Gummie

In my never ending quest of researching my next sub SoundSplinter has come up a few times. I know that Mean was raving about them earlier so I figured that I would ask what the general concensus is on them. I checked out their site and it looks like the RL-p is my best bet. Anyone have any opinions?

I'm not too sure that I like the response graph (the Dayton in my other thread looks way better than this sealed). I also don't know what that will sound like in car with cabin gain and what not.

I'm going to be building a fiberglass box that will probably have about 3 cubic feet of space. Box dimensions don't allow for a port unless I run a cylindrical port. Is there a difference between cylindrical ports and square/slotted ports SQ wise? Obviously sealed is the easiest to build but if I can have better sound by going ported I will do it.

Will the cabin gain make up for the low end? How do other subs compare, etc? Anyone have any comments on the sub?

Thanks for the input

1meanGTA

can demo mine if you feel like makin an 8 hour road trip

i did get a little carried away, because the owner of the company is such a damned good guy and i wanted to help get his name out there, but TC sounds woofers are the real deal. i stand by my statement that the rl-p's are the best sql woofers under 250 bucks.

the only subs i've heard in third gens to compare them to are my old jl w3 12's i had in my camaro. first 2, then then 2 more w3 10's. 12's were in a ghetto plate box in the well and the 10's were in a sealed box facing backwards. (gimme a break, i was 17) i probably also clipped the hell out of those amps, since i set the gains by ear, and i remember them being cranked. clipping can sound like massive slammage to untrained ears.
the rl-ps are quite a bit louder than either pair as i remember them, to the ear and in your chest, and almost as loud as all 4. each pair of those w3's had a 1000 watt alpine v12 (the originals)

but they sound way, way better
and cmon man, dont tell me this isnt sexy



they still aren't very well known, so i kind of doubt anyone else on these boards uses them. go to any car audio forum and make the same post, and you'll get lots of replies

Gummie

They do look dead sexy and they seem to have nice specs. The only problem is that I'm torn between three woofers that have very similar specs. RE is having a group buy, which makes the SX look more attractive. I can get one of my subs for free if I buy from ED after discounts (two subs + one amp = basically get one sub free), RE I believe uses the XBL^2 motor that so many people raved about in Adire's subs, and SoundSplinter uses a TC motor that's also has a good reputation.

I'm talking to Jim online. Hopefully he will help me hash through this.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Oaudio uses the TC2+ sub too, which I think is exactly what that Soundsplinter is. If that's the case, you'll want to look at the Oaudio stuff. Their prices are outstanding. $159 for a SVC 12" and $165 for a DVC 12". Keep in mind that although they use the same basic motor design, there are differences. The Soundsplinter has more x-max, a lower Fs and a lower Qts. I'd like to see a higher Qts on the Soundsplinter, but none the less, its specifications will make it perform somewhat differently than the O-audio driver. The Soundsplinter will certainly get louder with the additional x-max. One thing that seriously concerns me about the Soundsplinter is the extremely high inductance. I'd like to see some measured frequency response plots, because I have a feeling that these puppies are going to have a high frequency rolloff at a low enough frequency to interfere with the range that most people use their subs in (20-100hz). Before you buy, this is something that I'd either snoop around for on the message boards, or call soundsplinter and see what they say.

http://www.oaudio.com/TC2_PLUS.html

Edit: I've done a little homework and it appears that the Soundsplinter sub uses the TC-9 motor. I'm not sure what the differences are between the TC9 and the TC2+ though, so I have no additional commentary.

Gummie

I sent them an e-mail asking about higher frequency rolloff. Hopefully it will come back positive.

Gummie

I spent close to 3 hours today talking to Jim (TGO mod) about various woofers. The general consensus was that I should skip the RE group buy unless I wanted to get the XXX as it has the XBL^2 motor, which is firmly out of my price range.

As for the rl-p's inductance spike, I found a post about this on SoundSplinter’s forum. The answer didn't strike me as the best answer in the world and sounded somewhat craft. I got an e-mail that had more or less the same responce.

I need to be able to set my LPF pretty high (between 80 and 120 hz) because my comps can’t play that low as shown in the grap at the end of this post. The RL-p also has a pretty high F3 in a sealed application. This means that the RL-p would probably be a one hit wonder more or less in my application.

