IHI

iTrader: (1)

Alot of my inital reading was older information that they based of "percieved" octane ratings as one normally would when comparing to gas...and the old thought was 12:1 was about it with 12:5 being it. Well, after speaking with all 5 of these places that have to make dyno runs on different combinations for R&D it seems upto 14:1 has no issues what so ever and quick fuel actually was making pulls with a 16:1 BBC and said there were zero signs of problems/pre-ignition on any of the pulls they made...if I would've know this prior to ordering my heads, and known I was going to switch to E85, I would've ordered my heads with the 64cc chambers to get all of the 13.5:1 compression is was built for, instead of knocking it down...oh well, live and learn.

As far as the carb...IMO, to each his own...but for me, I race to try and make money, so I need everything to work right and work right for the duration with minimal "issues" during a testing phase I know nothing about, nor have any inkling to know nothing about...there are guys that own shops that specalize/are smart in this sort of thing, and all of them make specific carbs for gas, specific carbs for alcohol, and specific carbs for E85....if it was as easy as just swapping a jet everybody would do it.

QF does sell the parts needed to upfit your carb so it runs like it should on E85, metering blocks were $132 last night when I checked...then you must get the rest of the parts to go along with it. Today i was quoted $400-550 to upfit my carb and have it set up for my engine so it's a bolt on a run deal....anybody that has sent a carb out knows exactly what Im talking about...these carb companies know their stuff and literally make it a bolt on deal...even down to the idle mixture screw setting!!!

I'm fortunate I have the means to justify the expense to make it right and let other do the work...but that is also the reason I need my car to perform out of the box since I need it to earn it's keep with such investments...we've talked before about this philosophy and you know where i stand...I love the DIY on certain things...but drivetrain wise, too much is at stake investment wise and money to win wise for me to be stupid and think I know more than the guys that do this day in and day out.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Alright I agree with you, but at that price and how little I drive the car, might be better off with race gas on the next build. Now it's just a matter of deciding higher compression and E85/110 race gas, or twin turbo and the same issue. Carb would have to be sent out for a blow through setup for boost, so having them swap parts over at the same time would make sense. Now just to pick the next combo now that I'm done breaking 10 bolts and 9 bolts.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

The quick and easy- high compression N/A motor

The extremely stupid fast-TT set-up.

On another board I guess the buick grand national guys are having a feild day with this E85 stuff, they've worked out maps to make normal driving the same as always, and then they can really put the coals to 'em once the foot hits the floor since the cooler fuel charge allows more boost and no pre-igniton...if I did'nt care about bracket race consistancy...a turbo set-up would be on my next agenda

Mike Tritle

Josh, thank you for your input and experience here! I knew Marv and the boys at Quick Fuel were going after it as we've had a couple of conversations in the past few months.

Be careful in buying fuel this time of year w/o checking with the blender. Winter E85 is usually around 70% in the northern regions to enhance cold starting of flex fuel vehicles. With the high latent heat of evaporation of ethanol, this is needed to prevent cold drivability problems when the temps get in the winter range. This does also reduce the octane a point or two but error is to rich rather than lean so you can tune accordingly.

Our suppliers here usually don't switch until first of May. That's why I don't fill the tank in the Cuda until later in the year. And, yes, bring a jet kit because if your running for ET or speed you may need to adjust for each load of fuel. As popularity increases, so will availability of better regulated blends. You will just have to trust me on that for now...

Now, because of its affinity for water, I strongly recommend anyone dabbling with ethanol based fuels to get and install a Ramco fuel filter/water seperator as well. They can be reached at 701-476-1320. I tested one last year and had excellent results. It flows (up to 300 gph) w/o pressure loss and has a simple (and compact) 5 micron spin on replacement filter and it isn't all that expensive either. Ask them for the Flowmax 300 and tell them I sent you. Water won't hurt you other than causing lean out of the mixture. If you're running on the edge that can be real bad.

