quisterio

Well, now that I have your attention, here goes,

I have already upgraded my 6x9's and 4x6's with Sony Xplode Speakers, so far I like them.

My 6x9 speakers give out really good mid-bass, what I did was line the foam enclosures in duct tape, including over the holes, making them "Sealed Off" somewhat from the outside of the car, and so far, the sound has been great.

Im trying to get the BEST sound quality out of them, as in,

Tight, punchy bass
Mids and High's that dont blare at you (Cringe)

I UNDERSTAND that im not going to get lows that subs will get, and for that reason, is why im getting two 12" Sony Xplodes, rated at 380W RMS, 1300W Max, (No, nothing massive, just wanting good low end bass)


My question involves the enclosures of the 6x9's, and Putting an amp to my subs and 6x9's

Since my enclosures are somewhat "Sealed Off" from the rest of the car, will I be alright to leave the enclosures empty, but lined/sealed with duct tape?
Im thinking this will give the speaker a "Set" amount of air to work with, instead of a ""Free Air" application, so far, the sound has been wonderful.

OR

Should I stuff as much polyfill as I can behind each 6x9 to successfully take
away all air space behind the speaker? What effects will this have on my sound quality?

Which one is better for the 2 things I listed above?


The 2nd part of my question is how big of an amp do I need to be able to power my two subs and my two 6x9 speakers?

The 6x9's are rated at 80 RMS each, and the subs are 380 RMS each,

I want one amp that will power ALL 4 of these speakers.

As I mentioned above, im going for sound quality in this setup, This is why im trying to improve what's already there, this is my first system, and will be my last, i finally have a car that I can take pride in, and im not going to half a$$ anything on it.

Thanks for your time.

Gummie

Here's my response. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to be mean or harsh or anything - I'm just trying to provide you with information.

There are two problems with this. First, tight punchy bass doesn't happen with either of these speakers (you concede the need for subs later so I will address this later when you start talking about them). Second, mids and highs are generally not going to be that great out coming out of your speakers for three reasons.

First – the sound coming out of your 4x6ss is going to be bouncing off the windshield to get to you. This means you’re listening horribly off axis. If you have computer speakers try turning them so that they’re facing 90 degrees away from you and you will see what problems this poses. If you don’t have computer speakers go to your stereo and aim your speakers 90 degrees away. Being this far off axis almost guarantees that you will not have nicely defined highs.

Second – have you ever measured distances from speaker to speaker? It’s horrible. The driver’s side 6x9 is the closet speaker to the driver (something like 18” if I remember) and vice versa for the passenger. The passenger’s side 4x6 is over 4 feet away. This makes for a horrible soundstage. You didn’t mention what kind of deck you own. If you have time alignment this problem is addressable but it’s still not an ideal solution.

Third – I can see wanting to maintain stock speaker locations for the factory/stealth look but there are much better speakers you can buy as compared to sony 4x6s/6x9s. You mention wanting to do your system right so I will address this later as well.

Understanding that 4x6s/6x9s (or any other car specific speaker size like 5.5”, 6.5”, etc) won’t be able to play low with authority is a significant step in car audio (some people still vehemently claim otherwise). Subs are a necessary evil unless you plan on installing extremely high excursion small diameter speakers that can make up for lack of cone area with increased stroke. You’re also going to have to install quite a few of them.

You mention not wanting a massive subwoofer and yet you’re installing two 12s. You might be better suited stepping down a size (10” or even 8”) and buying a better speaker (ie not sony). A RE Audio/Elemental Designs/Sound Splinter/Dayton/etc 8” will easily be able to match (and probably exceed) the two 12” sonys in terms of output and they will do so much more accurately. This means a few things. You will need a smaller amp to drive the speaker, which will save you money. You will still have loud bass, but you will have accurate loud bass. It will sound good while playing loud. You can amaze all your friends at what your little speaker(s) can do.

Why would you want to amp the 6x9s and not the 4x6s? This will obliterate your soundstage even worse than what would be like if everything had equal power. 99% of your music will be coming from behind you out of speakers that are horribly spaced and aimed. Either amp the 4x6s, 6x9s, and subs or just drive the four main speakers off the deck and amp the subs separately.

Sealing off the foam thing to create an enclosure is a good idea. Duct tape is a somewhat ghetto solution but it’s easy to fix that. Pull the tape out and soak the foam in some resin. This will make it extremely sturdy and 100% airtight. You only need polyfill if you need to make the enclosure larger than it really is (read on).

