z28onTweenkies

ok, ive got two rockford 6x9's, two rockford 4x6's and a twelve in a q-logic box. the box is a series one and its a regular hatch box, and let me tell you, laid on its side there is maybe a few inches between it and the glass. anyways, i have a generic amp (legacy) pushin the 12 (bridged) and the two 6x9's. it sounds nice, but the deck is pushing the 4x6's and they are so quiet. i have a rockford 400a4 in my room waiting to get installed, to power my four regular speakers and im looking to get a mono sub amp. my question is, which kind of amp should i go with? i'd like to find a mono amp that matches my rockford, but id go with anythin that has enough power (brand name though). i'm not sure with what sub i will be going with the one i have now is a koiler 12" (i know haha it sux). does anyone have any mono amps they will sell me, or steer me in the right direction, thanks

------------------
1987 LG4 Camaro z28

Performance
KN airfilter, flowmaster 80 series and catco high flow converter, 180* thermostat, edelbrock performer intake

System
Panasonic CQ-DF200U deck, fosgate speakers (hpc1369, frc2246), fosgate 400a4 amp

DFIance

Dude Stay rockford I have always had them for speaker/amp setups and they have been great!!!!!
Also always had pioneer for head unit setup, excellent there too!!!

KlayBuRn

go with the bd series of rockford...

CODY BEHNKE

Keep in mind Kicker doesn't underate there amps.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Like hell they don't!!!

My ZR600 benched at close to 30% more than it's rated. I've seen ZR240s put out 550 watts! That's 100% more than it's rated for, and it can do it all day long.

I'll put my Kicker amps against any comparable rockford.



------------------

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<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
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"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

Polecat

I totally agree with Jim, we really underrate our amps, some by 100 watts sometimes.

KlayBuRn

I never really caught on to the exact point of underrating, other than comitition wise...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

There's a couple advantages. One is of course the competition thing. Orion started the "cheater amp" phenominon, and once one person does it...

Secondly, there's the issue of quality control. The output of amps is not a cut and dry thing. Pull 20 amps off the assembly line and test them, and you'll get 20 different output levels. Since they're selling you a 1000 watt amp, they need to make sure that ALL of their amps put out at least that much. Not 50%, not 90%. Most companies shoot for around a 3 sigma standard deviation during design, with the low end of that standard deviation being 1000 watts. Incase you don't know what that means, basically they need to design the amps so that 99.99% of them exceed their rated power. Because of the variation in production, that means that the average output may be 1100 or 1200 watts in order for the weakest of the group to still exceed 1000 watts. With the vast majority of the amps being "overbuilt" that's less amps that won't pass the testing phase. Getting 99.99% of your amps out the door instead of just 95% saves money.

Thirdly, people like to get "more than they paid for". People like getting a 1000 watt amp that puts out 1200. They feel special, like they got some sort of factory freak or something. It doesn't matter that everybody else gets it because they don't think about that.

------------------

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<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
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"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

Polecat

Dang Jim, very well said!

OldOneEye

Damn Jim. Some corrections. (damn stats class.... working on a project literally as I am browsing this).

If Kicker has a 3 sigma standard deviations standard, that means that at least 90 percent of the amps are going to be plus or minus 3 standard deviations (which in generic terms tells you how spread out the numbers are... smaller the better).

So to ensure you get at least 1000 watts, you want to make standard deviation smaller and you want to be sure that the low point (minus three standard deviations) is at least 1000 watts, if not more. You don't want to average 1000 watts, because that means half your customers will be pissed for not getting what they paid for (1000 watts).

With computerized production and things like that, you can easily set it where no amp leaves the door with less than 1000 watts, or even 1100 watts if you desire.

On the overrated thing, is the Impulse line overrated as well?

Juan

Polecat

Juan,
No, they put out a tad over what is rated, but not as much as the ZR,DX and XS amps.

I talked to our Amplifier Production Manager and he said if we say an amp is 'rated' at 1000 watts. If the amp doesn't do a minimum of 1050, we don't pass it. Some as high as 1100 off a rated 1000 watt amp. But if it's to high, they still pull it off the burn-in borad and double check it internally. But I have seen some DX700's come off with 823 watts. But we still have like a 50 watt off 'rated' or we will not pass the amplifier.