On paper, I'm think better off going with Oaudio's version of the RL-p. Oaudio is the company who supplies the motor SS uses. The biggest difference that stands out to me is that the Oaudio 12" has 4mm less xmas, which really isn't that big of a deal. SoundSplinter also uses a slightly newer/different motor but I don’t know how much of an impact this would have on anything.

I was playing some more in winISD and I graphed the Dayton woofers. They’re some of the best woofers I’ve graphed for a sealed application. A 12w6 was the only woofer I graphed that had better response than the Dayton’s MK3 and it required twice the box volume to do so and has 3 to 4 times the price tag.

I’m seriously considering the MK3 as a car sub again. Anyone have any input one way or another on any of this?

Graph below. The pink line represents the woofer in my kicks. I had to guess box volume. Odds are it's smaller meaning an even higher F3. Even if they were being run IB they would have a F3 of 92 Hz.

1meanGTA

a computer generated graph can't tell you what a woofer is going to sound like. they're good for a reference point, but even as that, i dont put a lot of stock in them. rl-p's are anything but one note wonders. i had mine crossed over at 80 hz with my nine.1, but once i put the extra power on them, it just seemed a little too punchy, like the higher bass was reaching its limit before the lower bass, so i put it down to 60 hz and it sounds better. i have yet to hear ANY bass note under 80 hz that it couldnt hit and hit hard. i wish you lived closer so you could listen to my setup, i think it would amaze you that 2 SQ oriented 12's can get so loud sealed. as for playing anything over 80 hz through a sub, i've never done it and don't recommend it. why can't your components go that low? they dont have to pound out the bass or anything, i have mine set for a 7 db rolloff starting at 80 hz and they blend nicely with my subs crossed over at 60. you've got a good set of components in an awesome set of kicks, get you some sound deadener and you'll have no problem blending them.

i wouldn't go with oaudio if i were you. it's not their version of the rl-p, its the same motor as the rl-i. there's a BIG difference between the rl-p and i. the rl-p's handle about twice the power for one thing. TC sounds makes the subs for SS and oaudio, as well as eclipse, old eD's and a few others. it would sound good but not get overly loud. if you are really going to pass on the rl-p based on computer graphs showing rolloff well above the frequency range a subwoofer should be used for, i would go with the mkiii. i can just about guarantee you wont be as loud or sound as good, even though the only mk3's i've heard were in a home setup. the daytons are definitely nice subs for not a lot of cash though.

i still think you should check out the magnums

edit - just now noticed, why's the box space on the rl-p's in that graph at half a cubic foot? you'll need at least 1 ft^3 for each woofer, ideally 1.25.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

That's exactly what the problem is with that sub! The F3 on that sub is something like 60hz, which means it's got a very lean bottom end and the 60-80hz region dominates. You helped flatten the response by moving your crossover frequency down to 60hz, which effectively knocked off the peak between 60-80. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the result is the equivalent of a speaker with an even lower sensitivity, since you're essentially equalizing out it's most efficient region. It makes more sense to just buy a sub that's got a flatter response in the first place.

While it's true that looking at response plots can't tell you the whole story, when you combine what you learn from those with what you know about a car's cabin gain, you can get a reasonable idea of how that woofer will behave in the car.

Gummie, the kickpanel air space is tough to estimate because it's not a completely sealed environment, but I've always used .1 cubic feet as an estimate. Keep in mind though that there will be some boundary reinforcement due to being in such a small space that should give you a 6-9dB gain in the region where it begins to drop off, so you should be able to get away with an 80-100hz cross. Once I get my measurement software, I'm planning to take a lot of measurements to help define the amount of boundary reinforcement and cabin gain at various frequencies. That probably won't happen until spring at the earliest though.

Gummie

Actually, if you check out SS's website they list a 1.15 (or something close to that) and a .66 cubic foot box. There's not a lot of diffrenece between the two and I've generally noticed that a half cube here/there really won't have that big an impact on many subs in terms of frequency responce. Power needed might be a whole other story, I really have no way of guessing that.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or ague, just get some debate going. That said, recall Jim's speaker thread. Some speakers sound tight/punchy if they're not able to play that low. This may or may not be the case, just tossing it out there for kicks and giggles. I honestly hope this isn't the case with the RL-p because it's a dead sexy sub but the graphs seem to suggest it.

Jim - if you think I will be ok crossing at 80 then I won't worry about higher frequency playback as much.

Mean - thanks for the suggestion and additional info on the Oaudio woofer Who makes the magnums? I will try to get some info on them.

