CamaroRog

you live pretty close to me, the station i know of is called gas city and is located on highway 30 about 10 miles outside valparaiso heading toward merriville. $3.20 a gallon I filled up today and only paid 2.85 your getting ripped off bad if you really paid that.

V6sucker

E-85 is great, but also remeber that is it a hell-of-alot more corrosive than regular gasoline.
So your rubber lines and fuel pumps, both mech, and electric NEED to be compatiable, or you will burn them out quicker.

Dunno if that was touched on, but thought I would add incase it was not.

theboilermaker

The car runs on premium so 3.199 it is. There is a website to find e-85 stations online. There is one in fort wayne and one in lafayette that I have been scouting out. Also, my girflfriends dad is a regional manager for GM and we were talking the other day. He is going to start working with oil companies to increase production of E-85 and get it pumping more here in the mid-west.

As far as the corrosiveness; what do I need to upgrade? cost?

V6sucker

the factory steel lines hold up for years. So far the only thing that has stood up without damage (hard line wise has been S/S.
Since E-85 has come out they have made special rubber lines that you really need to hunt for.
If the lines you get are methanol/alcohol approved, then they will run fine with E-85. That goes the same with fuel pumps. But the rubber line from auto parts stores are not approved for those fuels, so it is a special order thing.

As far as production goes they are putting an E-85 plant like 17 miles (500,000 a barrle a day production) from my house this year with hopes of opening another one (about 1 mil a day) about 5 miles from that one within 3 more. And since this is onthe Illinois border... corn is not a problem.

Mike Tritle

In reality my testing has proven otherwise. I've had parts soaking including neoprene gas line for several months now w/o effect on them. Steel fuel line is fine also. Many are misinformed that Ethanol is as corrosive as methanol. There is, at least according to my physical testing, a world of difference in the two.

Mike Tritle

Not wanting to let you down and with my curiosity piqued, I contacted an industry friend of mine that hangs out on some of the other boards for his input. He supplied me with the attached table which fits what I remember from a few years ago last I looked around for this info. It opens in Word.

V6sucker

I did not say that it would be immediate, but yes E-85 is more corrosive than gasoline.
Otherwise why would the flex fuel vehicles have different fuel pump than non flex fueled ones? and have different rubber lines installed at factory?

Mike Tritle

Warranty liability purposes. Remember, the daily driver for the general public is quite poorly maintained in the majority of cases compared to how we baby our "toys" with which we have a relationship.

Most alcohol racers use a couple of ounces of a top oil to reduce the effects. I add a dribble of Marvel Mystery Oil to each 5 gallons for good measure. However, my soak testing is done with pure 85%.

I checked with Aeromotive regarding the Street/Strip pump and they gave me a thumbs up. The Carter mechanical has shown no signs of failure during spring run in after sitting all winter w/E85 in it.

I guess the alarm that went off for me was the wording "hell-of-alot more corrosive".

I should be out testing within 3 weeks, weather permitting. Will continue to report results.

Mike Tritle

90 jets squared, 85% Ethanol, 70 degrees. Started great and ran like Jack the bear except for stalling at stop signs and red lights. 1/8th turn out with the idle screws solved that problem.

Lesson learned #1: Mr. Gasket says their electric water pump drive kit is not for street use. They are 100% correct. Motor burned out after only 20 miles of off and on cycling. Water temp hovered in the 200 degree range until the motor crapped out and then I did a lot of coasting for the two miles home. Even at 220 degrees there was no hint of detonation.

Installed the stock belt drive and temp never got over 180. On gas it used to overheat in traffic. No sign of that today. Judging by the gas gauge mileage was in the neighborhood of 8-10 mpg which is a bit higher than I expected. It does get a bit smokey in the back when I stomp on it but it outruns the cloud very very well.

More to come!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Mike, could you refresh my memory on the carb you're using? I know it's a Holley, or Holley-style, but I'm interested in why your idle adjustment worked and mine is giving me fits.

Mike Tritle

Carb is a 650 Holley HP. (4 corner idle adjustment) My idle speed is controlled by the holes in the throttle plates and a little input into the secondary idle adjustment. The primary idle screw is just turned enough to stabilize the idle RPM. That keeps the plate/transfer slot relationship within range for a crisp no bog off idel reaction.