OldOneEye

Hell, If we are on a stats kick, what's the average and the standard deviation for a ZR1000 for example? That would be interesting to see.

Juan

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just to clarify my 3-sigma comment, that was more or less for illustrative purposes. No calculators were harmed in the making of this post.

------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

i'll take my kickers too, i wish i could find the birth certificates. i think my Zr360 put out close to 480 watts and my Zx420 put out well over 500. Its a FACT that kicker underates their amps, i've yet to blow one up, yet to shut one off, i've had em for over 2 yrs now, in the hatch of my GTA with the box over em, even in the heat of summer they still kept on going...

------------------
Check out MyGTA Nicknamed:The Big Red Machine
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Moderator at www.transamgta.com
"What does not kill us only makes us stronger"

Tony

TrueBlue91RS

I've been reading this thread, and it's been interesting. Out of curiousity, what happens to the less-than-one percentile of amps that do not make the minimum power requirements? Are they gutted and put through the assembly line again, are they thrown away, or are these the amps that pop up on ebay and sold as "refurbished"? Polecat, you may be in the best position to answer this, but if anyone knows...

AudioDEO

well i wouldnt use either you can get a more powerful amp from better companies ie US amps, Eclipse, for the same price or cheaper as the kicker or rockford and youll get a way cleaner sound and a ton more power...

I sell rockford, Eclipse , US amps, Treo , kenwood, Sony , pioneer, Jvc , Soundstream, and a butload of others but i would stay with some better amps ie US, or Eclipse pay for the good stuff and thats what youll get..

if you need some priced and stuff give me an email and ill take care of you....

Ohh yea i just droped kicker... because of their amps....

CrazyHawaiian

www.ubid.com has some mean deals

------------------
--- Current Daily Driver ---
Maroon 1989 Camaro RS - Crappy 305 TBI / Auto
Hypertech Stage 2 Chip (and 160/ThermoStat), 2.5" Pipes,
No Cat, Flowmasters (Dual), GT Grant Wheel, 5% Tint all around,
50% on windshield, GTO Blackouts, Fixing rust and painting soon


--- Next Project ---
90-92 Camaro IROC-Z/Z28 - 5.7ltr L98 / Auto
K1 Interior, Suspension (1" drop, new everything), Sounds
(Mp3 Deck, Boston High's, Soundstream amps, JL audio Subs)
Billet Wheels (18x8 front, 18x9.5 rear) Boyd Coddington's,
6 speed swap, LT1 swap, engine internals, turbocharge, SCCA!!!!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I've never once found a dealer that dropped Kicker because of their amps. I've got no experience with US Amps, but I've got enough with eclipse amps to raise the flag.


I'd like to see a birth certificate from a $300 Eclipse amp that can push 550 RMS watts into 4 ohms bridged. I've seen ZR240s do it.



------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

Polecat

And the name of your store would be.........I can find out the whole story. Haven't used since '99....


[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited October 22, 2001).]

CODY BEHNKE

The high end kicker amps are under rated by 25% most of the times but the standard series are NOT !!!!!

AudioDEO

the name of the store is Soundwaves and the reason I droped them is because Kicker demands that if you sell x amount of their subs you have to sell x amount of the amps. i will not sell my customers inferior product just because a company that sells good subs and over priced amps tells me to.
I have morals. why am i going to sell you an amp because of its name when i can sell you an amp $100.00 cheaper that will sound better and give you just as much power.
Weve been in busness 25 years and you dont stay in buisness that long from ripping people off.
by the way i used to compete with kicker and a ton of other brands but im a sell out when someone better comes along i use them. you guys can keep useing kicker as long as you like but at world finals when im getting the trophies dont be upset. weve gotten best sound q scores at world finals 2 years running and i promise you it wasnt kicker amps im not saying their bad thier not...... thier just over priced... if you can get 30 0r 40 % off of them then thier a real good deal but if not thier are better to be had.

Polecat

How did you do in SQ? We took World Championships in several areas, as well as set new World Records in SPL in IASCA last weekend.So if it's inferior, it must have been someone else who installed it. But people like Mark Eldridge who took fourth in Expert, Gary Biggs, World Champion with the biggest score of the whole weekend, Rob Rice,World Champion,Team Divine Sounds, new SPL record in Street,Steve Tyler,new SPL record,etc,etc.

