Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
#1
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
I picked up this system last fall but never got it installed. I finally got around to putting it in the '57 last night (this should apply to any 3rd gen vehicle, carb'd or otherwise). I put the sensor in the collector adapter (3") to keep it simple. I managed to get it through the free air calibration and installed into the pipe, but ran out of time after that.
The instructions were a little vague after that, but I assume I need to install their software on the laptop and go through some gauge settings after that. I'm running E85, so I also assume I need to do some different settings for it vs. gasoline. I hope to get through that this evening.
If anyone has any words of wisdom to drop on me, have at it. I'm completely new to A/F ratio meters. There is a test session at the track this Friday, and I hope to make use of this newfangled toy then.
The instructions were a little vague after that, but I assume I need to install their software on the laptop and go through some gauge settings after that. I'm running E85, so I also assume I need to do some different settings for it vs. gasoline. I hope to get through that this evening.
If anyone has any words of wisdom to drop on me, have at it. I'm completely new to A/F ratio meters. There is a test session at the track this Friday, and I hope to make use of this newfangled toy then.
#2
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
I've been running one for almost a year now but haven't really done much of anything with the laptop side of it. There is a setting in the software to choose different types of fuel so maybe that'll change some numbers around on the gauge.
#3
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
I assumed something along that line, but haven't loaded the software on the laptop yet.
They have a discussion forum on their website, but there is only one post on E85 anywhere, and it is on the Lambda forum. If the gauge read out Lambda, it would be simple.
They have a discussion forum on their website, but there is only one post on E85 anywhere, and it is on the Lambda forum. If the gauge read out Lambda, it would be simple.
#4
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
I found their full manual on line, apparently it is the LC-1 that needs to be calibrated, not the gauge.
They have presets for:
Gasoline 14.7
LPG (Propane) 15.5
Methanol 6.4
Ethanol 9.0
CNG 17.2
Diesel 14.6
But, not E85, which is 9.7. Since the output is just a ratio expression of Lambda, it could be left as it is and just use it as a rich/stoich/lean indicator (I think). Or, use the ethanol setting, which is the closest of any of the presets. But, it would be cool to have it reading "properly", and respond to A/F ratio changes in a more real-life fashion (I think. . .).
They have presets for:
Gasoline 14.7
LPG (Propane) 15.5
Methanol 6.4
Ethanol 9.0
CNG 17.2
Diesel 14.6
But, not E85, which is 9.7. Since the output is just a ratio expression of Lambda, it could be left as it is and just use it as a rich/stoich/lean indicator (I think). Or, use the ethanol setting, which is the closest of any of the presets. But, it would be cool to have it reading "properly", and respond to A/F ratio changes in a more real-life fashion (I think. . .).
#5
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: Strange 12 bolt 3.42
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
May want to check on the innovate forums about E85 usage. Since you can program the outputs of the LC-1, they may have an equation already in use for that.
Default is 10+V*2 = air/fuel ratio. If it sees 0 volts, reads 10 to 1. Reads 5 volts, 20 to 1 air fuel. You can program in air fuel or lambda.
Default is 10+V*2 = air/fuel ratio. If it sees 0 volts, reads 10 to 1. Reads 5 volts, 20 to 1 air fuel. You can program in air fuel or lambda.
#6
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Well, like I said, I already did. One post, and it was a discussion of tuning to Lambda with E85, not programming for A/F ratio output with E85 (the answer was to shoot for the same Lambda as with gasoline).
#7
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Well, okay, eating a little crow here.
I searched for "lc-1 e85" and only got one post. When I searched for "e85", a bunch come up.
But, didn't see any that discussed output reprogramming for E85. Either referred to Lambda, or the gasoline A/F ratio output.
I searched for "lc-1 e85" and only got one post. When I searched for "e85", a bunch come up.
But, didn't see any that discussed output reprogramming for E85. Either referred to Lambda, or the gasoline A/F ratio output.
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#8
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: Strange 12 bolt 3.42
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
Sorry I misread your post, didnt see it mentioned you already looked. OH
FIgured someone would have covered that.
FIgured someone would have covered that.
#9
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
The weather was nice here today, supposed to get nasty Tuesday and Wednesday, so I got it close enough for government work and took it out for a drive. My laptop insisted on running a Windows update, so I wasn't able to get the Innovate software loaded and running.
The default, as I understand it, is Lambda 1.0 = 14.7:1 for gasoline. Well, it rarely made it above 13, spent most of its time in the 11.5 range. It was better on the secondaries, but the primaries are totally screwed up. Light load and down-hill cruise were in the low 12's, might get to 14 when the secondaries were first opened (should mention I'm using the 1:1 link, but it will still cruise and do light power on the primaries only). Idle when it was fully warm was around 11.3.
I've got a bunch of work to do here. . .
The default, as I understand it, is Lambda 1.0 = 14.7:1 for gasoline. Well, it rarely made it above 13, spent most of its time in the 11.5 range. It was better on the secondaries, but the primaries are totally screwed up. Light load and down-hill cruise were in the low 12's, might get to 14 when the secondaries were first opened (should mention I'm using the 1:1 link, but it will still cruise and do light power on the primaries only). Idle when it was fully warm was around 11.3.