NXSLT1

I finally got my stock LT1 with a roots blower running on E85. Took awhile to figure out the air/fuel ratio thing but basically you let the computer do the adjusting. Unless you calibrate the wideband O2 for E85 just tune it for a 14.7:1 AFR just like with gas, then WOT tuning I've got it set to about 11:1 just like with gas. If you calibrate the wideband for the E85 then stoich AFR needs to be about 9.7:1 and WOT (for a blown motor) needs to be somewhere around a 7 - 7.5:1, have to play with it for each individual motor. I know this doesn't apply to most of you carb guys unless yer using a wideband but I thought I'd post it up in case somebody needs the info in the future. I'm still getting some knock down low but I'm in the process of plumbing an injector into the top of the blower. Hopefully it'll cool the blower down (gets quite warm) and that will help cool the incoming air down too. I know it keeps the fuel rails quite cool, regular gasoline didn't do that. I should have that done by tomorrow. According to Weiand's website, depending on how you read the chart, I'm running anywhere from 13.5 to 15:1 comp ratio with 7lb max boost. Should run according to what I read here if I can get the air temps down a bit.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I made a discovery that was a little disconcerting: Not all gasoline additives like E85. I've been using AMSOIL PI for a couple of decades, it keeps the fuel system squeaky clean and provides an upper cylinder lube. However, it gets gummy when in that much alcohol. The worst seems to be surfaces "open" to the air like the carb venturi/throttle blades and intake manifold. Since I used the two of them all last season, I'm going to run gasoline at least for the near term to make sure that stuff is all cleaned out. It didn't appear to cause any permanent damage, it's running fine on 91 pump gas, so we'll see when/whether I'll go back to E85.

First T&T I'll be able to get out to is this Saturday. Points season starts a week from tomorrow - not the best of timing to make a switch and start building a database.

Mike Tritle

Well, first of all you don't need any additives with ethanol to keep the system clean. In fact, I use E85 as a carburetor cleaner/soak. As for lubricant, a very small dose of Seafoam or Marvel Mistery Oil will do the trick. I'll so this only when I take it for a spin around town on the street and just before I put the car up for the winter. Before hitting the track I pump the tank and put the mix in my pickup or wife's car. I don't use either when racing and fuel pumps, carb and regualtor are all performing up to spec w/o any signs of gooping. By small dose, I mean one or two oz./5 gals. I mix it in the jug.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yeah, I wasn't going after the detergent properties, just the upper cylinder lube. I emailed AMSOIL's tech department asking them about compatibility with E85 and their response was, "At this time we do not recommend using PI with E85."

The primaries have apparently cleaned up with the gasoline, but the secondaries don't get as much flow so I'm going to pull the carb apart and try to clean it all up.

Now, if I just had $750 for a Quickfuel E85 carb . . .
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/QFT-Q-750-E85/

Mike Tritle

Gumout should do it. Keep us posted

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Actually, I determined it readily dissolves in gasoline. I pulled the carb apart, it was squeaky clean again. I did however have a bad mount gasket (reusing the gasket from one intake to another wasn't too bright), and rejetting seemed to bring it back around again.

But, then, I thought it was okay when I took it out on the street last time, and T&T was a disaster. Next chance is time trials for the first points race of the season. I guess we'll see.

Is anyone selling just the E85 metering blocks? Didn't see anything on Summit's site. But, then, the info they have on the E85 Quick Fuel carb is wacko, too - jetting like gasoline, even says "Fuel - Gasoline" in the tech data. Come on, guys, get it right!

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Dumb little update. I got my new metering blocks last thursday, I let the guy I'm ordering the upfitted parts through go through my carb to see what I had for gas, and he then noted and ordered what I needed in addition to the new metering blocks to run the E85, basically bigger squirters, hollow squirter screws, I did have him order the new high flow QF PV for the front metering block and will still plug the rear PV hole like normal, diaphram, etc...they should all be in today sometime, then I can do a run down. I wanted to wait before ordering jets and air bleeds until I was on the dyno and seen exactly where I need to be at since there are just tooo many variables for a shot in the dark, and Im not that lucky.

I just ordered THIS a few minutes ago with an extra filter since I can only imagine what this inital filter wioll look like if this E85 "cleans my tank" like everybody is stating. If nothing else, I wish I would've gotten this yrs ago. high flow filter capable of trapping 5 microns!! I've been using the SS inline filters and they allow alot of junk through, so hopefully this will be in within the next week so I can start my finalized plumbing. For the money I think this filter set-up is a no brainer for any type of car/fuel system.