I started with screws all out 1.5 turns and went from there.

What kind of fits are you having?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It began with the cam swap. Acts like I have a big vacuum leak, but if I do, it isn't on the outside. Was the same before E85, so I don't think it's an E85 issue.

I have a 650 Holley 4150 DP with Proform mainbody, 2-idle system. In my search for answers I've determined that Proform includes smaller secondary idle bleeds if you're only using 2-idle, but mine didn't appear to include them when I got it in 2003 and has the large bleeds in the secondary idles. If it needs the small air bleeds, that's probably my problem - not enough juice going through the secondary idle system.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

how do you adjust the secondary idle slot on a 750 holley DP? i don't see where on my I can adjust it. i believe it's the 4779 model, but i'm not 100% positive.

Mike Tritle

Secondary idle is adjusted from underneath. Look for a small slotted screw recessed in a hole on the left side of the carb. It is quite touchy and you might have to remove the carb a couple of times to get it right.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

so it would be found under the base of the carb? i see your from dekalb, do you make runs at byron, IL often? I'm up there once a month or so, maybe I'll see that Cuda sometime.

Mike Tritle

Yup, from under the base is where it's accessed.

Not as often as I would like but am planning to test this weekend (Sunday)so, weather permitting, see you there?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

this weekend i hope to fire my car up for the first time with the new motor, weather permitting at least. so I won't be there for this weekend, if you plan on going another time let me know, I'm usually up there with a black chevelle, a beige chevelle with a tiger tail hanging out of the hood, and a grand national. I'll check out under the carb though and get that sorted out. Let me know the next time you plan on heading up there and if it fits with my schedule I'd love to see the cuda.

Mike Tritle

10-4!

BTW, the Cuda us the same color as your Camaro...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Mike, haven't seen you around for awhile!

I've been running E85 all season, the carb has to be tweaked in some "special" ways to make up for the extra fuel needed. There's another thread I started talking about the secondary idle bleeds for the Proform main body being the size for 4-corner idle (which I don't have), finally I've got a decent idle with it after putting smaller air bleeds in it.

Only thing I've really noticed is a sticky residue on things - fuel can, float bowls, etc. Making me wonder what I may need to do for storage this winter.

Mike Tritle

Reducing the air bleed size enrichened the mix. W/O 4 corner idle you would have to do that if you have the secondaries open for idle purposes. I have 4c idle so I didn't even consider that. Good call!

Been busy burning corn, breaking parts, ramming steel slivers through my front tire and finally getting a handle on the pro tree to win a round in Open Comp at Rt. 66 only to have the tire take me out of competition! There's the proof that there is always a new way to lose...

Best bet for storage is to pump out all the E85 and run some gas through the system. I use a product called SeaFoam to keep the gas stable during storage. A little ethanol left mixed in will act as a gas dryer to keep the system from rusting due to condensation.

I haven't seen any of the sticky stuff but there is a bit of white residue wherever I spill some after it evaporates. Is that what you're talking about?

BTW, I found E85 to be far more sensitive to weather, especially high density altitude. I'm attributing this to my lack of compression as the air gets thinner. Leaning the mix only works so much since that reduces BTU potential. It is much more forgiving if the engine starts to run a bit on the hot side.

I had to slip in my 3.23 gear after tearing up the 3.55 first round in Morocco. That didn't seem to hurt the et much and didn't affect top speed at all. It likes a loaded engine! Load on engine = cylinder pressure. Good substitute for compression perhaps?

Anybody else have stories?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I haven't seen any white residue. The stickiness is inside closed volumes, so perhaps what I'm seeing is a moistened version of what you're seeing.

I've finally learned to get the engine warm before a run. After spending so much effort keeping the engine cool all these years, it's been a hard habit to break. 175 degrees before the burn-out seems to work best.

Sounds like I need to drain things and put in some petrol after the season is over. I use the AMSOIL gasoline stabilizer for long-term storage.

Sensitivity to DA changes hasn't been any greater for me than I used to see with gasoline. 1500' variation between first TT and last round of elimination is pretty common here. It's probably jetted better for the lower DA than the higher, but I'll take it a little rich vs. stumbling from being lean.