I've got a bunch of work to do here. . .
#10
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
14.7 gas = about 9.7 for E85 if your stuck using a regular wideband with no way to change the readout. Should just do a general search on widebands and E85 tuning instead of just on that site. Oh, on choosing the fuel, there's also a custom setting in the menu so you can input the 9.7 instead of their 9.0.
Last edited by EvilCartman; 03-23-2010 at 12:06 AM.
#11
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
That's what I was told on their forum. But, still haven't gotten the laptop through that Windows update, so still fussing with that.
It was my general search for wideband and E85 info that lead me to the Innovate forum. I've been on a couple of other E85 boards; tuning info is very sparse, but the 9.7 = Lambda 1.0 is one of the few consistent things I've found. How well it will do above and below 9.7 (above and below Lambda 1.0) - well, still haven't figured that out. Haven't figured out how to get the gauge to read out Lambda, for that matter. . .
It was my general search for wideband and E85 info that lead me to the Innovate forum. I've been on a couple of other E85 boards; tuning info is very sparse, but the 9.7 = Lambda 1.0 is one of the few consistent things I've found. How well it will do above and below 9.7 (above and below Lambda 1.0) - well, still haven't figured that out. Haven't figured out how to get the gauge to read out Lambda, for that matter. . .
#12
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
Ahh, isn't technology great. I'll mess around with mine tomorrow to see if I can change anything on the gauge. My guess as for what to shoot for, maybe try for 7-7.5 on the gauge for WOT power. Total guess though, at the track you could watch what the mph vs the gauge says. Mine right now for regular gas is dipping into the high 10's which is too rich, shooting for 12.5 ish and going from there.
#13
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
So far, I can't get the gauge to read anything other than what it would for regular gas. In the logworks program and the programer, there are the options of changing the fuel type. On mine in the programer, they do have the option for E85 but it's 9.8. Still can't see any change on the gauge itself though :/ I'll keep messing with it for a bit.
#14
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: FL
Car: 1989 Camaro RS
Engine: V6 - LS Swap Incoming
Transmission: 700R4 - T56 Mag F Incoming
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
Been a while since I've messed with log works but basicly you have the options to change the output of 1 and 2 out wires. That assumes your plugging a different gauge in or tying it into an ecm system. So when you configure the scale in logworks all your doing is changing what it's pushing out on those two out wires. Now per the instructions your brown wire on the LC-1 should be connected to the blue wire on the db9 gauge.
Now the DB9 Gague is not programable like the XD-16 which means the DB9 gague only reads the stock fuel curve based on the 0volt 5volt stock setting which is 0v = 7.35 and 5v = 22.39 AFR. If you change this then the DB9 will read wrong!
The DB9 only works if those settings are on the #2 wire or brown wire. Other wise you'll be shooting in the dark with incorrect numbers.
Now as for understanding the E85 numbers in the standard AFR format this is per another form on the subject.
From this website http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=9186
Hope this helps. I run an LC-1 DB-9 setup in my Cobalt SS S/C for almost 2 years now and love it.
Now the DB9 Gague is not programable like the XD-16 which means the DB9 gague only reads the stock fuel curve based on the 0volt 5volt stock setting which is 0v = 7.35 and 5v = 22.39 AFR. If you change this then the DB9 will read wrong!
The DB9 only works if those settings are on the #2 wire or brown wire. Other wise you'll be shooting in the dark with incorrect numbers.
Now as for understanding the E85 numbers in the standard AFR format this is per another form on the subject.
Shot for the same A/F that you would shot for with gas. It will be no diff even though its on the gas scall. Because the O2 sensor really reads Lambda and then converts it to A/F its still reading the E85 the right way even though its translating it to you in a gas A/F scall. So when it reads 14.7 its still reading the stoich of the E85 ( what ever its true number would be) .
ON a power adder I would go around 11.5 to 12.2 WOT with the power adder. The engine will tell you if it needs to go a little richer than that, or needs less timing.
E85 can stand a wider range of A/F numbers than gas and still be safe, or run smooth. At a cruise for example I am runnning around 16.5 (gas scale, but with E85). I cant run that lean with gas it will surge and missfire. At WOT I run 12.8 to 13.2 WOT and it loves it, but I am not running a power adder, that is N/A. EVen if I let it get leaner, or richer at WOT it still runs good with no problems because its much more forgiving.
So pretty much you have been told right about what to run. The main thing to remember is the sensor is still reading Lambda so it knows what the E85 is at, even though it is telling you in a gas A/F scale, its still so much % leaner, or richer than stoich. Doing it this way is just much easier when the gas A/F scale is what your use to. If your use to reading Lambda then you can go to the lambda scale, but when your not use to Lambda you will find yourself refering back to the gas A/F scale to even understand what its telling you, so no use to change.
Jess
ON a power adder I would go around 11.5 to 12.2 WOT with the power adder. The engine will tell you if it needs to go a little richer than that, or needs less timing.