The idea behind adding polyfill to a box is to make a speaker think the box is bigger than it actually is by slowing down the sound waves inside the box. You’re not supposed to jam it full of the stuff; you’re supposed to lightly pack it. Adding too much polyfill would create the opposite effect of when it’s done correctly – make the speaker think it’s in a smaller enclosure.

I vote for coating the foam stuff in resin and then adding a small amount of polyfill to the enclosure. You should at least resin the foam – it will be a lot better (sturdier, air tight, permanent) than your duck tape job. You can always add/subtract polyfill as needed to make it sound better.

You really only need 50 watts or so to each of your main speakers and about 800 watts for your subs if you actually believe the sony rating system. An honest 380 watts to each of those subs would be interesting to see.

Sticking with what I said before, you should either amp all of your speakers (4x6s, 6x9s, and subs) or just your subs. Amping your 6x9s and subs is not a good idea.

You can do this three ways. 1 - buy a five channel amp with a decent sub channel. This will probably be your cheapest option. 2 – buy two amps, one four channel for the main speakers and one amp for the subs. 3 – buy a two channel or monoblock amp and run it to the subs while running the main speakers off the deck.

You really only need an amp that can deliver 50 watts to each of the main speakers. Even though this probably matches the number on your deck it’s actually going to be a lot more power than your deck could ever hope to provide. It’s also going to be a lot cleaner power. Your sound quality should increase significantly simply by amping the speakers separately. You should be more than covered with 600 watts for your subs.

If you’re trying to go for absolute sound quality in your setup then you wouldn’t be trying to improve what’s already there. Face it – you’re building a budget system and want it to sound good. I completely respect that but at the same time you do generally get what you pay for. IMO you would have been better off stepping up to polk/infinity plate 4x6s at the least up front, better 6x9s, and then continue to steer away from the sony subs and possible sony amp.

No offence, but not half *** anything and duck tape enclosures? You can take pride in the idea behind the duck tape but you should use something like resin to really seal the enclosures.

Again, not trying to sound harsh or anything. Just don’t expect the world from what you have. Try heading over to your local car audio shop (tweeter, etc – not best buy or circuit city) and listen to some of their stuff. You might be surprised.

P.S. - I like the paint on the car btw

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I have a differing viewpoint with respect to the 6x9 enclosures.

I wouldn't seal them off. 6x9s are designed to function in free air applications, and closing off that back piece will force them into a tiny enclosure, which will kill any real bass, and will make the upper bass & lower midrange honk. You can experiment with polyfill or carpet padding in the backside of the enclosures and may find minimal improvements by doing so.

If you're really looking for better sound, it's time to examine the architecture of your system instead of continuing to tweak what you have.

Stealthy-One

If you really want good sound quality I would look around for a set of kickpanel pods and put in a good set of 5.5 comps or 6.5 comps. I dont like 6 X 9's and I cant stand having small plates firing into the windshield.

Call me crazy but I only run front speakers. I dont run rear fill. think about a concert. is there much of rear fill? or is most of the sound coming from infront of you?

Gummie

I completely understand your point of view Jim, but if he likes the sound of the quasi-sealed enclosure why not seal it off completely? If he doesn't like it he can have (for free) my factory foamy things, which haven't seen use for about a year.

Sticking along the theme of modifying what you have, a decent EQ will probably help. It will help you be able to tone down the harsh highs and fill out the low end to an extent.

I only run front speakers as well and agree that this is the way to go if you’re a fanatic. However, there are various problems with the setup (cost, kicking the kick pods, losing the dead petal, etc) that don’t make it appealing to everyone. Jim’s kicks probably cost as much as a pair of sony 4x6s and another pair of sony 6x9s. Then you’ve got to buy speakers to go in the kicks and if you’re really doing it ‘right’ you should also buy an amp to drive them.

quisterio

Alright, today I got to thinking, and realized that using the duct tape for the enclosures was too ghetto for my taste,

So,

I went and removed ALL of it, now my 6x9 enclosures arent sealed up anymore, and now have the 2 holes in them now.

When I was removing the duct tape from the Left enclosure, (therefore making it UNsealed) I wanted to see if there was a difference in the sound between the two 6x9's before I took off the tape from the other side,

WELL...

Things I DID Notice

This was with music playing,

The left 6x9 WITHOUT the duct tape was certainly LOUDER then the right 6x9 with the sealed enclosure.