Once I get my new E85 conversion parts in hand I will put them together and take pictures so you guys know what parts are needed for the conversion if you want to do it yourself. All of the parts are coming from Quick Fuel, and I have right at $201 for all the parts, jets and air bleeds will be on top of that naturally once we figure out what I have to have.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

That filter looks like a really good deal, might have to order one myself when I step up to that aero SS pump for my setup. Sounds like your project is coming along nicely Josh.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

No, my project is sucking moneky nutz LOL!! The car is rewired (cleaned things up big time under the hood with wire rerouting what I could within reason, brakes are completely swapped over to manual, so I'm at the stage of the shortblock holding up my production. It was supposed to be done tomorrow (Weds) but I called him yesterday and he said the bearings he ordered Thursday did'nt show up Fri. or Mon., so I'll call him tonight before they close and see what the latest is...the engine is holding up everyting at this point.

Since this new mill has a bigger/better pan, I have to notch out my cross member to celar it, but have to wait until I have the engine.

All the new wiring is laying long and loose, waiting for the engine to get sat in there so I know where to make final connections.

New fuel lines are plumbed to the engine bay and also left long and loose, waiting for the engine to get sat it so I know where to make final connections.

Finished porting my intake yesterday, but waiting to set it on the engine before I buy all the AN fittings to plumb all the additional head cooling parts.

Have to wait until I set my heads to set up my Jessels, so I can set up pushrod length and get them ordered as well as check piston to valve clearance

This waiting is killing me...but it's also allowing my debit card to cool down to a normal state for a breif period LOL!! I hate wiating for things, just ask all the subs I use for my jobs, I'll nag them to death so they do my work asap so I can get the thing done!!

arenateam

interesting...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Wow, if there were any E85 stations around here I'd definitely build my motor around that... There's 2 that are not in convenient locations. They seem to be government affiliated, too?


Seems like it would save a gaggle of money ot keep a thirsty V8 fed... AND give you a little more power.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The price for E85 varies a lot. Last summer there was one station here that sold it for $1.999, and another that priced it along with regular unleaded. The latter was the one closest to me, of course.

The other side is that you burn more E85 than you do gasoline. So, even if the price is lower, you'll use more. A two-edged sword.

It's typically significantly cheaper than 105 octane gasoline, though.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It would be great to support american-grown fuel. I can only see E85 getting cheaper and cheaper if it ever gathers enough steam and middle eastern political dramas won't affect fuel prices so much.

2oldFbody

Does any one have any new E-85 info to share. The more info I get the better I like it.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Still waiting on pushrods, hopefully dyno time soon to follow once they come in and I button this thing up....I hate waiting...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

IHI, where did you find the QF metering blocks? I've looked all over their website, Summit, etc., only thing I can find is a complete E85 carb and alcohol adjustable metering blocks.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Give this guy a hollar, I race with him at our home track (his wife actually works in the tower), very stand up guy with great customer service so you wont have any troubles placing and recieveing orders. He's sold a ton of this E85 conversion stuff to the turbo mustang guys in MN, and he took the time to do some research of his own to make sure I got the parts I needed for my project. Based on my experience, just have all your current carb info at the ready, squirter size, diaphram size, PV, jetting, etc...everything that's bolted onto and into your carb, this way he can get a "window" of where it all needs to be for all the other items other than the just the metering blocks.

I know he used to sell some E85 on ebay too, but now you have the direct line and will be better off this way. Just leet him know Josh reffered you so we all stay in the big happy circle of hook-ups LOL!!!

Gene Hinders,
E-mail Address: glorydaysracing@yahoo.com

And to stay current with this thread, I FINALLY recieved my pushrods yesterday from Comp.....if you ever have to have them custom made 2.5 weeks is the lead time so placing an over night order through Jegs tomorrow to get remaining AN fittings and other misc items here by Tuesday so the motor is buttoned up. I was going to schedule dyno for next saturday, but my buddy that's frineds with the shop owner is racing in Indy and the shop owner is going with, so it now has to wait a fw weeks since we have a points race the following weekend after they're back from indy on the 26/27 and then I have to go to MN for their daughters graduation party the first weekend in June....summer time is here...no rest and no time for anything

2oldFbody

Any new info I just wanted to keep this thread alive and well.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I went ahead and rejetted/rebleeded my carb for E85. Wasn't happy with the results from the first two race nights. There were other factors, but I decided to take this one out of it.