I don't have an accurate count of runs, but I'm sure it's well over 100. Plus driving to and from the track every race. The plugs have just a slight tint to them around ground electrode, the ceramic is clean.

There is one racer at Bandimere that managed an E85 sponsorship. I haven't had a chance to talk to him (he races Saturday, I primarily race Friday), but I understand he started with an alcohol-calibrated carb and tuned from there.

(Like a dummy, I let my Drag News subscription expire. Did you do a 3rd Moonshine article?)

Mike Tritle

No third article as yet. However "drippings continue from the 'still" so stay tuned and get that subscription renewed!

z28man355

What about pure ethanol. what is the octane rating and rejetting procedure if you use just straight ethanol. I found a website that claims you can produce 97-98% pure ethanol from corn sugarbeets and even grass and kitchen scraps. the stills are available through them as well as the yeast and other materials. they also have a link for the atf permit form so that you are all legal. seems like it could be a good deal. google e-85 producing machines and youll find it. see if there is something i'm missing that will kill the deal

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Done. The next thing I did after posting that.

Mike Tritle

The IRL is jumping through hoops to be able to run the pure stuff. Remember, ethalol is moonshine so you will need to have that ATF permit handy and don't get caught DUI!

The ethanol plants denature the product with 2%-3% unleaded gasoline to eliminate the security risks in transporting fuel ethanol from their location. Even Granny Clampett wouldn't recommend the denatured stuff for "medicinal purposes!" It will kill you dead real quick.

The technology is advancing by leaps and bounds so it doesn't surprize me that commercial stills are becoming available.

Wonder what Jr. Johnson has been up to that past couple of years?

Thanks, Five7, Todd and Laurie appreciate your support!

Mike Tritle

Base upsize for jetting for the pure stuff is 163% Stoich ratio is 9-1 and the octane rating is 108.

theboilermaker

would it be possible to get pure ethanol from a co-op?

Mike Tritle

Not unless you know somebody. Regs are way too tough.

Unless you're running a blown alcohol F/C or something I see little advantage actually. The engine starts so much easier, especially cold, with that bit of gas in it. I know someone running 16-1 compression on denatured (2%-3%) w/o detonation problems and little if any performance loss. Unless your cylinder pressures are in his neighborhood I would just go for 85%. Much easier to get and lot's less hassle.

70 bird

Thanks! lots of good info. Im starting to see E-85 more in the Detroit area.
Got me thinkin 12-1 455 lol.

jleable

the thread was really long so i didn't read it but, e-85 requires your carb be 30% richer and you have to have fuel lines and tank that can handle the ethanol

Mike Tritle

Better go back to my articles that are posted above. Your numbers are off a bit and no special lines or tank are required. Been running for a year now with steel lines and the original gas tank in my Cuda along with the Carter mechanical fuel pump boosted by an Aeromotive Street Strip electric and a Ramco filter/water seperator.

I know it's long but worth the read.

NXSLT1

I have a question, I've got a 96 Trans Am and am contemplating running an E85 mix in it. I understand it needs a richer AFR than gasoline and on my date logging software BLM's of 128 are suppose to be stoich for gas, so with E85 should I still try to keep the BLM's at 128 or does that need to be a lower number too? I guess what I'm asking is since the O2 sensors measure oxygen content in the exhaust stream and a higher BLM number means there's more oxygen in the exhaust than it should be, does the O2 levels need to be the same for E85 as it is for gas, that way I can just keep the BLM's at 128 for E85 too? Make sense?

Mike Tritle

Ok, I'm comfortable with my manhood and always open to learning something... What's a BLM?

Based on an assumption that it is a unit of ratio, and that it indicates a measure of an abundance or lack of oxygen, I would say you're on the right track.

However, ethanol contains an oxygen atom in each molecule so I would tend to go a tad rich with your fuel map rather than take a chance on a lean drivability condition. Since the ethanol burns cleaner, all you'll get is a bit more potential power due to the increased BTU potential in the richer mix.