As I looked at the speakers themselves, the left one that was open was thumping ALOT harder then the one on the right, one was barely moving, while the other was shaking like crazy, I could see it!

Yes, the bass is alot more noticable without the duct tape, but also a little bit sloppier, not as tight as before I opened them up.

Im guessing this kinda relates to sealed/ported enclosures for subs?
Will adding Polyfill help with this?

Anyway..... now my question is will blocking up them 2 holes in the enclosure help anything? As I mentioned already, sound quality is my goal, not volume, I just want clean, tight sound, not muddy sound.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

You didn't really experience a sealed/ported comparison. You experienced a re-prioritization of many comprimises.

I think if you try what I suggested in the first post, you may find a good comprimise. It should help "tighten" the bass compared to having no enclosure, but should help you retain some of that extra output. You can experiment with the "openness" of the enclosure as well as the amount of polyfill until you arrive at a suitible sound.

Also, while you're in there, adding some sound deadening material to the metal structure immediately surrounding the 6x9s as well as the area directly behind them will provide a noticable improvement in sound quality.

ResurrectingZ

I also have to agree on those subs, im on my 6th set of xplode subs and they blow WAY lower than they are rated. I killed a 1100watt xplode with maybe a 200watt load. Also their amps are crap also, stay away from them.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Kinda makes me wonder why you're on your 6th set at all. Blowing up the first set might be one thing, but I think after I blew up a 2nd set, I'd just buy something else.

Rydda

as for the 4x6 and the 6x9"s i think your sound problem is mostly in the speakers. yes the design of the car affects how it sounds, but i have a setup in my camaro that basically turns my car into a sound chamber. price in your equipment isnt always everything, but on certian things it is. i have 2 4x6, & 2 6x9 pyle speakers. the 6x9's are 3 way @180w, and i forget the specs on the 4x6's. these speakers are very cheap for what they do. i paid like $17 for the 4x6 and like $32 for the 6x9's. they are in the factory enclosures w/ no mods to them. none of the interior speakers are amped. these speakers have unbelievable highs and mids, and if you really wanted to you can pull some bass out of them. these have got to be the clearest speakers ive ever heard. i have a good pioneer head unit and set my bass to -6, the mids to +4, and my highs to +6, and turned the loudness controller on. i turned my volume all the way up to 50 on the head unit, and it was clear as a bell, no distortion at all. this amazed me because i had never tried to take any other speaker to this volume before because they started to distort. as for the subs, if you want something that puts out good solid bass and is cheap, again i would say go w/ pyle. if you want 12's pyle carrys these subs called Super Blue. un freakin believeable. the 12's are about $50 before tax. if you want somethin smaller they have 8's & 10's too.their amps arent bad either. now i talk this stuff up but i dont have the subs or amp in my car because im a little more serious about what it sounds like, i want all the bass i can get. the nice thing about all this is that when you adjust everything it sounds very nice, and loud in the car, but isnt all that outside. i guess im just sayin that your sound quality largely depends on your speakers. not so much the accustics of the car.

quisterio

Alright, today I ordered a set of 6x9 Baffles, They are flexible foam enclosures that have plenty of air space in them and are actually truly "Sealed", compared to what I had before.

Finally something not half a$$

My next question is this, If the foam baffles wont fit because of the stock enclosures that are already there, will there be any negative effects from removing these so that the baffles fit?

If not, im gonna put something like peel-n-seal on the inner metal of the car where the stock enclosures used to cover up to cut down on vibrations.

Gummie

Anyone watch Top Gear, the UK motor show? I would love to see Jeremy respond to this. You contradict yourself and your info is pretty far off, sorry.

This is absolutely correct.

The design (or the internal volume of a car) will determine what frequency it resonates at, which will dictate cabin gain and how much of a factor it is. Things like speaker location also matter a good deal. I found your sound chamber comment amusing because you followed it by saying:

You also don't run subs so I don't see how you turned anything into a sound chamber unless you're talking about the effect less than $100 worth of entry level electronics had on your car.

This is also true. You do get what you pay for but at the same time you can be paying too much for something. Take JL for example. They make an excellent product but for the $700+ a w7 costs you could buy two speakers that have comparable, if not better output in terms of quality and shier volume.

A few things.