The station that had E85 for $1.999 last year is $2.399 now. Supposed to be 15 more stations carrying it in the metro Denver area sometime soon, but I haven't been able to identify any that are closer to me than the ones I already knew about.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Leaving for MN soon as I drop my daughter off at school Fri morning, hopefully be bolted on the dyno by 11am, and praying break in goes good so I can come back with a running motor!!! It's been the typical hurry up and wait to get this stupid thing together, did the 4/7 swap cam, all my plug wires were able to be reused except one!!! Had to order one from summit, just got that installed tonight, tomorrow if it's raining I want to finish pulling the existing plug wires back apart since I ran all my wires under the header, so I'm installing the fiberglass wire wrap and plug booties to help protect them since it gets hot in there. New fuel system in the car, had to order a few fittings today, so thursday everything should be operational car wise, picking up a convertor to try out tomorrow.

So long as everything goes good up north, I may try to drop it in and burn some midnight oil Fri night and give her a road test Saturday pending rain, then off to the track and see what happens.

I will have plenty of info if all goes well, but realistically it will be a busy weekend, so it may be Monday night before I can make a novel long post with some of our testing/findings....just pray she holds together LOL!! Always get scared firing up a new mill

Mike Tritle

Ahh, nothing like the first firing of a new motor! Keep us posted!

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Amen, then the first month or so your always on pins and needles until your comfortable nothing is going to happen LOL!!

Either way, I will have a celebratory cold one and will either be smiling or crying during consumption LOL!! Just hoping it will relight the fire getting behind the wheel of my own car again...to hard to drive other peoples cars in a class where less than perfect usually sends ya packing, and it takes alot of confidence away from you, even though ya know going in it will be a tough battle.

I opted to sell the belt drive fuel system...too much work to fab it all up for a street/strip car, so sold that and went with the A1000 and A1000by-pass regulator. I did get that Ramco water/fuel seperator/filter and installed that post sump/pre pump, ansious to see how well it really filters since I know the typical stainless mesh ones are'nt worth a crap. Sp long as it feeds the beast and prevents nasties from getting in my carb, that thing will definately be the "stupid not to buy it" product of the century. Very nice compact unit with easy serviceability for the price....knocks the socks off of anything else I've ever looked at over the years for fuel filtering in both price and micron size, with the high flow capacity to boot.

Testing i want to do:
Fire it up, warm it up, inital break in and base line pull. Shut down, drain oil, cut filter, check lash, new oil/filter and if all looks good, compense the brutality
1st run 110 octane pump gas
2nd run tune jetting/timing to 110
3rd tune to 110 and make sure it's maxed, or keep making adjustiments until it's maxed
4th run carb spacers, and concecutive runs until we find the size/shape that does the best
5th run, bolt on air cleaner and see what that does for giggles

6th run convert carb to E85 parts
7,8,9 tune and do carb spacers all over again.

depending on plugs, may try a colder one, I opted for the alky plugs which are the hottest the Autolites have for this plug dimension, so depending on numbers and how they look, those might get swapped as well. We have the dyno all day last I heard yesterday night, so other than getting board I'll fart around with as many viable things as possible...would also like to wire up the alt to see what kind of drain that pulls, but i cant see it making much of a difference on a motor like this either way....lost 10hp on a stocker, you feel it, lose it on a 600+hp motor...you'll never miss it.

Mike Tritle

I think you will find that keeping the voltage up with the alternator will raise the ignition efficiency to the point where the difference is moot. Harold Elliott did extensive dyno testing when he worked for Ray Beadle building motors for Rusty Wallace in the 80's. He found that starting off with a fully charged battery and enough alternator to run all the accessories that dyno error surpassed any measurability of HP difference. Running w/o an alternator actually hurt them especially when the battery got low.

Charging between rounds is killer on batteries. Fast charging only heats them up and in many cases causes warpage. Once the engine is fired the starter draw often draws out any results of the fast charge.

I also worked with a number of sportman index class racers on tach problems at the top end. In almost every situation adding the alternator solved both the tach problem and increased the back half speed and consistency. The conclusion? Low battery under maximum ignition load. Even when opening the cut off switch after the burnout the run performance increased.

Best bet is to wire a switch that shuts down the alternator during the run. You just have to remember to turn it back on at the top end!

