Thestriped1

i replaced my speakers a few months ago with pioneers all around. I bought TS-A6961R's and TS-G4641R's from best buy with the two year extended warranty but what i cant figure out is being a punk kid who doesnt listen to really any rap music or music with alot of bass i have comlpetely blown one rear speaker and just blew a front yesterday and have another front speaker going on the stock basic radio. I was wondering if anyone can give me an explaination on how these supposedly good speakers can blow from some music with no bass in it on a crappy radio that cant even push the power to run full volume and any bass.

92RS(real slow)

hmm not sure i had the same pioneers, and they were awesome, maybe you had positive and negative crossed i had to pull my stereo to see which wire was + and which one was - thats about all i can think of though

Mikz86TA

iTrader: (4)

As being a 12+yr professional in the 12volt industry, it is a common mis-conception that speakers blow from overpowering. Most often it is just the opposite. By underpowering th speakers and turning up the volume to establish a decent level of most listening, you introduce distortion. Distortion is the problem and it actually causes excessive heat in the voice coil which destroys it. Distortion can aslo occur in the speaker itself by too wide of a frequency range being played for the size. The fronts are a 4x6 which is a useless speaker only good for high frequencies and barely any mid tones. Size determines frequency reproduction. IT may play the full spectrum, but it doesnt do it well and I assure you it doesnt like it. On the 4x6s, you will need a filter. Or commonly referred to as a bass blocker. It is a non-polar capacitor that will take out unwanted frequencies below its given cutoff. In this case look for a filter/bassblocker of around the 200Hz range. As far as power, the stock radio is OK for these. The 6x9s are realistically good for 50Hz range. But unless you intend to crank the bass setting on that deck, you shouldnt worry about any filters on them. But what you do need to worry about is you power. The 6x9s you have start well above the power output range of the stock deck. OEM decks in this era of GMs are typically 10-15W RMS. RMS is the true wattage rating and peak is to be relatively ignored. The speakers will need about 40-50W RMS to be properly powered. IMO you should get an aftermarket deck or a different speaker. It is also a common misconception that the more powerful speaker will sound the best. But this isnt true if you dont power it with its intended range. BTW, if you do get a more powerful deck, you would still be OK with the fronts you have, as long as you get the filters put on. Good luck and smart getting the warranty!!

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Great answer...

Now the basic description of "distortion"...

When the volume is loud and the speakers start making sounds that you don't normally hear in the song, or for that matter, aren't in the song.... that sound (distortion) is your speaker breaking up (the sound and itself)....

As previously mentioned, giving the speakers the right cutoff frequency really helps and the speakers can actually play louder... a 4x6 playing full range (isn't really meant to play bass), add a crossover to it and it will play mids and highs much louder than the one not crossed over... and it will last longer...

It's amazing how many people crank their stereo and don't hear distortion...

Raf

RocsRose86

He is so right u can do more harm with less power than more power! Next when u replace ur speakers put a nice 400x4 amp on them and it will sound much crisper, but dont buy no shitty amp . Buy a Alpine 4 channel or kicker just not sony or pioneer!

Jtufts

i stuck bass blockers on my , now my ears bleed =\ , they go up all the way and dont skip a beat which i could never do

Thestriped1

thanks for the help! Im not too knowledgable about stereos so i just figured if my speakers can handle more than my deck puts out then im fine and i cant blow them but i did notice some distortion and some interference when i stepped on the gas, so should i also get a noise suppressor like these http://www.etronics.com/listproducts...atid=336&store=?

As for the deck i was planning on getting this HU http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?...re=&catid=5795 Will that be fine or should i just get an mp3 deck instead?