Amping - amping speakers will make them play a good deal clearer and a little lower. Even if you just fed them 25 watts from a nice clean amp you would be able to hear a noticeable difference as compared to running them off a deck, which will also usually put out 25 watts. THD on most decks is horrible (upwards of 5%, sometimes as much as 10%). Just by installing an amp you can achieve some pretty good gains in SQ.

Unbelievable quality - this is 100% subjective. Your speakers might sound great to you (if you’re happy that’s great) but they would probably sound pretty bad to me or anyone else with a critical ear. If you could gather a bunch of people in a room and have them listen to a series of speakers blind (no discrimination based on persona preference) I guarantee that they wouldn't put anything made by pyle in the top 10. I suggest heading over to your local stereo shop (not BB/CC) and listening to some of their good component sets.

First, don’t say ‘I turned my volume up to 50’. The numbers are completely random between decks and there’s no way to compare your 50 to my 20 without actually having the cars next to each other. At about 25 (of 35) in my car the music is insanely loud. The rear view mirror is doing its happy dance and if you put the windows down you can accurately (and loudly) hear everything for a pretty decent distance.

Out of curiosity, what other speakers have you had installed in your car that you've tried this with? Generally speaking, the only reason why a speaker would distort at a higher volume level is if it's being pushed beyond it's maximum excursion, but with the bass attenuated that's not going to happen with the majority of aftermarket speakers (it might with OEMs).

The only thing I agree with here is that plye = cheap. Their amps are way over-rated (ie they won't produce 1/3 of what they're marketed as). Their subs are also probably pretty junky. Pyle, Lightning Audio, Sony, etc all fall into the same pile of cheap stuff. If you want cheap good sounding subs check out Dayton Loudspeaker. You can find their products at partsexpress.com. Sure, they cost twice what that pyle costs but they will sound about 50 times better and will also decimate them in terms of output.

If you were serious about what it sounds like you would have your speakers amped to get rid of the horrible distortion every deck produces and you would be running a substage. You're missing a couple of octaves without subs. Even an acoustic guitar will have lower harmonics that would be played through your subs that will help fill your music out. Forget about basslines, kick drums, etc. Adding a sub in a thirdgen is the single biggest improvement anyone can do beyond an aftermarket deck and speakers IMO.

I’m not trying to attack you personally and if I come across that way I’m sorry. I just don’t agree with the majority of what you’ve said.

Gummie

There's no point to running the stuck foam 'enclosures' and whatever it is you just bought. Run just the aftermarket ones. I personally suggest against peel & seal in favor of raam mat, edead, lizard skin, etc but that's your purgative (each product name is a link to its respective site).

Rydda

no offence taken, everyone is entilted to their openion and mine is just that. first off though, i made a mistake the superblue subs are not made by pyle, they are made by pyramid. yes they are cheap, but they put out some kick *** sound. second, no pyle amps are not top of the line but they do a damn good job. as for the comparison of the 4x6 & the 6x9's again that is an openion, however ive been into this stuff for 7+ yrs, and ive seen and heard a lot of diffrent speakers, and for the money you can spend speakers made by memphis, blaupunkt, pioneer, clarion, jbl, jvc, and some others just dont touch the quality for what you pay. you said i didnt have subs in my car, unless i read it wrong i never said that i didnt. i just said that i didnt have that kind of sub. i actually have 2 Treo 12's w/ a 1 farat cap, a crossover, and a 2400w amp. as for amping the interior speakers, ive seen too many people do some horible stuff w/ amps on those speakers. but w/ the way the pyles' sound, i see no reason to amp them. you spoke of the diffrence in head unit volume, you are totally correct, the fact that all head units are diffrent in that aspect slipped my mind, its just that all i have ever owned is the top of the line pioneer units, and most of my friends have them too. as for going to a car audio place, i've got a buddy that owns a shop around here and i spend plenty of time there. if they get slammed he calls me up to do installs, or sell stuff in the store or what ever, so i kinda know my way around this stuff. again this is my openion, i am entilted to it and no one has to agree w/ it if they dont want.

Gummie

How about MB Quart, Focal, JL, DLS, CDT, etc? The only company in that list I would even consider half way high end is Memphis.

My bad, you made it sound like you weren't running a substage.

No problems here, just stating that I don't agree but respect your opinions

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

Well the quick and not very helpful answer would be buy a bazooka( cheap ) or ditch the Sony junk..... just my two lincolns.

you can fit 8"subs in the sail panels ( i've done it ) and they will sound pretty decent. I just wedged mine in there cuz i got em for free lol.