Chrome

Hey guys, as we all know Winter is coming and it's time to put the cars in the garage. What would you all's recomendations be on the following:

355
GM Forged Crank
4340 Forged I Rods
SRP Forged Pistons (10.5:1)
Edelbrock ETEC200 heads
Camshaft: XE284
Hooker Longtubes
700R4
3600 Stall
3:73 gears (may put in 4:10's not sure)

I have two questions

1) With this setup would you guys go with the RPM Air Gap, or the Super Victor for vortec heads. I'm almost at a loss here. Some ppl say hands down Victor, some say hands down RPM Air Gap. The car is going to be used for 75% Street/25% Track - No daily driving. Any suggestions?

2) Using Holleys chart with a 3600 Stall and 350 they say to use a 850DP. I honestly think this is too big, but maybe it's not??? I was going to bolt on a 750DP. But I have to purchase either one nonetheless so I want to try to hit it right on the first shot. Any suggestions?

Thanks guys!

pre

The stall you have is over kill for a street car and so will going with the Super Victor which according to the ad likes 4000 RPM - 8000 RPM range.

The RPM Air Gap range is 1500-6500 RPM with 9.5:1 compression.

Your cams operating range is 2300-6500 RPM and a 2800 RPM+ stall.

Personally I would get a lower stall, the Air Gap intake, and the 750DP. Don't get the 4:10 gears. I hope you did something to that transmission.

Chrome

From my experience the higher stalls are advantageous when using a mechanical secondaries carb with an automatic transmission?! Is this not true???

Yea, I know the tranny is going to be a weak link - ... If it last a week, or a year we'll see. I have a 100k mi one out of my wrecked 91 camaro that I'll send off to have rebuilt when the original one starts to go. I'm more concerned about the rearend!

I've also been considering the XE294. This car doesn't have to be super streetable (tame). It's not going to be a daily driver, only pulling it out to mess around and have fun, and to bracket race. If the Super Victor will completely kill the streetability factor then by all means I'll get the Air Gap. I just wondered if there's anyone out there who can attest to this manifold properly matched up and if you can drive it on the street with ok mannerisms.

Edit: The bottom end can handle all abuse I want to give it (splayed caps, balanced, etc...)

f355bird

iTrader: (2)

i vote air gap for the street super victor for the track

Chrome

Would the XE294 cam be too much for the RPM Air Gap??? This is the most cam I would go with this engine and if the Air Gap would work good with it - then I'll go that route. If not - then I might want to look into the Super Victor. Probably a 150 shot down the road too...

spartyon

did you look at the weiand intakes? or are you one of those edelbrock only guys?

jocww

my neighbor same grade as me use to drive his 70 truck with a vji it was just to hischool and back but he drove it daily all through jr yr and some of senior. so the vji can be streetable

Stekman

The composition has very little to do with the top end. Because, in the end, it doesn't really matter if you end up over camming. This may be a good example of KISS, although the last "S" may be dropped off as I do not want to go calling names. For any engine, doesn't matter what size, shape, or color. The heads make the power. The cam merely accentuates the heads. Tossing a larger cam in because you think it will make more power is a mistake. If it were my engine, I would rather under cam slightly and rely on high-quality cylinder heads. Sure, the parts may look pretty on paper. Now consider the impact they have on the performance. Static versus dynamic compression, rear gears, and HEAD FLOW are all determining factors. Pick a cam by those, not by looking at the figures and thinking they look good.

If you are looking at cams like the 294, screw the hydraulic anytings and go solid roller. That gets my un-honest, but yet truthful opinion. If you want my vote, it goes to a smaller cam (over camming an engine is one of the larger mistakes people can make, and IMO, you're over-camming) and get the RPM. You can keep the stall, possibly.

E-tecs say they make power to 6500. That's where I would draw the line. There come's a time when a cylinder head can no longer flow sufficient air to feed an engine at higher RPM's. Considering the E-tec head, I wouldn't push it.

