Floorman279

im not sure which one to put this under since its a fuel question but i heard that some gas companies are putting 10% ethanol in 87 annd 5% in 89. i beleive 0% in premium. what is best to run in a stock 350 and what is best for very mildly odified 350 thanks.

blg0720

They are putting the ethanol in gas, indeed. I found out the hard way that ethanol will eat rubber fuel lines. If you don't want any ethanol in your gas, run premium. It will only improve things and won't hurt your carb.

Floorman279

well i always knew that there was 5% in 87 but they recently now put 10% in 87 and 5% in 89. im not really sure if etahnol is bad for your motor or not. if anyone knows please let me know. all i know is its certainly is not good for your motor.

blg0720

Well, ethanol is corn alcohol. I imagine that will dry out any rubber seals in addition to destroying your fuel line. I'll be running premium in the GTA from day one.

Floorman279

i actually just read an article about it on how it works, but it wass really just explaining hwio its made. i also just read that ethanol overtime dissolves rubber and aluminum so thats why you're fuel liens got messed up but i think you already knew that. i think im just goona run 2/3 89 and 1/3 premium just to save my stuff and a little bit of money

HarmonyCamaro

hmm i've been running with super unleaded and regualy unleaded with ethenal... for a year now nothing happened it and my last fill up i put premium and my car seems to run like crap which is wierd...

blg0720

On my 83, it took about four or five fillups on a 25 y.o. fuel system. The leak is small, but it's there. Maybe it's starting to happen and just happened at the same time you put premium in....or maybe you just got a bad tank of Premium. Who knows...but now I've seen from two different sources that ethanol eats rubber.

HarmonyCamaro

yea but i ran my car for like twenty minutes on the road and i didn't see any wet spots after that

Floorman279

well i was just wondering how gas mileage, power, and length of engine life is estimated for someone who is running ethanol in their cars.

csmith3

I don't run anything but Sunoco 94 in my LS powered cars, because as stated earlier ethanol eats rubber and aluminum. Since the LS motors are all aluminum no ethanol. But It won't hurt your cast iron headed SBC motor. I've been runnig 89 in my 87 Formula (modified 350, with all emissions working properly) and it seems to be doing just fine. Some "smart" politicians at the federal level think that putting ethanol in gas it cuts down on nox. I don't know if it does or not. Probably just some good ole boy stuff to get cousin billy the farmer paid.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Wow, what a load of misinformation here. . .

Ethanol has been mandated in all U.S. gasoline for automotive use, all grades, for a couple of years now. It has been used as an oxygenating agent for over 20 years. All "rubber" hose sold as gasoline-compatible is also ethanol-compatible, and has been for since at least the mid-80's.

"Gasahol", typically 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline, is higher octane than the gasoline itself. So, it's a good octane booster in relatively low concentrations. Ethanol also absorbs water, so it is a good gas line antifreeze.

E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline. I've been using it exclusively in the '57 since 2006. It has the original fuel tank and factory-type pick-up (I did change it from the 5/16" pick-up that it came with to a 3/8" pick-up). I installed new 3/8" aluminum fuel line up to the engine compartment, and previously used regular parts-store rubber line between the aluminum and fuel pump (currently all solid line, converted to an electric pump & regulator last year). There are absolutely no compatibility issues with the ethanol and the fuel system materials on that 52-year-old car.

So, enough with all of the horror stories. If you had a problem with ethanol gasoline, it wasn't because of the ethanol. Get your facts straight before you post.

Floorman279

all i know is im goona try my best not to use ethanol in my cars

safemode

iTrader: (1)

edit: I see someone above beat me to it...damn work. Anyways, the stuff below basically mirrors what's just been said above. The alcohol isn't to blame, if anything it's the water that comes with it and the practices of some shady places to boost octane ratings of otherwise crap fuel. < / edit>


ethanal burns at a higher temp, and has less to burn....hence less unburnt fuel and less Nox from the burnt fuel. Basically, it's like watering down the gasoline.

Most if not all fuel components made after the 80's are made to handle ethanol. so I'm not sure blaming ethanol is the right thing to do when you're talking about a 15-20 year old car. Replacement parts may or may not have been replaced with components that are made to handle ethanol but in 99% of cases, they will be.

What will damage the components is water. Water likes to follow alcohol (considering that the alcohol added is has anywhere from 5-15% water in it... it's not 200 proof). So depending on where you get your gas, you are now introducing the water in the added alcohol to whatever water the cheapest gas station (which is likely where you're buying from) "allows" in their underground fuel tanks.
Different companies have different suppliers of gas (Sometimes) and they will have different qualities of alcohol added to their fuel. Some use better, higher proof, but most opt for cheaper lower proof alcohols, and thus will have more water in their fuels.

But i would beware of depending soley on octane rating. And I would seriously doubt the idea that less alcohol is used in higher octane gas. Ethanol has an octane rating of 116. That means, higher octane fuels can actually likely have more ethanol in them then lower octane fuels. Ie. Gas company buys regular 87 octane gasoline, then to make mid and high grade, simply adds more ethanol to the mix. Bang, there are your 3 grades.