E85 can stand a wider range of A/F numbers than gas and still be safe, or run smooth. At a cruise for example I am runnning around 16.5 (gas scale, but with E85). I cant run that lean with gas it will surge and missfire. At WOT I run 12.8 to 13.2 WOT and it loves it, but I am not running a power adder, that is N/A. EVen if I let it get leaner, or richer at WOT it still runs good with no problems because its much more forgiving.
So pretty much you have been told right about what to run. The main thing to remember is the sensor is still reading Lambda so it knows what the E85 is at, even though it is telling you in a gas A/F scale, its still so much % leaner, or richer than stoich. Doing it this way is just much easier when the gas A/F scale is what your use to. If your use to reading Lambda then you can go to the lambda scale, but when your not use to Lambda you will find yourself refering back to the gas A/F scale to even understand what its telling you, so no use to change.
Jess
Hope this helps. I run an LC-1 DB-9 setup in my Cobalt SS S/C for almost 2 years now and love it.
#15
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
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Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
That thread I had read (came up on my "lc-1 e85" search). But, there wasn't any meaningful activity after the post you copied, and I was just beginning to understand the terminology, so I didn't pay it much mind.
His 11.5-12.2 power recommendation is .782-.829 Lambda, so sounds close to other recommendations.
I'd be happy as could be with seeing a 12.0 under power. I discovered tonight that my configuration documentation was very lacking, and my memory even worse. I didn't have the air bleeds, jets, or squirters installed that I thought I did. I put the bleeds back to what I thought they were (much larger), was only able to run it at an idle for a few minutes (was getting late, and the mufflers are too loud for the neighbors that late at night), but compared to Monday's results the cold idle A/F went from 11.5 to 13+. Much, much better. I hope to get it warmed up tomorrow evening and see what it does.
This is exciting. I've never had real data like this to work with outside of work. . .
His 11.5-12.2 power recommendation is .782-.829 Lambda, so sounds close to other recommendations.
I'd be happy as could be with seeing a 12.0 under power. I discovered tonight that my configuration documentation was very lacking, and my memory even worse. I didn't have the air bleeds, jets, or squirters installed that I thought I did. I put the bleeds back to what I thought they were (much larger), was only able to run it at an idle for a few minutes (was getting late, and the mufflers are too loud for the neighbors that late at night), but compared to Monday's results the cold idle A/F went from 11.5 to 13+. Much, much better. I hope to get it warmed up tomorrow evening and see what it does.
This is exciting. I've never had real data like this to work with outside of work. . .
#16
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
After installing mine, it sure helped me out to quickly get the car running better.
#17
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 211
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From: FL
Car: 1989 Camaro RS
Engine: V6 - LS Swap Incoming
Transmission: 700R4 - T56 Mag F Incoming
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
This is exciting. I've never had real data like this to work with outside of work. . .
Check it out if you ever plan to swap an LS based motor in your Bel Air.
#19
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
On my old GSX i was running a 12.7 stoic, then wot was roughly 9:1, much richer than gas... When I was running meth injection I tuned for 11:1 wot, and 14.5 stoic. Ran hard like that at 20lbs. I had a LC-1 too, you can do a lot with the tuning software innovate gives you.. The usb is nice too. DSMlink used a 9pin serial when I had it.. ugh
#20
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
I did get out for one more drive. It's still pretty rich at idle, very rich at cruise, and leans out at high RPMs. According to a member on the innovate forum who spent a lot of time working over a Holley for E85, my air bleeds are too big (causes the high RPM lean-out). So, need to get that under control, then work from there. Probably means smaller primary jets and bigger secondary jets along with the main air bleed change.
#21
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From: Northern CA.
Car: '82 Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH400 4,000 stall
Axle/Gears: Currie 9", 4.56 gears
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
Yup, time to get some blanks and a small drill bit kit. Mine is rich during cruise and just about right at WOT. There's a couple things you can do with the idle feed restrictor too depending on if it's in the top or bottom position.
#22
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
To cover the range of sizes needed, from my research so far, I'd need two sets of drill bits, a little over $100 for the two.
#24
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From: Littleton, CO USA
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
With E85 I'm shooting for 12.0. Gasoline typically is more like 12.5.
Took it to the track today. Was fine until RPMs got about 5000 or so (which is pretty quick with 4000 stall), then started to lean out, getting above 13 and still climbing at 6000 RPMs. Put in smaller main air bleeds, steadied right out to 11.9/12.0 throughout the pass.
Still far from perfect, particularly with idle. Would love to sort that out.
Took it to the track today. Was fine until RPMs got about 5000 or so (which is pretty quick with 4000 stall), then started to lean out, getting above 13 and still climbing at 6000 RPMs. Put in smaller main air bleeds, steadied right out to 11.9/12.0 throughout the pass.
Still far from perfect, particularly with idle. Would love to sort that out.
#25
Re: Innovate LC-1, DB digital gauge installed
Here is some info. http://e85forum.com/about794.html&highlight=afr
Check out eric68 and Drag chevette they both build e85 carbs.
Check out eric68 and Drag chevette they both build e85 carbs.
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