Consider this: I have a solid roller cam designed for 3200-7500. I plan on AFR 210's to feed my engine. I don't think I could bring myself to trust edelbrock to feed my engine at anything above 6.5k.

ETEC flow data:

.100: 67/57
.200: 122/110
.300: 175/153
.400: 223/182
.500: 252/196
.600: 259/204

I'd say those numbers look good for about a 6.5k motor, as Edel suggests. They don't have enough top end flow to supply hi-rpm engines.

But if you're still stuck on the 294, go with the super vic. Also get a vacuum canister. Also, I would change out the edelcrap valve springs to something more suiting like the Comp 987 springs and all the affiliated hardware.

I may not have used a single plane intake like the super vic, but I have driven a seriously overc-cammed engine slightly hotter, not much though) with Pro Topline 200's. I could feel the engine choking at anything above about 6.75k, cutting the cam's effective powerband short. Also, the cams grind required something a bit more radical as far as compression is concerned. The cam likes higher compression so that when the valve timing is factored in, you don't lose cylinder press, which in turn makes the engine un-streetable. That cam looks to me like a high-10s, low 11's to 1 ratio. Then comes the rear gears. because the cam is so weak on the bottom end, cams like that are usually associated with rear gears like 4.10, 4.11. So while the intake may or may not be streetable, and the cam itself may or may not, its the side-effects that the cam has on the engine and the driveline that makes the cam not the best choice with etecs.

Ball's in your court now. What you do with it is up to you.

Oh, and yes, I would use an 850 cfm carb.

chev496

1. Vic. Jr would would great, possibly a 4 hole carb spacer to increase the carb signal. Very well daily drivin.

2. Umm, do you have the extra cash for a 750 mighty demon? or perhaps a speed demon carb instead? That would be more than enough for your engine, but if your going to go holley dp, then go with a 750, more than plenty for an 350 engine.

And also, are you set on the edelbrock heads and that cam? I would further tune your engine combination and pick the right cam and heads and a good compression ratio for what you want.

F-BIRD'88

The super vic (vortec) is really a high rpm race intake.
it is best suited to a much more radical motor and car then you have planed. On your motor the RPM will probabily make more power even at the top end.

This dyno chart comparing stock and ported vortec head with both the rpm and super vic manifold shows ya what I'm talking about. the rpm make more average power and gives up nothing to the vic manifold on this motor.

You can read the whole article

here

I would stick with a 750cfm based carb size. You can enhance a 750cfm carb to flow way over 850cfm with venturii and throttleblade and airhorn mods and keep the hi velocity of the smaller carb.

Better throttle response, wider power band.

pre

Very nice to see a side by side comparsion like that.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'd keep the 3600 stall. Meets the "2800+" requirement, more gets you off the line better, and that much more won't significantly affect top end.

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

I have both of these intakes. Both have been ported to match the E-Tec 200 port size since it's a LOT bigger than the ports that come on the intakes(iron vortec port size)...

Comparing port sizes:

Vortec 1.08 X 2.05?
E-tec 1.35 X 2.30?

Port is as big or bigger than a 1206 Felpro gasket.

It sounds like you have a nice combo. For the folks saying it's overkill, they probably have no experience with what you're doing. I run a 4200 Vigilante Lock-up converter with 3.73's. 11.5:1 is the plan with a huge roller cam and a Super Vic intake and big cubes. Regions seem to vary but around here that's considered more than streetable.

I vote Super Vic Vortec with the proper runner porting and port matching. A friends 6 speed car with a 383, 11:0, .600+ lift 245 duration, 850 carb runs a Vic jr and it's smooth sailing in my opinion. From idling down sidestreets to 80mph in 6th on the highway.

With a 3600 stall also, the bottom end torque associated with an Air Gap RPM will be useless.

Carb size will change with intake selection. A dual plane will want the 850dp...Call up Pro Systems and see if they can help you out. They're a big help with my setup knowing that it will be street driven. They want a satisfied customer and aren't worried about losing a few HP to get you a streetable setup.