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I know the alt discussion has been beat to death on about any car/racing forum, personally I would'nnt run without one since it's one less thing I have to do in the pits (remember to charge) plus the hassle of carrying a generator and stringing cords....I actually found, and call this stupid coincedence, my car gained a little better round to round consistency NOT charging between rounds...and that's even with my fans and water pump running until the car reaches 140* and shuts itself off.

A few seasons ago I did frag an alt belt and picked up .2 in the 1/4 which got me thinking. I just charged between rounds, kept the car dialed .2 faster than all previous runs and did just fine, so I thought about wiring in a kill switch during a pass, but after a little thought, it was just more labor and thinking to do on an already mentally taxing day, so I just left it as it's supposed to be and car runs great......biggest reason I wanted to try it is for a what the heck pull....for our own curisoity...same with when I change oil to full synthetic...I'm not expecting the world, but I am a very scientific person that needs to see with my own eye's before I put much stock into any hear say the racing/car hobby is plauged with as I know your awarae of

Mike Tritle

2 Tenths????? That's 20 HP! Were you running a cooling fan and water pump on the same belt? I got that kind of performance when I installed an electric water pump drive and took that load off the crank.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Everything is electric: fuel pump, water pump, dual electric fans, windows, stereo, 140amp alt....all I can think is that big alt was really pulling down some amps to fill the battery back up...I dunno, but it is what it is and that's why I was sp intreged but eliminating it on race day (pulling the belt) or shutting it down for when going for a fast times slip.....but I dont really care how fast the car will go and am too lazy to rejet from my race tune on great air days to find out...

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I left this am and got on the road late at 6:15am, arrived at shop in MN (3hrs north of me) to dyno at 9am.....it is now 2:44am and I am just getting home...kinda tell you how the day went

Shop that did my last engine did this one, once it was bolted on the dyno it fired right up, and we noticed right away oil psi was rather low at idle 12psi. Started to ramp up the rpms to see if it went up, which it did, but not at the rate to keep up with rpm and the oil psi stopped gaining and started falling once it reached 40psi. Drained oil which looked great, pulled pan, pulled oil pump, noticed by-pass was sticking wide open....took it apart, honed it, freed it up and installed new spring (thinking when whomever welded the pick-up on got it too hot and warped the passage) put it back together. Also noticed a ton of crap in bottom of pan...basically the same crap that was in there when I dropped all the parts off to the shop which he was supposed to jet wash and clean out. Also took oil pump apart...same fricken used oil pump that was in the motor initally that see debris go through it..rotors were hashed, casing was hashed. Drove 45min round trip to get new pump, swapped bottoms (special pick-up that is made for this oil pan). Installed, fired up, same thing little to no oil psi.

Next we pulled the oil psi port to blow air into the motor to see if we could hear air bleeding out, like a plug was missed. We heard air, but could'nt track down exact location. Pulled dizzy, inserted drill adapter and started to spin it, oil was coming out of all the mains like a fricken waterfall...literally. pulled the rear main cap, the guy installed standard bearings on a 10 under crank By now it was 5pm after all the jacking around, found 1 shop 1 hour away that had 400 crank bearings 10 under, so we goes and get them. Come back, pull and swap all the mains out, and put back together, bolt back onto dyno.

Long story short, this dyno is very conservative...the guy I race with said it will basically tell you exactly what is going to the ground....not flywheel...so it's a very stingey dyno, which is fine. Told me to take the numbers and multiply by 11% or .11 to get a darn near exact flywheel rating based off all the engines they do..so doing that I only managed 608hp @ 6400 and 568tq 5100

Was really hoping for 625, but I think my bumpstick is just waaaay to conservative, and even I questioned the specs initally, but trusted them based off last stick they ground for me. Best numbers were with the E85, but 110 gas was not far off, I will post better numbers later when I get time...fricken tired right now, and want to drop it in the car tomorrow. But dyno guy was pretty disappointed tq numbers did'nt jump up like he thought theys would/should and blamed the stick and offered to orderd a new grind for me to try, but it's a bracket car so I dont care to go through the trouble as I should be able to run mid 10's....just not low 10's like I wanted.

