read the 'real time' data for the ecm can be used to verify that the ccc system is operating correctly. there is no real 'tuning' for the carb, other than to set some simple adjustments so that the mixture control solenoid cycle is nearest the mid point of its range at idle in gear. after that a scanner will show you whether all of the other sensors (TPS, ETC.) are providing expected outputs at different driving conditions. if you get ahold of an autoxray or equivalent we can walk you through this pretty simply.

the simple tweaks you seek are mentioned above.

bump the timing slightly

swap the secondary hangers/rods for DR or similar

adjust the AV tension on the secondary air flap

note that the secondary side of the carburetor is NOT computer controlled. it functions essentially the same as any other mechanical qjet. after ensuring that

1) the choke is functioning correctly (it will lock out the secondaries until it is open)

2) the choke pull off is functioning correctly (it will not allow the secondary airflap to open when it fails

peruse the ccc-qjet tuning article here for adjusting the AV tension and swapping to some better rods/hanger

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Thanks eseibel67, Those items sound like a great place to start!

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. That picture was taken by a professional photographer on US 129, The Tail of the Dragon on the NC/TN state line at the southern border of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. We live in the area. Several photographers set up out there on the weekends and take pictures of every car that passes. They post the pictures on their website and sell them. The pic's turned out so well I bought a few of them. I bought a Fat Head style vinyl cutout of this same photo of the 86 and have it on the wall in my hobby room. The car that was running up my tailpipe is a Mini. The day that I was on the Tail of the Dragon the Mini club was out there. Traffic was bumper to bumper, and in a car as slow as a stock 80's thirdgen there was no way not to have someone riding my tail. The funny thing was that this car would catch me in the curves, but I could run away from them in the straight areas. The 86 is a stock original 31K survivor car also. It is a TPI car and runs like a clock. It has quite a bit more power than the 82 car does. It is possible that a more aggressive driver in my 86 could have done better. I was just going for a Saturday morning ride.

http://tailofthedragon.com/

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like I need to pay you to work on the car.

roadthrills

You can whip a stock WS6 car hard enough to almost see daylight under the front tire if you know what your doing and have good tires.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

See the top part of my sig for an idea of how well your car can run with just external mods. I also did the DR rods and G hanger in the secondaries.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

My stock 1983 LE9 305 had DR rods on a K hanger. I found a F-hanger holding a pair of attrocious DD rods in a 1988 Cadillac Fleetwood with the Olds 307. Grabbed the hanger, threw the rods as far as I could and put the hanger in. Fattened up the midrange nicely. I had a 204/214 cam in it with long tube headers. Used a performer rpm intake and ditched the EGR. Ran so much better than stock.