If you choose Air Gap RPM Vortec, PM me and you can buy mine with the $200 in port work it already has.

Goodluck!

SnkSknrZ28

iTrader: (2)

383, AFR 210cc heads full CNC'd, 10.75:1 compression
Victor Jr. intake, Canton 2inch 4 hole spacer, Mighty Demon 750 carb. With a 850cfm u will make 15 more HP up top but you will gain much better throttle response and torque with a 750..

My Motor made 545hp on pump gas NA, and 825hp on a 250 shot. Daily Driver 8inch, 4200 stall, strange 12 bolt, 4:10s..

Our cars are heavy, they NEED torque to get them rolling', the victor jr plus a 4 hole spacer is what you need, much better low end then a super Vic.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Go with the Vic Jr. with 4 hole spacer, coming from a old combo similair to what youre doing you wont sacrifice any low end grunt with the rest of your combo, and the motor will like being able to breath in the higher rpm band with the vic jr. opposed to the dual plane.

For your carb and the intended purpose, the 750 will be ideal. Throttle response will be better and it's going to flow more than what your VE% will probable be. I've been in the dyno room when we did the 383 in the truck and swappign from the 750HP they had on it to a 850 HP we lost 20hp on top and it totally screwed the torque curve-instead of being broad and flat it made it very peaky and short.

For guys calling out 3600 is too high a stall for a street car, obviously have no idea what they're talking about. To many varibles taken into consideration for a stall to make that comment.

I wish I would've known all this stuff was'nt streetable, would've saved me alot of coin in fuel driving around town, plus I could've done somthing more constructive like read BS on here from guys that dont know what the heck they're talking about!!

Also if there's anyway to bump up your static compression to about 11.0:1 with thinner head gaskets, would be worth your while to capitalize on your cam, otherwise a step down might be the better choice.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'll admit I only stall around 3500, with no lock-up, and drive it to/from the track and occasional other street duty. Just fine. Perhaps that extra 100 RPMs makes more difference than I thought...

IHI

iTrader: (1)

When I had my TH350 with 3500 stall it actually flashed to 3600, I can assure everybody that extra 100 rpm does'nt mean squat

Even with my 9" 4600stall in this TH400 offers identical street manners as the old 3500stall in my TH350, and the 2800stall I had in my 700r4. I've taken alot of buddies for rides, weather crusing or running errands and the guys with car back grounds cant believe how docile this thing is to drive/ride around with. Exhaust is loud, but you'll have that with the 40 series flowmaster that's why I had to soup up the audio dept. to drown out that motor!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You know, I believe I misread what you originally said. Too many distractions, I guess.

I was always worried about "too much stall for the street", and therefore settled for too little. It takes a little getting used to at first, but after that you just love it.

SnkSknrZ28

iTrader: (2)

i agree with IHI on the converter talk.. However it does depend on who does your converter, like i said i am running an 8" 4200 stall on the street, probly 90% street, 10% track.. All i can say is the thing RiPs.. Howver like i said b4, depends on who makes the converter, i've heard of some bad experiences and my buddy is one example, his converter was only a 10" 3200 stall and it sucked! He ended up selling the car a couple months later cuz he coulds stand it haha..

Competition Transmission in New York x 10.. Ask for Carl, he's the man! http://www.competitiontransmission.com/
He does them for alot of professional racers too, good prices..

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I agree, manufactuers have a great deal to do with convertor performance. I have seen more than one car in our group of racers pick up quicker ET or mph by just a convertor swap, same "advertised flash rpm" but internally the slippage was the factor that ultimately determined the pick up, and alot of times lower tranny temps.

Very partial to BTE convertors since alot of our guys run them and I'm freinds with the local distributor, even though I'm running a TCI unit that was left over from the truck. Whilke I cant say with 100% certainty that the Jegster convertor was actually producced by TCI I have a sneaky suspicion it is, and even that 3500 stall I ran was a proven performer with consistent track times, but more importantly mph which is a great determining factor in the convertors over all performance. Alot of guys also run ATI convertors here with the same great results.