I did'nt bother to try the QF stuff I bought, basically got talked out of it, and after seeing the nubers as we tuned I saw no need to go there...plus it was too late since shop is in town and it was noisey with muffler outlets on side of building....if we would'nt of had such a disaster we would've tried the metering blocks, but we did'nt so we went with how he tunes them, and dynoing seems to be a very precise way to hit the mark as opposed to time slips...motor idles great, no flat spots, but we'll see once it's in the car. I can tell you this, once we switched to E85, the engine sounded COMPLETELY different....very very crisp/snappey/repsonsive...literally day and night you'd have to hear, but I was smilin ear to ear...man it sounds nasty on that stuff over race gas!!!! just wish it'd back it up # wise E85 tases like crap too....I filled a jug from one of two drums I bought that were in the back of my truck at that point in the night....initally tasted like vodka until the gasoline hit and man...nasty!!!! guess some indian said you can drink it if you filter it through bread??? LMFAO!!! I dont wanna know or find out...mouthful was enough for me.

Definatelly a stroker....we're over 500ft lbs from 4200-5000 and it does'nt drop but below 470 until it's in the 6000rpm range...nice towing engine. just sucks hp was down so much, shoulda opted for a different cam grind, but I have 3700 lbs to move out, so the extra grunt will help.

Sorry for the long post, long frustrating morning, afternoon, evening, night.

2oldFbody

IHI if you didn't use your QF stuff what was done to the carb you used?

Sorry to here about your bad luck on the dyno. The only positive thing
from that is at least you didn't have to pull the engine form the car twice.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Only thing he did was drill jets....buddy of his had his big jets at the track....he did say once in awhile he drills out the emulsion holes but most of the time swapping jets works just fine. A/F numbers looked fine idling and making pulls so I'll have to wait and see what happens street driving, if I have a stumble off idle, I'll just put some bigger PV in there to bring in more gas sooner.

Just got it fired up in the car last night, and yeah, that wold've been baad having to do this in car replacing/finding problems.

2oldFbody

Thanks for the info, keep us updated on your progress.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Well, got to make some time in the car again doing some street driving this afternoon after I bolted the exhasut back up....sure sucks cuz man that sounded good open headered LOL!!

Fuel system I have to install a bigger return line, I had it all done and then when I recieved the A1000 pump and A1000 reg, the reg said to run a -10 inlet line (I was covered there) and a -8 return....I only had a -6. I called and talked to Aeromotive and he said I "maay" squeeze by, but said what would happen is the regulator will platuea and not allow it to cut psi enough since it's taking in more than it can give back at idle/low rpm....at idle I cant get it below 18psi...I'm thinking guage may be goofy too since it's not bleeding out the vents/squirters like it's done with past pumps I could'nt get turned down due to bad regulator. I may try to run my old reg in series for now and see how that works out since psi is still getting returned to the tank via first reg, so the only thing dead heading is maybe 12" of line total...we'll see.

Have to fine tune tranny shifter cable, it does'nt feel as solid as it used to when clicking into gear, reverse I have to rev it a bit to catch and go into reverse, and when I apply the trans brake and give it gas, it bumps forward an inch or so before setting....so hoping cable is just a touch out of adjustiment and will fix it all.

Too hard to tell about new motor...sounds good, streetablity is a bit nastier than what I'm used to...it stays cool, but just cackles too much for my taste at typical low rpm driving...blame that on the larger cam than I used to have. Hard to tell about pwr too, just a tire fry'er...more so than my last engine, but I installed a 8" race convertor this time so there is no way to compare apples to apples...ya stand on it, it goes immediately to the shift light, bang the next gear and split second later (literally) it's on the shift light, same pulling 3rd gear....just a constant shift light in my face blazing my slicks. I got it to dead pretty good on the hwy off the tbrake and it snaps the frnt end up quicker and holds it at full extention until I let off, so I guess it is a bit better than the last one, still going to wait to see what the track tells me next weekend. Think I'll just go out on Sat., enter trophey class so I can T&T on a race prepped track vs paying the same money for a fri T&T and a crap track...still thinking I'm gonna run out of rpm if it runs like it should so I'll be leaving ET on the table.

E85 is hard to start (much like pure methonal) and it takes awhile for it to warm up before it'll idle all by itself....I have 110 gallons to burn through so we'll see what I can figure out, but at least I can easily convert to race gas and not leave much performance on the table.