The old saying, you get what you pay for, and when you are in it for trophies, do you buy cheaper stuff hoping it does the trick?

Never said it was the best, you made a comment that you dropped the line because of the amps, but they fair really well on the market. And most of the now World Champion cars are using them, because winning to them is a "no price bar".

But I hope you did as well with lines you carry now.And I am serious, I do wish you well.

[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited October 23, 2001).]

OldOneEye

Polecat,

I'll jump in. The shop I worked at dropped Eclipse for the same reason. They demanded we buy x% of CD players that skipped and x%amps that sucked (Eclipse product managers dropped the ball. They have an amp that does 500 x 2 into 2 ohms that cannot be bridged, a 4 channel you can not run high pass for seperates and low pass for a sub. Head units that claim 4 volt but the subwoofer voltage is only 2.5 volts). The speakers were great drop in replacement speakers (which they sell Rainbow and Diamond now instead), the subs had huge box requirements.

How is selling people a quality product ripping them off? Selling them Eclipse head units is ripping them off if you ask me. I don't know how many times I had to ship off a in dash 6 disc changer because it jammed up again and needed repair.

Either way. Sounds like you dropped them because you couldn't sell your customers on better quality and not because they are a rip off (people pay $2300 for a DVD with a flipout monitor head unit, so price and quality are two different things)

Juan

------------------
1987 Pontiac Trans Am
1994 Nissan Sentra E
1999 Daewoo Leganza

AudioDEO

mark and them have really good vehicels and while they may score better all around we did have the highest sq scores ie staging accuracy but yea those vehicels kick our *** in install and other areas. but over all spl vehicals their are not that many that win first at world finals at this years world finals you guys had one vehical in first witch is really great but thats only a small % of all the classes some other companys had a lot higher %. Kicker is not bad product ill be the first to admit that but you do have to admit that at retail prices you could get amps and speakers that may do more output or more sq for the money. but you also have to admit that kicker is really nice by letting you recone woofers and such. other manufacturs because they do not build thier woofers will not allow this and their customer service is very good because when i competed with their product i blew woofers every week and they overnighted me new woofers every week so i could get ready for sunday events. I was also able to order 2 ohm speakers all the time way before kicker ever offerd 2 ohm speakers and i was also able to purchase the first zr100's weeks before any dealer was able to get them.
So if this is the kind of servise you need then by all means buy kicker product but if your just cruzing the streets for fun you can save cash going with someone else....

So no i am not bashing kicker you do get what you pay for.....

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Until I see birth certificates for amps that sell for the same or less than a comparable kicker amp, I'm still raising the flag.



It's not hard to show proof if it exists. Show me an amp that beat a Kicker by an audible margin (i.e. 1dB or more) that sells for the same or less.

------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

OldOneEye

Jim,
I can name a few in fact.

Now, if and when you decide to qualify your statement a bit more (including warranty, made in the US, technical support, etc.) maybe I won't be able to.

Just think, if it weren't for legal issues, I could take a kicker amp, take it to Taiwan, and tell them I want amps built to the same exact spec. Hell, I can even tell them I want them overrated and set a high quality control threshold. In that case, bang for the buck, the amp would cost less and sell for less.

Ditto if I had an American made amplifier, but wasn't paying big bucks for advertising, competition teams, etc. I could go out and make a quality product and cut some of the overhead out.

Audiomobile is doing it with subs right now, maybe someday soon someone might start doing it with amps. A direct to market approach that could slash costs.

Juan

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Maybe someday, but I still don't see it yet.

The Audiomobile subs seem to be some pretty amazing stuff. I haven't heard any in person yet, but I hope to soon.

Anyway, back to the amps. What you're saying makes sense, but I just don't see it actually happening. Virtually all of the offshore amps that I've used have had nowhere near the output capabilities as the high quality american brands. Pioneer, eclipse, alpine, etc. They're all worth the money, but don't have the same level of output that the Kickers, Rockfords, PPIs, etc. all have. Maybe somewhere there's some esoteric japenese amp manufacturer that I've never heard of that's making good amps, but of the mainstream stuff that I've used, no Japanese company has produced an amp that can compete with the big name American stuff.