That's not necessarily how they do it, but it's how it can be done, and it's legal. Different gas companies do things differently so you have to figure out which one is not giving you crap gas and go with that, and beware of lower cost places that get their fuel from the lowest bidder every month or so.

for more info on the octane rating setup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

Ethanol is put in to reduce emissions, and it accomplishes this by having less energy than gasoline, thus when it burns, less emissions are produced. The problem comes from the water when you talk about damage to the fuel system and that all depends on what quality of alcohol your supplier is using, not so much in how much ethanol is being used. (granted, we're talking no more than 10% or so, obviously if ethanol is used more than that some timing adjustments and such will be needed)

ridecamro

well at least in MN i know it's 10% 87 and 89. and you can buy non- ethonal premiun at some stations for your selds. and boats but pretty much every were is 10% now. adding more to gas to get high raitings.. well they can exceded the 10% unless it is in the legislation. cause i know for a fact. the both refineries by me are on the way to be 20% in MN by next year but can't mix anything above 10% right now. i'm a fitter and work at the refineries.. and have been following a bill thats trying to make it .. ect ect. been following this subject for quite some time.

but you should also know that some blends of ethonal and gas are also more coresive then just striaght ethonal is by it's self

blue85305

i have to agree with 57kid here. no real harm from the ethanol, not in the realatively low concentrations in the pump anyway.

RS Reaper

Well my old Ford Explorer when I put 15% (Kroger) ethanol gas in it the engine would knock, when I put 10% (QuickTrip) in it didn't and ran smoother. Take it as you'd like all I know is I use only 10% ethanol in my cars.

blue85305

i know in tx (dfw) at least, all the local gas pumps have a sticker that says up to 15% ethanol. But refer to 57kid's above post, ethanol shouldn't cause any knock. But if like stated above, the amount of ethanol in the gas is varied by grade, then your knock with 15% ethanol blend probably has more to do with insufficient octane/possible carbon buildup.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not true. It evaporates at a higher temperature, but burns at a lower temperature. NOx is formed at high pressures and temperatures. The function of the EGR valve is to lower combustion temperatures. Ethanol produces fewer NOx compounds because it burns at a lower temperature.

also not true. Lower energy per volume is a fact. Meaning you need more of it to produce the same energy output from the engine. It reduces emissions because there is less non-energy-producing crap in it. It also contains some oxygen.

The octane of a given fuel is the sum of all of the parts. If you're getting pinging with 15% ethanol, it's because they're using a lower octane gasoline in that formulation.

Also, don't forget that the octane number on the pump sticker is an average - (R+M)/2. The "research" method is less real-world than the "motor" method of testing for octane. You can get the "number" with a poorer gasoline that has a high "research" number but a lower "motor" number. Conversely, a gasoline with a lower "research" number but higher "motor" number might produce less pinging in your engine, but will have the same octane number on the pump as the poorer gasoline.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

EGR does this by introducing exhaust gas which has less Oxygen and thus is mostly inert as a volume filler in the combustion chamber. Less stuff gets burned, thus lower temperatures. (edit, and thus lower nox since less stuff is being burned in the first place)

I may have been wrong about the temp ethanol burns at though.
You need more of it, but you dont get more of it. Your injectors aren't putting more alcohol in to compensate for the lack of energy density compared to regular gasoline. Thus you have less stuff to burn with gasoline mixed with ethanol than with plain gasoline, because the volume your engine uses to burn is the same in both cases.

Basically, your engine has less of the building blocks to create NOx and CO and HC emissions, because the energy density of the fuel has been lowered, and the volume has remained the same.


The two methods involve the engine being under no load and the other being under a load, and various formulations will perform differently in either test. So that's definitely valid. Gotta love how the R and M numbers dont have to be listed, only the average.

I still think a major issue is how there is no regulation ( at least publicly visible) on the quality of alcohol being used. Legally i believe they are allowed to use anything from 100 to 90% ethanol to make up the 10% ethanol in the fuel. This adds water to the gasoline, and how much depends on how expensive of an alcohol they decided to use. It's not unknown for places to use even less than 90% ethanol to save some bucks, since the less pure the alcohol is, the cheaper.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

I think part of the misunderstanding here about why ethanol reduces emissions has to be with you assuming you are outputting the same power in both situations. In that case, the engine with the ethanol mix will have to consume more fuel to produce the same power. since ethanol produces something like 28% less energy per volume, and there is 10% (eg) in the gasoline, that means there is roughtly 3% less energy per volume of gasoline. With all things being equal, this would mean to produce the same power, output, you'd need to burn 3% more fuel. That's assuming it's 100% ethanol being mixed in, and no water....which is not going to be true in reality. Any water in the gasoline would add to the loss in power which equates to an increase in the amount of fuel needed to maintain a given power. Though, emissions would not be increased proportionally, because the water remains unchanged throughout, so you're just consuming more fuel... Hence people who deal with E10 say their mileage drops, yet they are passing emissions tests. You're paying for the water that comes with the E10.

My argument is that rather than ethanol burning cleaner is being the reason the emissions are lower, it's because there's less stuff to burn altogether for any given volume of fuel that produces less emissions. The power output of the engine drops accordingly and the emissions test does not compensate for the loss in power. All they care about is driving the wheels to a certain mph, which would not be effected in any significant way by the loss in power caused by the alcohol.

The vast majority of benefits from alcohol is in correcting engines not properly running (due to cold temps and such) or in drag racers that use the thermal properties of the fuel to overcome obstacles you meet at those huge combustion numbers with other fuels. The emissions from alcohol are mixed as for as better for you or not compared to gasoline. Some things are lowered, some things are increased (notably CO and HC is higher in alcohol burning) What's never tested though is the car on a dyno.

I think the biggest factor behind ethanol being used is as another subsidy to corn farmers. but that's for a different topic.