I have my sheet in front of me:
565 ft/tq @ 4900
608 hp @ 6200

it's above 500ftlbs from 4400rpm-6300rpm so it has a nice big fat tq curve which should help my even heavier car get done the track. I'm sure it's start even sooner than 4400, but that is where we started taking recordable data from but at 4400 it was already at 552ftlbs

Was hoping driving the car would make all the wrench time seem worthwhile, but I'm tired, beyond stressed since this thing fought the whole way...taking tomorrow off from it and spend time with the family and take a mental breather and hopefully get some perspective back LOL!!

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Just the info I transposed from Quick Fuel's instruction sheet for thier conversion kit along with Quick Fuel part numbers to make the conversion, typed it up in another post, so figured I'd better post it here with guys looking for any information possible:

Here is the instruction per QF's E85 conversion kit..kind long so I'll nutshell it for the important stuff which may or may not be relevant to anything you have done to date or will do:

Metering blocks come with .043 idle feed restrictions

Four emulsion bleeds in the serpentine slot are pre calibrated, these pre-calibrated emulsion bleeds as as follows from top to bottom .028, blank, .028, blank. This emulsion pattern is a performacnce proven combination and works for most applications where carb size is correct for engine


The pwr valve channel restrictions are sized to .076". These holes are immediately behind the PV 1" hex head The purpose of these restrictions is to add supplemental fuel to the main well during WOT operation or when engine load drops the manifold vacuum below the calibrated value of power valve

CAUTION: Do not make drastic emulsion size changes as you can significantly alter the air/fuel ratio and could cause engine damage. It is highly recommended that when experimenting with emulsion calibration you consult one of the many books available on carburator modification and use one or more devices that monitors A/F ratio throughout the operating rpm range.

Special note: E*% fuel requires 25-30% more fuel than gasoline. This requires increasing the flow in all areas of the carburator. We recommend you use larger needle and seat (at least 130") and a needle material stainless steel versus viton. Your main jets should be 8-10 jet numbers higher than your original gasoline calibration. The final jet number could be larger if there are upstream restrictions such as booster thru hole is smaller than optimum. A 10 jet number increase is usally a safe starting point then jet for best performance from that basline.

END QUOTES


HERE are the parts from Quick Fuel and the P/N's for reference that I ordered for the conversion kit

Again, all Quick Fuel part numbers:

Qty: Part number
(1)- 34-106 Metering block conversion kit (2 metering blocks/whistle vents/gaskets...and gasket are a bit different than the standard 4150 HP gaskets)

(2)- 5-12 Pump disharge nozzle screw, hollow stainless steel

(2)- 35-13 GFLT 30cc Accelerator pump diaphram

(2)- 18-11 .150 alcohol S/S needle and seat

(2)- 21-35 Accelerator pump nozzle

I did order QF 2.5 high flow power valves as well, but I dont have the P/N on those.

Hope some of that helps, but I think the biggest thing is getting a sniffer of some sort to help figure this out since it all seems to be a crap shoot tuning on the track for a S/S car.

2oldFbody

IHI thanks for posting the info. Was there any thing you had to do to the main body ( drilling or air bleed changes).

IHI

iTrader: (1)

The only thing we did was drilling jets and adding PV's, that is it. No drilling to metering blocks, no air bleed changes. During WOT pulls the A/F ratio was spot on in the end, sitting on the dyno idling the numbers were within range, a bit fat, but that's fine because realistically the car is morphing more and more into a track car, especially with this latest addition up front. I will street drive it, but it's not as docile as the last engine so we tuned it for WOT passes more so than off idle/part throttle crusing, and like I mentioned, we were under a serious time crunch so that blew all my inital plans right out the window for testing out this E85 conversion stuff which may in fact be the magic bullet for a much better all around performer than one would expect on gas.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Keep in mind this is a commercial product, not a "spec" fuel. It is designed primarily for vehicles that adjust themselves for the percentage of ethanol in the tank. The pump I got my last cans full from had a sticker on it that said "Minimum 70% Ethanol" - given the way gasoline prices and ethanol availability have fluctuated lately, don't count on the industry supplying a mixture that is always exactly 85% ethanol.