For a crossover can you recommend anything specific or just anything that will stop sounds under 200mhz cuz noticed this http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?...ore=&catid=320 and im getting the bose kick panels so im adding in two more speakers.

should i put a small amp on each speaker like chevrolet does with their bose system or go for one decent size amp to power the whole system? Im a little nervous about the amp thing though cuz my friend wrecked his four type s subs on his 1500rms kicker amp

dirtye30

You cant "underpower" a speaker. I was involved in an argument on a forum months back about underpowering subs. Same goes for full range drivers. On with the show

You know, an amplifier/headunit (same thing in this instance) outputs AC. Alternating Current. When the current is beyond the limits of the PCB, then the tops of the frequency waves are "clipped off", or it's a clipped waveform. This is distortion.
When the over current is so severe that You're effectivly outputing Direct current, You end up clipping off nearly the entire transitional portion of the wave form. Ending up with "square wave".

Square wave will pop a coil in a matter of moments, enclosure dependant.
Clipped wave will also pop a coil, but not nearly as fast.
The reason that overcurrent pops coils is this: The fact that the coil will "hang" excurted for 1/8 cycle or so, causes it to lose some cooling effect. In a passband of 30-120 cycles, losing an 1/8 cycle on EVERY wave will cause ALOT of overheating if done continuously. Consequently the coil binding -or- glue, overheats and breaksdown. At this point any coil wire can break loose of the former. When this happens, the wire shorts against the ferrite, causing a DC short into the motor. No more jammin.

What YOU are referencing is a mechanical failure. Not electrical. Mechanical failures only happen when a driver is poorly designed -or- the enclosure is poorly designed.
What is a poorly designed driver? One that has more Xmag then Xsus.
You do know those two terms, right?
Xmag is a reference for the "Power" or BL of the motor.
Xsus is a reference to the abilities of the suspension (primarily the spiders, but also to include the surround & tinsel leads)
The commonly overabused TS parameter of Xmax is derived from these specs. More importantly, most beter motors are rated for Xmax where the BL falls below 70% (iirc). Or, the lesser of the two (xsus & xmag)

Now, in the case of a severly limited suspensoin, or greatly overpowered motor - You will easily reach mechanical limits in any application with with recommended power.
Or, in the case of a poorly designed or built enclosure, You will hit mechanical limits of a suspension quite easily. If You're running an Adire Brahma 12" in a 2.0ft 4th order ported with a resonance of 80hz... but feeding it 35hz @ 800wrms (actual wrms with a clamp & ammeter), then the suspension is going to unload and the "bottomless" driver will bottom out with enough abuse. The coil former can either flat out "bottom" on the backplate of the motor. OR the SPIDER can reach it's physical (mechanical) limits. At these limits, the spider cannot maintain linear control. Therefore it (it IS the main centering force) cannot keep the coil centered on the pole piece. The whole soft assembly will rock and short the coil against the pole piece or ferrite, causing coil rub, and eventually a short (coil to ferrite).
But these kinds of failures are mainly due to ignorance. A decent (or better) enclosure can be made for $40 - $80, but if no one takes the least bit of time to make sure that the dampening & tuning is right, then they are wasting alot of driver capability. In other words, they would REALLY have to **** it up to reach xsus under anything less the Mecca / dBDrag usage.

In anycase, underpowering a driver WILL NOT break it.

If you still dont get that, think about this: If Underpowering a driver is bad for it, what happens EVERYTIME you turn the volume down from the Gain Pot set point?

Answer: The coil gets less current & voltage. EVERYTIME. Boy, better never turn that volume **** down.

Feel free to hit me up, I have a feeling that I could learn You a few things.