NXSLT1

BLM is block learn memory, this is what the ecm learns and stores in memory over time about the fuel mixture from the readings it gets from the O2 sensors. Too rich and the number drops, too lean and the number rises. A BLM of 128 is stoich for gasoline but I don't have a clue if I need to try to keep it at 128 for the E85 or keep the BLM at a lower number (richer) because the E85 has a richer stoich AFR than gasoline. So I'm wondering if the BLM's need to be "adjusted" to stay richer than it would for gasoline, just like the AFR has to be adjusted richer for E85. Get what I'm saying? I know what I'm thinking I just don't know how to say it. lol I think I'm complicating it too much but I just don't wanna burn the pistons plum out of the thing.

What I've got is a stock LT1 with a roots supercharger on it with too much compression for boost but from reading this thread it seems ethanol likes high compression so if I get it figured out it should run like a scalded dog.

AJB-283

I know that it has been a while sinse this thread was posted on, but I was wandering if there is anymore information on converting to E-85? From what I see putting it in simple terms, bigger jets in the primarys and secondarys, how about the power valve?

Mike Tritle

I addresed that in the article in post#15. There are a couple of options. Check it out.

Mike Tritle

It is actually in post 16.

I copied and pasted here for you:

When jet area was initially calculated, the power valve circuit was not factored into the final formula. It goes to say that initial testing produced less than stellar ET and Speed results, though the spark plugs were clean enough to use as dinner utensils. Gradually increasing jet size decreased ET with speed results mirrored. Back to back runs confirmed the need for higher engine temps as each time, regardless of mixture; the second run was quicker and/or faster than the previous. Reasoning for this can be seen in the Fig. 1 (Jan. 1 issue) comparison of Latent Heat of Vaporization. Using the 10 size jet increase rule of thumb for power valve elimination, and then factoring in 15% Gasoline to the mix, a jet size of 86 to 88 was indicated.

7.0 camaro

i run a 1050 dominator. with stock 92 in the front and back and no power valves. i guess i need to do the math and go get some alky jets. correct

Mike Tritle

Yes, that's correct.

7.0 camaro

sounds like alot of trouble. if was that worried about it i shouldn't be racing huh. or go to full alky.

Mike Tritle

No more trouble than gas. Just different numbers.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's definately nice on hot days when you're going rounds and expected to hotlap. Worth every bit of the "trouble" then.

2oldFbody

I have had e-85 in the back of my mind since I read about it a number
of years ago. I just read this whole thread(I'm tired now)it is very interesting
about the gas lines and all the rubber stuff not corroding. I'm guessing
the aluminum lines I have would. What about fuel cell foam in an older fuel
cell. (1993) Have you had any troubles with oil contamination or ring wear.
I have seen oil out of an engine on the dyno with methanol and it looks really bad, I know its a different animal but does it happen with e-85.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm running aluminum fuel line. I don't know of any problems.

I just pulled the pan to fix a leak (from a cam change - going on-piece pan gasket this time), no problems with the oil.

Ethanol doesn't have the nasty properties of methanol. The 15% gasoline helps a lot with the problems ethanol has.

2oldFbody

Five7kid did you use any special alcohol parts in your carb (gaskets,needle & seat, accelerator pumps, etc.) or just gas stuff.
It would be fun to try E-85 in A high com. motor for the street. How did your winter storage go any problems this spring spring. Thanks 2oldFbody

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

They've been building carbs and pumps with ethanol-compatible parts for about 20 years. Nothing but "standard" parts.

I haven't finished my winter work yet, so I can't report on how things were over the winter. The last time the car was started was in mid-November.

Mike Tritle

I don't have a cell so I can't answer that one. You could nip a piece of foam and soak test it to get results.

I still have all the parts from the article plus a piece of raw aluminum soaking in the same jar. No residue on the bottom and no aparent deterioration.

Also the car ran only E85 last year and I used same storage routine as I did with gas for over the winter. This includes draining the fuel tank and carb and dribbling a little Seafoam through the bowl vents and into the gas tank. I pumped 3 gallons of E85 (probabaly E70 winter blend) into the tank, ran the electric fuel pump to fill the bowls and she fired right up. A little smokey until the fog oil in the manifold and cylinders burned out but just fine after that. Come May 1 with the street insurance going into effect we'll take it out for a spin. Looks like year two of post E85 storage is a success!