More info/advice all around is more than appreciated, especially in regard to know the MK3 sounds.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I can't say for sure that you'll be ok crossing at 80. That's something that you're going to have to experiment with and decide for yourself. Because of that, I'd suggest finding a sub that can at least handle a 100hz cross.

Gummie

Taken from another forum

Anyone have any comments? If this is true than pretty much any of these subs should be able to play as low as I want. My biggest concern will be 60-100 Hz playback, right?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I agree that cabin gain does have an effect above 50hz for sure... my only question is whether it's still a 12dB/octave effect. If it was a true 12dB/octave gain all the way up to 100hz, your Quarts would play flat to 20hz, and we both know that ain't happening.

My estimate is that although you do get some boundary reinforcement at the higher frequencies, that it's not a linear 12dB/octave situation. My suspicion is that it's a steeper gain at the lowest frequencies, and a much more gradual gain up near 100hz, with it fitting a 12dB/octave slope for a very narrow region somewhere inbetween.

But, I'm just speculating based on my personal experiences/opinions. Until somebody can show a true measurement in a thirdgen (which I hope to do soon), all we can do is speculate, which is fairly worthless.

Car audio is a lot simpler when you don't know about this sort of crap. The more you learn, the more complicated it becomes.

Gummie

I agree 110%. All I want is a nice good sounding subwoofer

I wish I could go out and pick up an Infinity Perfect or a Type-R and be happy but I know better now.

I have the feeling that regardless of what I end up purchasing I will probably be happy (minus the perfect/type-r). It's just the painful process of choosing that's in my way.

Waiting for another reply from the SoundSplinter guy. I asked a few more questions last night.

I guess all I really want right now is to be sold on a given woofer to make my life simpler once again.

1meanGTA

here's a link to the mags. don't let the msrp scare you, they can be had around 300 new and 200 used. another sq sub that can get stupid loud.

http://www.stereointegrity.com/Magnum12.html

it really says its ok to use down to a half cubic foot on their site? i've been reading their forums for a long time, and the general consensus seems to be not to go any smaller than .75 each.

believe me, you don't have to worry about the rl-p's low end extension at ALL. i'm thinking it might just be my amps crossover, i haven't played with it a whole lot, and the notches aren't marked for what frequency they are, so its mostly guesstimation. when i had my nine.1 on them, they didnt sound punchy, actually it seemed to emphasize the low end. my amps are side by side, taking up every inch of space in the back, so its a pain to unscrew them and adjust them. i basically used my deck's crossover as a temporary fix.

you should check this site out, if you haven't already.

http://www.realmofexcursion.com/videos.html

check out stereo integrity, sound splinter, oz audio, tc sounds, treo, incriminator audio, and diamond's videos. granted a video won't tell you anymore about a woofer than a graph, but you can't deny the low end of the rl-p after watching some of these. guy jumps his windshield and all his body panels about 1/2 an inch with 2 12's. another guy hits 152 decibals with 2 rl-p 15's.

Gummie

$300 a pop for the magnum puts it outside of my price range too even at $220 a pop the RP-l's are pushing it. I got an e-mail from Mike from SoundSplinter and he suggested that I drop down to the RL-i line for better response up to 80 or wherever I end up crossing the comps at.

I'm also kinda thinking about grabbing a set of midbass drivers to fill the hole instead of crossing my subs so high. The only problem is that this will require another amp (a third), a bigger power wire (currently running 2 gauge), a new power distro block (only running a one in two out fused block), a new ground distro block (one out two in again but unfused), etc. If I can avoid the extra $500 or so that it would conservatively cost to add midbass to my car the right way I would love to do so. It could be done for less but it wouldn't be done correctly. Aside from money I will also be forced into mounting the drivers in the hatch (would probably build them into the sub box), which would cause phase issues and throw off my soundstage.

Given the cost of that I might as well just buy one/two W7s and call it a day

Bla

Thinking about trying out the 13Ov.2. I will get one basically free if I buy two of them and my amp at the same time and if I don’t like them I can return them within 30 days for my money back – even if they’re opened. Cutout is 11” and all the other sub’s I’m thinking about (MK3, etc) are between 11 and 11 1/8. It wouldn’t be that hard to try a few drivers out if I had more money.

But damn does the Mk3 play a lot lower than the 13Ov.2 (or basically any other sub for that matter)