2oldFbody

Here is a web sight with some info if any one is interested.
http://e85forum.com/forum-1.html&sid...02ecbd81e4009c

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Interesting.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm a little confused about what "blank" means. At least with the Proform billets, they are pre-drilled at .028. Do they block them off, or are they full open, or what?


According to QF's website (which now seems to be working) catalog, the restrictors are available from .028-.041, and .043-.073 in odd sizes only. Of course, they're talking specifically idle feed and emulsion, but they look like the same thing as the PV restrictor to me.

I've tried calling QF, busy one time and answering machine the next. Hopefully they'll call back.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A little update on my recent tuning: I had leaned up the primary jets with the billet metering blocks and larger PV restrictors, even more than I would have thought from just those changes (90 to 81), and the secondaries a little, too (96 to 94), so I was wondering if I had over-done it on the squirters. I was using .031" with gasoline, went up to .037" tube style with E85, and was having a few off-idle issues (still - that's nothing new). So, I tried some .035" squirters, just the standard style not the tube type, and it seemed to drive okay. However, at the track when I went to stall up after staging, it would sputter and complain, often resulting in poor reaction times. 60' was off, too, which was confusing since I was flooring it against the rev limiter, so the accelerator pumps shouldn't have been a factor upon launch.

Tonight, I got fed up with the sputtering after my last time trial, but had left the .037's at home. My wife had gone home during time trials, so I had her bring them back out - and, of course, in the meantime, they called my class. She got to the track as I was rolling down the staging lanes; I switched them out as the cars in front of me moved toward the track, got the lid back on before anybody behind me got too upset. Boy, did that make a difference! Went right up to 2-step after staging, and I got .05 sec back on my 60'. Started easier, idled better (not sure I completely understand that). Also between time trials and eliminations, the head wind died down and the air got cooler; I dialed quicker to compensate, my opponent red-lit, so I got a free run and it took .16 sec more off the ET than I dialed down! Just like old times again.

It still doesn't idle perfectly, but it's running better now than it has for a long time. I'm going out again tomorrow to see if I can do any more damage.

2oldFbody

Some thing I have read some where is when you use the squirter's with the
tubes , the tubes hang out far enough in the air stream that fuel siphons
out and richens the mixture. Just a thought on why it runs better with them.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Hey IHI, what was your final jetting set at for WOT power? Mine seems to like 72-74's (primary) for light throttle cruising without loading up on E85 with the billet blocks, but I have not been anywhere where I can try full throttle. Seems like 74 would be too lean considering it wanted 76 primary/82 secondary with race fuel. Just curious what sizes you ended up with that gave the best power.
Also, did the engine like more timing with the moonshine, or less in relation to power output. This stuff seems to have high anti-detonation properties...On race fuel mine liked around 36-38, but now I can go up to 42-44 which seems scary! What has your experience been with this cenario?

2oldFbody

Does any one have new info or is every one to busy racing?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've been pretty busy generally, and haven't gotten much done.

I was out at the Mile High Nationals this past weekend and talked to the Holley reps there. Their opinion is E85 is too "regional" for them to release a specific carb for it, but suggested I could talk to the Holley tech line for details on how to tune for it. The only Holley things left on my carb are the base plate and fuel bowls, and they didn't know the Proform billet metering blocks had screw-in restrictors - maybe their tech line will be better informed. If I can't get a hold of Quick Fuel (no success to date either by phone or email), then I just may give Holley a try.

2oldFbody

Whats up with quick fuel? You would thing customer service would be better
from a company like that.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

After I called and left another message yesterday, they finally called back today - while I was away from the phone, of course.

So, I called them back on my nickel (no 800-number). They really didn't want to discuss how to tune, just wanted to sell me their E85 metering blocks (same p/n IHI gave above).

So, now I need to decide whether to go ahead and get them (Summit says ship by 8/2), or continue to mess with what I've got. Main problem is still primary idle, which I'm having a hard time convincing myself isn't a throttle body problem. The QF tech person did say the standard Holley throttle body is okay with E85, but they recommend the stainless alcohol part for corrosion reasons. Since I already know the throttle body was poorly machined in the secondary idle area, and it didn't idle well with gasoline either, etc., etc., etc.

Oh, for the want of $736.84. . .

2oldFbody

Five7 what part of the secondary idle was not machined properly?
The passage to the idle mixture screw or discharge port or ?