Art Carr built 2 for some friends of ours and even after they got it back from tweaking it still did not perform correctly. They went some other manufacturer from arizona and the car really came around once they installed it, cant remember the name of the company, but it was not a main stream unit.

It's very hard to part with the $400-1000 for a convertor but they are just as important as the previlant parts one thinks of when building a motor, rear end, etc...

Chrome

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the info. Although my plans have changed slightly.

I have on order.

1) Cola 3.75" Stroke crank
2) Eagle H-Beam Rods
3) SRP Pistons (same = no change)

So now that I'm working with a 383 I have to decided if I want to go with the Super Victor and ETEC200 heads. Or go with AFR195's and Victor Jr.

I know the AFR has been done to death thats why I'm favoring the ETEC - But the Super Victor manifold might be to much for what I have... Not sure what to do........................................................ Blah Why is there so many choices!!!!!

Chrome

Although I do have time to figure it out. THat rotating assembly has set me back money wise till after the 1st of the year. Still have a baby to feed!!! hehe

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Of course, we understand. You're feeding your baby a 383 with Eagle rods, Etec heads...

Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap Vortec, #7516.

You might want to reduce the stall a little so you can regain some traction.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Holy cow, I'd say your plans changed a great deal..for the better Just because alot of guys are running AFR's, dont try to be different and miss out on the performance these heads have to offer over the E-Tec's. You've now got a stout shortblock, take your time and finish buying the right parts to compliment the base you've started with. Just dont take a hit in the hp becasue everybody else is running "those" heads.

Regardless, traction is going to be at a premium from the sounds of it...but that's not a bad thing-unless you bracket race Thinking about goin back to a 355 myself for just that stated reason. Cheaper to build another motor than to tub mine.

SnkSknrZ28

iTrader: (2)

Done to Death? i look at it that if alot of guyz are using AFR heads, posting up awesome dyno numbers and ETs at teh track, and u hardly see the Etec heads, well that can only mean one thing.. AFR are superior I am a bit biased but you really cant go wrong with AFR heads, power is in the cylinder heads so dont miss out!! good luck.. BAH 355! Stroker 4 LiFe Yo!!

Chrome

I'm not totally familiar with the AFRs qualitty of valvetrain, but thats something I can search on.

I'll probably go with the AFR's, but I'll have to decide on 210 or 195.

Definetly going to go with the Vic Jr. I would like to put a 1" 4-Hole spacer underneath the carb (looking at 750HP), but I'm not totally sure that setup will sit underneath my SS Hood. It might. Just have to get the engine in and put the carb on and see how much room I have to play with.

I do have some questions about retaining the 700R4, but thats better left up to the transmission board. Basically want to keep AUTO, Keep OD, but not blow the transmission when I have a pair of Stickies on.

I'll try to post pics and updates as time and money allow. I'm already getting antsy because my car has been sitting with the 305 out for a month now. Miss driving it!!!

Although, my wife doesn't feel safe with me taking our child in the car when I go out - wonder why!!!! hehe

Stekman

You can always change out the valve springs. In fact, it would probably be advised to match the springs to the cam (I know that is always my suggestion).

If it were me, I would look into getting some bare castings with the valves, guides, and seals installed. And match your springs, retainers, locks, and spring locators/cups (if needed).

Chickenman35

Now here's a nice spacer


Some pretty decent manifolds as well...

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/

IHI

iTrader: (1)

We're running the same spacer on the S-10. I kid you not, when we went from 1" open speacer to the 2" Wilson 4 hole taper-20hp gain. Might just be a dyno trick, since the 3 guys in the room doing the pulls and changes said "put G.o.d on it" Literally just like they said 20hp is the norm for gains, price was $165, but that's pretty cheap hp so wtf