But, like I said before. Just show me a birth certificate and I'll shut up. I'm not doing this to argue or to be right. If you show me a birth certificate or independant test results of these amps that are cleaner and put out more power for the same amount of money, I'll consider it a learning experience and will stop disputing your claim.

------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

Polecat

Set two new World Records at IASCA last weekend, Krik Mouradian set two World Records in the Advanced 721-1440 class with a 171.3 and Steve Tyler was in the Advanced 360-720 class and beat the old record by 4.5 db's.
http://www.kicker.com/kcsc/mainx.sho...ASCAfinals.htm

Not as much into SPL, but getting there,but we'll take the best we can.

Glad we could be of service to you in the past.
Good luck with your business, and see you around the board.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Jim let me know when u do, i've heard about these subs..

OldOneEye

Jim,
There are quite a few amps that did quite well at finals made offshore. Crossfire, Memphis, DEI and some others.

Kicker is a great quality product, but not everyone can afford that type of quality (the ZR lines anyway). Ditto for Zapco, Arc Audio and a few other brands that are premium, made in the USA brands.

Keep in mind some of the "American" companies amps are about as "American" as those 4th Gen firebirds. Boards made in Mexico and made in the USA. I even heard that the JL audio amps are made in Taiwan. Soundstream, which used to be so proud of its "made in the USA" pedigree is being made offshore as well.

I've got a $1200 Esoteric/Diamond Audio amp that I took apart (it's going in for warranty repair, so I wanted to see what was inside) and I was shocked that it said "assembled in Mexico" on the inside.

At this point, car audio is becoming like the automobile industry. I drive a Sentra made in Tennesse. GM, Ford and Chrysler makes cars in Canada and Mexico from domestic content. Hondas are made in Ohio. Remember that Nissan, Toyota and Honda started out bringing the little cars to the US. The big three didn't worry, since they didn't think they could make "big" cars that Americans wanted. Then the Accords, Camrys, Cressidas and Maximas got bigger and better. Then the excuse was that they couldn't build luxury cars. Then the Q45 and LS400 and Legends came to the US.

Point is that the offshore product is getting better and better. Clarion's stuff for example was designed by Robert Zeff, the guy behind Zapco's success and behind the new Arc Audio stuff. They have the knowhow to do it. It won't be long before there will be products that can keep up with the best out there. The only difference will be support. Guys like Polecat, Manville Smith from JL, Dave Ritter from Zapco are what sets the "US" companies apart. If I ever have any kind of questions, I know that a few brands I can call and talk directly to the guy who is within shouting distance of the assembly line. Hell, Zapco will custom make me amps (something that wouldn't be easy with offshore amps... if I want one long amp with two amps inside, they can do it.... A purple amp to match my eggplant car? They can do it.)

Juan

KlayBuRn

Hondas go 300,000 miles cuz we make them in America

Polecat

But designed to do it by Asians............



[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited October 25, 2001).]

OldOneEye

As an example, last year Ford recalled more cars then it sold. Look at all the rebates on those.

I can't remember that last time you could find a smoking deal on a Honda.

Made by the same people. Its the people behind the assembly line that makes it happen.

For every company like Kicker there is another one that can make products in the US and still manage to **** things up. PPI is just one example of what happens when a good company went bad (three of the top cats were being investigate for falsifying sales numbers so they could get loans to keep the company going).

Juan

AudioDEO

i sincerly hope you dont belive the birth certificats of rockford and kicker amps....

each one is suposed to be checked individually and yet ive hooked up punch power 150's in succsession and had them blow up on the test bench but after you get to the third or forth one it does fine now if every amp was checked then that means it would be impossible for more than one or two amps in a row to have internal shorts much less three you would have never seen that problem because the amp would have done that when it was hooked up...

when i confronted rockford about this at a sales meeting they said they did not know how that was possible and that they would look into it....

the next shipment i got in did the same thing.....

now i dont have such a problem with the amps blowing up. but dont tell me you test every single one and that the certificats are legit. also never trust a manufacture on what is printed only beleive what you see and hear.

i also laughed when we got the birth certificat on a zr 100 that read 1220 watts man that amp could not have produced that much power if lightning would have struck it... now it could have been that amp but it barly pushed two 2 ohm solobaric 15's with 4 batteries and 2 caps. but i have to raise the flag on that birth certificate.

plus the inspector that hand wrote the wattage didnt notice that the amp end cap was cracked in half.... another reason i call bs cause you would have to take the cap off to test the amp but the box was not even scratched so you cant say it was shipping...

ohh well just dont allways belive what you read is all im telling you .....