2oldFbody

Thanks for the up date Mike. Does any one know what the max comp.
and or cranking pressure is with E-85.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Boy, i found this thread just in time!! EXCELLENT reading Mike and thanks for taking time to post all this info. I've already commited to running E85 in my new engine being built as we speak. 427sbc 13.5:1 compression but I ordered the brodix cnc 227 heads with the 68cc chambers trying to knock it down to 12.8 or so :1 before thinking about running this "new" fuel. The past 2 days have been an intense search of reading, posting questions, and multiple phone conversations with 3 prominate carb companies and theire experiences and 2 machine shops that have been building roundy round spec motors running E85 for the past couple years and have real world dyno experience-as well as the carb companies, in what it takes to run this alternative fuel.

So much inof I've gotten the past couple days, it's a blur-literally LOL!! but with the rise in race gas $5-6/gallon locally I would be spending $175/wk based on the average fuel I used to burn with street driving and racing every weekend...that was just too much, hence looking outside the box. I have a station locally, and there are 3 station in MN near where I am dynoing my new motor that have been selling this stuff for years...current price $2.25/gallon...that's more like it

From what the guys from ADP carbs, Quick Fuel (these guys sell E85 specific carbuerators), and AED (also selling E85 specific carbs) have told me, they basically build the carb like an alky carb. The have their own special metering blocks with passages sized between the gas and the alky-just like verything you've read the E85 is "in the middle of the road" as far as quantity needed is concerned, then use stainless needle/seat with different accelerator pumps/diphrams eliminating anything that "could be eaten" even though everybody I've talked to actually USING this stuff has all posted results similar to Vadar, Mike, and 5Kid-no issues of parts getting eaten.

All 3 carb companies kept bringing up the 20hp increase over race gas when they switched fuels...BUT, this is with compression motors. My freind in MN had his 347 sbf dynoed at the shop I'm going to, 10:1 motor, hyd roller-very mild set-up, that made a best of 526hp on 92 octane....they switched it over and retuned for E85 and they lost 22hp...dyno operator/shop owner told him it's because of lack of compression. When I talked to Zach at Quick Fuel (they are working directly with Ohio Crankshaft and have been for some time now) trying to master this new fuel and make killer combinations/hp using affordable gas. They recently dynoed a guy from Texas 434 sbc and made 800hp on E85 at only 30* timing, then hit the fogger and it produced 1100hp with the timing pulled back to 18* and said the motor was'nt even being pushed yet and EGT's were only hovering around 1100* on those N2O pulls

They also siad they've run the E85 in engines upto 16:1 compression with zero signs of preignition or internal problems even though typical octane ratings are 104-112. The one thing the carb shops and engine shops ALL agreed on was the consistency of the fuel. Since the EPA does'nt mandate certain rules, literally each batch of E85 produced can and often is different then the last-lots of room for error. I was cautioned that if I was making the switch, buy my fuel in bulk so it lessens the chance of imporperly running engine due to carb calibrations being off the mark with a different batch of fuel. I already have 2-55 gallon drums I'm filling up when I head to the dyno so i have some one hand for my dyno session and when I get home; hopefully that will last awhile, but at $2.25/gallon...who cares..almost makes me wanna go burn it up just because it's soo cheap LOL!!

Either way, I wanted to post what I've found and wanted to stay in the loop so to speak in this thread. We're hoping engine is done and ready for pulls by the end of the month and guys on another board, and I'm sure many here too will be interested in my results. I have the day reserved and will be performing A-B testing optimizing everything for pulls on race gas and then pulls on E85 and i will post results after we have them on paper.

The only thing I can truely say is there is ALOT, and I mean ALOT of misconception about this fuel...too many guys hearing/reading something 3rd and 4th hand with no first hand experience and then the stories get twisted up and before you know it, wives tales begin and are taken as gossple. I'm looking forward to moving on this endevour and posting anything I find to help others see the light with first hand knowledge as opposed to hear say and bunk info.

Josh

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

so josh, building a 355 motor or a 383 what compression could I build it for to utilize E85 which is everywhere around here? Also, I'm guessing my proform carb would be fine for this, just would have to play with the jetting and possibly the adjustable idle circuit?