TheBandit

if your total rms is going to be 200.. get a 300 watt amp.. it gives the amp enough room in case you do crank it.. just be easy on the gain

Mikz86TA

iTrader: (4)

Yes....underpowering a driver will not break it. However if you have a little amount of power and are trying to acheive a high volume, having a driver with a motor stucture designed to handle a large amount of power will require you to turn up the volume level of the deck/amp to get the desired level of sound. Doing so causes audible and inaudible distortion. Also by using a small diameter driver to play a full spectrum of frequencies will also cause distortion. The voice coil will fail as did in this case. You will never get a 4x6 to accurately and loudly play a 20Hz note....ever. If you put a test disc in and played the 20Hz sine wave, the 4x6 will have audible sound emittiong from it. But these cycles will not sound good due to the lack of cone mass needed to reproduce the note accurately and the cycles will excessively heat up the v.coil causing fatigue and eventually failure. TheStriped1: The Pyle deck is not a very...lets say quality...brand. I would get a regular MP3 deck if thats your $ range. The crossover you have posted is for use on an amplified system. And most amps nowdays have crossovers built in. Sometimes external crossovers can cause more noise issues. I would get a nice deck like a Pioneer,Alpine or Kenwood. JVCs actually have good track records but Sonys usually have tuner issues. Get one that has 3 RCA preouts. This will give you the ultimate future flexibility if you decide to add amps later or a sub. One like this usually has the induvidual crossovers built in if using with amps, and will save you $ later on. Also for now, weather you get a deck or not, have a filter/bassblocker put in on the front 4x6s. If you had BestBuy install them, get them replaced by them under warranty and request them add the filters. They are $10-20 depending on the area prices at that retailer and they should install them for no charge since you are having them replaced anyway. If you are doing it yourself, pick them up when you swap the speakers out. They are sold at BestBuy under the InstallEdge brand by RockfordF. The ones you need are IECCAP133. They have blue-colored leads and a white housing. They are a 300Hz cutoff on a 4-ohm speaker at a gradual 6db/octave rate. Which means there are still going to be frequencies lower than 300Hz pass, but at a gradual lower level as the freq. drops. This will cut out the unwanted frequencies and make the 4x6s last way longer. The 6x9s are alright full range right now. Especially to the music you seem to listen to. If you are insyalling them yourself, they are easy to do. They simply go 'in-line' on the speakers positive lead. Good luck and if you need any futher assistance, I will gladly give you free professional experienced help. TTYL, Michel

Thestriped1

wow thanks for all the help guys. Im gunna go to bestbuy and pick up new speakers next week cuz i dont have time this weekend and illbe out of town. Ill pick up those bassblockers and i wont install the speaker until i get a new deck. ill just put the stock set back in because these are shot i cant even take the sounds coming out of them right now. I have a friend who installs stereos and on the weekends go all over the country setting up stereo equiptment for a dj company. he knows what hes doing so ill have him help me re-wire the car and add the bassblockersto the new speakers. i think he still has an extra amp that hes not using and he only buys quality stuff so ill buy that off of him and install all of it with him in one shot with in a few weeks.

i was reading another thread and started wondering even tho im not doing a capacitor or any subs should i upgrade my wires dealing with battery and altenator? i figured while im buying wire should i get some 4awg for that?

RocsRose86

go all out and do 0 gauge!!

ApexAnalog

Mikz86TA vbmenu_register("postmenu_3327419", true); knows his ****. You CAN damage a speaker by underpowering it. Its not the same as when you turn the volume down because when you do that you are turning down a clean signal. When you connect a speaker to amplifier that doesn't meet the speaker's power requirements, you are amplifying too much to get volume, and you are sending a very loud and also very distorted signal to the speaker.

Here is a summary: Overpower your speakers, but don't turn them up all the way. This way they will sound nice and clean...and if you feel you need to turn them up all the way...well, then I think you're already well on your way to hearing damage.

Iroc_man

dirtye30, what website did u copy that off of? lol, so your saying you cant underpower speakers? ........by the way i was part of that underpowering subs dispute.

apex your exactly right, you CAN damage a sub/speaker by underpowering them, anyone who knows common sense knows this.


one more thing, thestriped01, go with some kicker speakers, the good ones, actually sound very well, and wont blow out that easily, trust me.

NEEDAZ

You can not damage a speaker with to little power, if this was true you damage the speaker any time you you turn the volume down. When you use to small an amp and over drive it, you giving the speaker to much power, not to little. Any cooling effect of the move coil is minimal. It has more to do with the clipped signal seeing the load as a non-reactive load. As a non-reactive load the impedance drops to the DCR of the speaker. This drives the current up.
If you real would like to see this affect this get your hands a dual channel oscilloscope. Use one channel to see the voltage into the load. Then take a 1 ohm or even better a 0.1 ohm resistor in series with the load. By measuring the voltage drop across the resistor you are seeing the current. Then drive the amp into clipping and see what happens to the current waveform. This is also nice to see the current to voltage phase shift you get with a reactive load and how this phase shift changes with with frequency. Near the resonant frequency this get interesting.

Iroc_man

actually no, for example, if you have a 100 watt amp and a 600 watt sub, and you have the amp maxed out, it clips, therefore ruins the sub, thats still UNDERPOWERING the sub, not "giving it to much power", therefore your underpowering the sub and burning the voice coil/coils out. all you are doing is maxing out the amp(its working to hard). your not giving the sub to much power. come on guys, i thought we have established this already.


thats why i said dirtye30 was right, because he was, he said the same thing i did.

Mikz86TA

iTrader: (4)

I think Needaz didnt read a few of the explanations thouroughly. Just let yourself buy the 1000W sub and run it off your stock deck. Be sure to turn it up all the way so you can hear it play and see how long it last. I really dont care. What I do care about is educating a fellow enthusiest who hasnt had experience in the audio area. So that he can enjoy the fruits of his/her labor without worries and bad advice.

NEEDAZ

What ever happened to the people that know this stuff around here? I didn't miss anything in the explanations, I've been read the same things posted over and over again for years. The heat that damages the coil comes from any electrical energy not use to change the magnetic field/move the motor ***'y. The heat is power being dissipated. If you're 'not giving it enough power' it's not going to over heat. Cooling time (not really the best term) really only boils down to average power. So to much power being lost for to long is just to much average power, or to much heat until the coil is damaged. 'To little power' is just the wrong way to say to small an amp. And to small an amp DOESN'T mean it can't put out enough power to damage the speaker. Take a smallish amp with rail voltages of +/-50V (any average off the shelf generic 150-200W amp). Say this amp is swinging a nice clean sign wave that is just coming to the rails at 70Hz. No current flow at this point so no power. You take you're 4ohm sub in it's box and wire that up. Now we know this isn't +/-50V into a 4ohm, the speaker is a reactive load, so that 4 ohm speaker is, say, a 40ohm load (the 40 may be a little high, but wouldn't be unheard of at 70Hz and makes the math clear, I'm not going to run all the math to see what those speakers in what enclose would have a what ever load). So you're amp is putting all the power out it can, it's swinging right back and forth to the rails but (to keep the math clear) it's doing it perfectly clean and at only one frequency. The limiting factor here is the rail voltage, so it maxed out. But it's only able to deliver 62.5W? (Thermal power doesn't differentiate positive and negative voltage, just that there is potential and current flow. So (50V/40ohms) is 1.25A x 50V = 62.5W, simplified) And almost all of that power (wattage is power is wattage) is being use to move the speaker so you have vary little power being lost and vary little coil heat. The 200W amp/200W speaker could run all day like this and the amp is putting all it can out. Add in more frequencys, particularly lower ones where the reactive load would be lower=more current and the power put goes up, but is still well under the thermal limits of the coil and as long at you don't go past the rail voltage it's a clean output. Now take that same 200W amp over drive the h... out of it with that same clean 70Hz input signal and the output starts to look like a square wave. It's either sitting on one rail or the other. So 50V of potential being dumped into, not a 40ohm load now, as the magnetic field stops changing the reactance of the load drops to almost it's DCR, but the magnetic field does a 180(literally flops 180*), so you get a little reactance in there, but then it just sits there 180* out of it's original fase. So now you're load looks more like 8ohms (could be 8, could be something lower or higher, but 8 keeps the math clear). So you if the amps power supply can keep up you take 50V rails into a 8ohm load the amp is trying to deliver 312.5W, and because the speaker is flopping and sitting and flopping and sitting (not really sitting, but...) a lot of that power is being lost as heat. Your off the shelf amp's power supply can't keep up like, it becomes current limited, so say it drops 10% that still 253.1W and a lot if that lost as heat. It takes a drop of 20% in the rail voltage to get you down to 200W and most of that is lost as heat (probably enough to exceed the thermal limits of the coil even thou the speaker is ratted at 200W). Add the motor strain into the equation and I don't think that sub would last long. Put out the same power cleanly and most of the power would be used to change the magnetic field/move the motor ***'y and you'd be well within the thermal limits of the coil. The numbers are rounded to make the math clear but they're not unresonable. There are also a meread of other little things that come into play, the coil resistance gets a little higher as it heats and so on, but that gets you close. So that 200W amp, over driven, is putting out too much power, see how the THD# can affect output power ratings. That's why you see HU power ratings at 5%THD, they can color the power number, even if only a little at 5%. That's why you can over power a speaker and not damage it, if it's a clean signal and not wasting a lot of that power. But the idea 'to little power' only comes from a lower power rating on the amp, NOT what the amp is really putting out or how much of that is being used to move the speaker vs. just make heat. You can put DC into a sub and not damage it, if you keep the power being lost as heat under the thermal limit if the coil, so putting a volt or two into a speaker for days wouldn't kill it. To little power put doesn't damage the coil, turning the gain up on a 200W amp=to much power being lost as heat and coil damage, not to little power. You can get more then 200W of electrical power, which can then be lost as heat, from a 200W amp.
Anuther way of looking at it. You get heat from electrical energy by disipating power, as far as you speaker goes the only way to generat this heat is by disipaing electrical power. That is how you get the heat in the first place. To little power and you have to little heat, and to get too much heat you have to disipate too much power.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

The term "underpowering" is horribly misleading. Underpowering is overdriving the amp- it's not "so little power that the speakers are damaging themselves" as most people seem to believe.

NEEDAZ

Nice way to put it. Better then just plain inaccurate.

Iroc_man

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are you trying to prove me wrong or something? thats the EXACT same thing i said. i didnt say that giving a speaker to little power makes it damage itself or whatever crap he just said. i said making an amp work to hard CAN damage the speaker. open your eyes, and look at what i wrote before you start throwing accusations of people saying the wrong thing, i said the exact thing you did.

Iroc_man

another thing, look at what you wrote, that comment makes no sense, are you trying to say that the term "underpowering" is not a real term or something? is that what you mean by inaccurate? why dont you explain what you meant, cause i dont get it. do you mean its not a real term? because firebird josh said that "underpowering" is overdriving an amp, so tell me how it was used "inaccurately" when i said it?

you must be trying to sound smart by mixing up a word that sounds smart in with a bunch of plain words, cause it dosen't make you look smart when you use it in a sentence and it makes no sense whatsoever.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

This is the way I always looked at it. Solid state amplifiers have a really harsh, abrupt clipping which is apparently rough on speakers for the reasons already mentioned in the thread.

Iroc_man

NEEDAZ

First, I did 'call any one out' or something. There where a hand full or people that posted more then once that ether 'underpowering' or 'too little power' would damage the speaker. And this isn't quite right. To under powering a load would be delivering too little power to it (P=I*E, so too little I*E), or the load draws so much current the voltage at the load drops belowe what ever point. This voltage drop can be the souces output droping or the accumuleted voltage drop in the electrical system. Ether way the load can't get the total power it needs to work. Some loads don't like to work with not enough power, speakers aren't one of them. This is different then what happens when you overdrive an amp and how it damage the speaker. Think about a power inverter, it takes the 12Vdc and makes 120VAC. This takes a lot of current (10x the current in vs. out + some loss). The lower the input voltage drops, the harder the switching thansistors have the work if it's going to manetain 120V on the output, wich draws more current. This would be under poweringbelowsourcesdroppingaccumulated. So underpowetransistorsmaintainringwhichunder poweringunder powering a load is too little I*E and we know to little I*E will not harm a speaker. Under powering a speaker and buying a under-rated amp are two different things. I know the distinction may not seem important, but trust me, it'll make things down the road make more sense. Things like exactly how limited the stock electrical systems are and were the big problems are (you can do a lot better then just the BIG-3). How important the ground system is, and the effect transients in the chassis ground have on signal quality, why star grounding is so important in the amplifier design, and why bus bars matter but not so much in a valve amp, or why class A-Amplifiers not only exhibit no crossover distortion but the more consistent current draw can simplify the power supply. The deeper you get into car audio/audio/electronics the more important the difference get.
And let me say I started the other post with 'What ever happened to the people that know this stuff around here?' because there where people out there that had an even better understanding then me and could explain it better.

RocsRose86

Cant we all just get along fellas?

But doesnt a speaker not getting enough power result in the speaker distorting,which then the distortion can infact hurt the speaker?

Iroc_man

im sorry, i'll admit, i did get a little out of hand. but i think we are both on the wrong track, when we say underpowering, you mean that if a 500 watt speaker is getting 300 watts, it wont hurt it, which it wont, but i was saying that if like a smaller watt amp is trying to power a huge speaker, it distorts, which can ruin the speaker, thats pretty much the problem.

Thestriped1

Ok so i started this thread cuz i blew three speakers and needed to find out why. and i pretty much got this out of the thread before all this bickering over technicalities.

• 4x6 shouldnt not have "bass" frequencies lower than about 200Hz running to them because the coil is too small and surpasses its thermal threshold intern damaging the speakers.
• 6x9 can have bass but the stock HU doesnt not push nearly enough power and is of very poor quality therein causing distortion to the speakers when at higher volumes.

1. Get "bass blockers" high pass filters or an EQ or corssover so that a certain frequencies are not able to reach the 4x6's.
2. Get a new HU that provides cleaner sound and more power.
3. Run an amp to ALL of the speakers with a slightly higher RMS wattage than all of the speakers need because excess power can be lost but insufficient power will cause distortion and again ruin speakers.
4. Dont turn the gain too high for it will ruin speakers and possibly the amp.
5. eventually run all bass to subs (1 or 2) and only run approximately 80Hz and higher to the rear speakers and 200Hz and higher to front speakers.

Also underpowering doesnt cause damage directly but leads to distortion which in turn causes damage to the speakers. If theres anything i forgot or am not correct on please let me know cuz thats what i understood from you guys on this thread.

Iroc_man

i think you pretty much got it.

NEEDAZ

I thought we where getting along ok, just having a good discussion. Heck, my next time through Sangri-la I'll buy Iroc_man a drink (if me buys the next two ). I don't think there was anything personal on ether side.
Thestriped1, you're close enough to start buying stuff. Time for the fun stuff, deciding on just what to buy. Get ready that could be a long post too. And don't take any of this as bickering, we tried to back up what we where saying, so some good info was getting out there. And these post are the good reads for the people that more detail. If you start a post and get what you need out of it, and 10 other people reading get something out of it thats ok. For the people that get into the technicalities it's the 'why' there's a difference between under powering a load and buying a amp that is rated to low and understand those 'whys' that make them the guys that can go out to a car with ground noise, check thinks over and know just how to solve it vs. just moving grounds around until you find a quiet spot. Ether why will get rid of the noise.

Iroc_man

i'll take that offer needaz, and i just want to appologize for the **** poor attitude i was showing.