BUYER BEWARE!!!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

So I suppose the only honest amp manufacturers are the brands you sell? I've heard that before too.

------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

Polecat

I'll bet you your store front we test every single amp? Wanna bet, since you know what our plant does? I call BS now.....I don't think you know anything for sure, and your right, we won't listen to what you have to say. BUYER BEWARE

I can PROVE my statement, can you......Rockford maybe not, we DO.

sorry to all that had to read this, but I'm calling in this one.......we do test every amp, and it get's burned in here in our plant. Each amp is tested and signed off on, and yes, accidents happen with UPS, so damages do occur. I think we all can agree with that.

But I'm willing to place money where my mouth is.......do you? The ones in Alma's Bronco do way more that 1220.

[This message has been edited by Polecat (edited November 06, 2001).]

86bird_28v6_5spd_ramair

i see these on ebay for 200 or less, better specs than any other amp in the price range,

http://www.xplodsony.com/products/?C...&MD=XM-3001SXD

1000W Max Power (1000W x1 @2O )
D-class Amp
Digital Bass and Treble
21-band Digital Equalizer
300W x1 into 4O , 5-200kHz, at 0.04% THD
600W x1 into 2O , 5-200kHz, at 0.01% THD
1000W x1 into 1O , 5-200Hz, at 0.01% THD
Class D Pulse Width Modulation (PWM)
Low Impedance Drive into 1 ohm
Variable 50-200Hz Lo-Pass Filter
40Hz Low Boost (0-10dB)
MOSFET Power Supply and Outputs
Line-level and Speaker Level Inputs
Gold Plated Recessed Connectors









LPF -- (Low Pass Filter) A crossover component that blocks high frequencies allowing only lower frequencies to pass through.
MOSFET Power Supply -- (Metal Oxide Semiconductor-Field Effect Transistor) A component that is capable of handling large amounts of current and has the ability to switch on and off at very high frequencies.


Frequency Response -- 5-300Hz (+0/-3dB)
Harmonic Distortion -- 0.06% or less at 1kHz, 4 ohms
Speaker Impedance -- 1 - 8 ohms
Input level adjustment range -- 0.2 - 6.0 Volts (line level), 0.4 - 12.0 Volts (speaker level)
Power Supply Voltage -- 10.5 - 16 Volts
Current Drain -- At rated output: 40 Amps at 4 ohms, remote input 2.0 mA
----------------


or a MMATS CLASS D AMP

but they are very expensive, a used one went for 400 on ebay.



------------------
http://PCperformance-usa.com/86bird/86bird.html

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

When I went to Xplod training, the Sony rep couldn't even find much good to say about those amps. Good bang for the buck, but if those things actually survive a 1 ohm load for long periods of time, I'll be very surprised. Certainly no kicker or Rockford.

AudioDEO, you must work at the end of a very bumpy road or you're not testing the amps properly. In the 3 years that I sold Kicker, we never had a single amp that was DOA out of the box, and other for the problem with the early ZR 600s lunching their FETs, we never had a single unit returned for warranty work.

When you test on a bench, you're testing a purely resistive load, which is not at all an accurate way to measure an amp. Put a Sony up to a Rockford/Kicker and both make at or above their measured output. BUT, if you use a reactive load that more accurately simulates a loudspeaker, you'll find that the sony's output will be substantially reduced, while the Rockford/Kicker not only will maintain the previous power level, it will probably make MORE power. Cheap amps are designed around watts, good amps are designed around speakers. Driving a reactive load puts considerably more strain on an amp. Knowing this, I can't see how you ever managed to blow up a Kicker/Rockford with a resistive load on a bench test.

------------------

The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah