Justin Horne

Hey all..

Ok, so here's the deal.. In a try to get a nice audio system, I go to my local best buy, since I knew they had Rockford Fosgate stuff at a prett good price.. A while later, we buy the following:

Kenwood 50w X 4 deck
Highest Punch seris Rockford 6X9 3 ways
Power series four inch for the dash
RF Punch P4004 1200 Watt amp
Kenwood 800 Watt sub


We go to get it installed, they do.. We get it home, i notice my front speakers arent working.. We take it to have fixed, they fix it.. It woks on the ride home, the again fail to work right away.. We take it back to have fixed, the exact same thing happens... We take it back, they fix it again, we get it home, those same speakers don't work.. For the last two times, they replaced my deck each time, and the speakers did work for the ride home.. Finally, yesterday, as we are extremely mad about them not working, we call the best buy and pretty much demand this be the last visit.. The manager comes on and recounts how he had the exact same problem a few weeks ago with these rockfors speakers, where the electricity would arc from where the wires connect to the aluminum cone, and all he had to do was put electrical tape on it, and they worked fine..

So today, we took it over, and like he said, it all worked great... Then I go to sit in the car and listen to my nice audio system (since the week it's been installed, i've listened to the whole thing for about 30 seconds), when I notice a lack of bass.. A few minutes of deduction, I find that the idiots wired it wrong, and my sub isn't on.........
Apparently, when they yanked the deck, they hooked it back up wrong...

So now, I'm simply having them yank the whole system, and I'll buy it online and have a good store install it (we have some dedicated car audio people here..)

SO, that's my horror story.. But it did present some odd questions.. Since I'm buying new components, I'm faced with a problem-- Even though the amp and speakers and sub are all real powerful, I have to keep it at about 55-60% volume.. 100% isn't even THAT loud.. Mind you, I DON'T want a loud system, rather a purely great sound quality system.. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be loud, just that it's not my goal..

The reason I bring it up then is that either 1 of two things is up- Those components aren't too good (heck, the stock audio system in our SUV is louder) or it was wired wrong... Mind you, these are the same people who I found out tonight wired my deck to that if you turn the subwoofer output OFF, the 6X9's turn off.....


So, what I'm looking for is a sound system that sounds great, can get loud, and is just an overall GOOD system. Is that what I had, wired wrong? Are there components you dee in my list you don't like? Feel free to recommend others, that's why I'm posting...


PS: STAY AWAY FROM BEST BUY INSTALLATIONS!
PPS: Sorry this is so long, I'm REALLY annoyed...

Also, how would you compare my RF P4004 amp to the Pheonix Gold Octane-R 8.0x4?
The PG: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-h8BcvQj...20&I=218OCR804
Mine: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-h8BcvQj...120&I=575P4004

Justins86bird

I wouldn't touch RF speakers with a 10 foot clown pole.
That amp like 50x4 rms? Sounds like the gains were set too low. Octane amps aint so hot. You want maybe a PG Xenon, or better still go try to find some of their older products like Ti or M series.

You can have both loud and clean, with careful selection of components and a large wallet (or credit card ).

Justin Horne

Ok, what speakers would you recommend to replace the RF speakers?

And yes, money is not unlimited, so just saying hey, get a 600 JL sub wont quite work for me.....

Justin Horne

anyone? Also, how do people feel about adiobahn? I've heard dome pretty good things about them..
As for money, I'd really not want to spend over 350 on the amp, 300 is about it, unless an amp was 350 that was significantly better.

shortyjmg

pg octane is a good cheap amp, pg exon amps are really nice. audiobahn i also like you can get those cheap also.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'd sure as hell rather have Rockford over Audiobahn. Rockford sure isn't what it once was, but it's still "competent" for the most part. I'd work on getting your system working properly before you worry about upgrading.

The thing to remember here is that Best Buy sucks, not Rockford.

Gambit69

When you say that you are going to have a good store install it, do you mean a good best buy or a good car audio shop? If you have a good car audio shop, why not just buy from them. I worked in one and we didn't put in things that came from other places because if something went wrong with it, they would want us to replace it. Just a little heads up on doing something like that. If we put it in and something went wrong and it was still under the manufactures warranty, we replaced it on the spot. I would just check with the shop to be sure they will install your items before you go out and start buying them so you don't end up with things that you can't find anyone to install for you. Just a little FYI for you.

Justin Horne

Yes, I'm going to a good audio shop we have here, not another best buy.. Also, I'm taking all the stuff back, so I'll be buying it over again, even if it's the exact same stuff...

So that system was just fine? I mean, I'm sure you could do the whole, "For 75 more, you could get a more powerful sub," etc, but overall, anything you see that ought to be replaced?

sesand

First off, all the advice you have received thus far has been top notch. I think if you are going to have everything installed at a shop and you want sound quality over all else, you might want to invest in a good head unit, some component speakers up front, and a good amp. Keep in mind that components usually play louder than their multielement counterparts since crossovers distribute the power to the drivers that can handle it correctly. There have been plenty of discussions about the pros and cons of mounting locations: kick panel speakers, door mounts, and the factory dash locations if you search for the threads.
If you just want to add the low end frequencies to get "better quality," then you should just go with the subs. Bass is typically the most expensive part (unless you need that DVD player and $1,000 components, but this doesn't seem like your case). You need a combination of things for bass: high powered amp (expensive!), quality box (typically expensive for our cars if you don't make it yourself), and enough juice from your electrical system to run everything (aftermarket alternator if you're pushing enough watts), even before you add in the cost of the sub.
The most important thing to remember is to start off with good equipment so that you don't have to replace anything (until it breaks) with the option to make additions later. Don't get sucked in to buying low end equipment just because you think you need to have all the pieces now, but can't afford the good stuff. You usually get what you pay for....
Do it right the first time!
You're making a good decision to take back everything you bought from best buy, even if you make the same purchases somewhere else.

Justins86bird

How much is your budget?

If your going with dash speakers, then Infinity, Boston plates or Alpines would be a good choice. Dont expect any midbass from them. Match them with the same brand 6x9 in the back. The RF amp is probably fine, but it sounds like your going to have a single 4 channel amp. Are you going to run the fronts and rears off the same channels on the amp and bridge sub or are your going to get another amp just for the sub?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Forget about brands this time. Since you're going to a shop that doesn't suck, just bring some of your favorite CDs and LISTEN! Listen to a bunch of speakers, even better stuff that you can't afford. The more you listen to, the better listener you become.

My one recommendation would be that you concentrate your listening (and buying) on 2 areas:

Front speakers and subs. Spend your money there, because that's where most of your music comes from. Instead of buying a pair of 4x6s and a pair of 6x9s, use that amount of money for a pair of components and kick panels. The stereo will sound better for the same amount of money.

sesand

Zerstörer

You made it sound like audiobahn was bad?? now you dont care what brand it is anymore??

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Allow me to clarify.

Audiobahn is crap.

While you may not be able to polish a turd, Audiobahn has proven that you can in fact chrome plate it.

The point I was making in my last post was that listening will lead you where you want to be. If you listen to a bunch of brands, and for some reason prefer the mind-numbing one note drone of audiobahn bass and the screaming harsh sound from their coaxes, then by all means, that's what you should spend your money on. Ultimately, it's the buyer's dollar, and the buyer will be happiest if the buyer auditions all options and chooses what he prefers.

ScrapMaker

make sure you don't trust ANYONE to put audio equipment in YOUR car...

I can honestly say that I've have better experiences with the best buy installers, than with 2 or 3 local shops here in Austin...

you see, at best buy they are backed by a huge corporation, which WILL fix any problems that arise, as they don't want fuss and negative attention...

you go into a local shop, they are your best friend... UNTIL you pay them a crapload of money for overpriced parts and labor... then they could care less who you are...

most shops are the same way, and here is an experience that may or may not influence you:
My friend purchased a very high end JVC headunit and
after a few months, it started to cut out for no apparent
reason. He took it in, and they checked the install...
seemed okay, BUT instead of giving him a new deck, and
sending the old one back in to the manufacturer
(like a best buy would,) they told him they would have to
send it in for repair at the manufacturer... it took 3
months to get his headunit back.

like a said, they don't give a crap unless you are going to give them money... the people at Bestbuy can be equally or more qualified... and they aren't out to get your money... as they make the same amount of money if they sell you a pile of crap, or the latest and greatest.

--
on another note... the reason your 6x9's and your subwoofer turn off at the same time is most likely because your deck is too cheap to have 3 pairs of RCA outputs... in this case, it is typical to wire the subwoofer to the rear output. -- or hell, maybe they used high-level inputs, but I don't know your amplifier.

--
I'd say for your setup... you could get a 5 channel amp off the net.... for CHEAP...

I'd recommend this amp... or ANYTHING similar...
Hifonics ZX8000 Zeus Series

it will power your whole car... that's more than enough subwoofer power to sound great, but not too loud... you can find other amps that have more sub output if you need it.

ddn69

Like said before. It is best to install yourself. Therefore you can wire it anyway you want, set the gains, hide wires properly, use shrink tubing and soder if you really want..You get the picture.

On to the topic of price...

Head unit-Dont spend less then like 250-300. Good head units cost money. Id recomend clarion, alpine, or eclipse I heard is good. Oh and 3 preouts is a must for subs.

Amps-Again a price point. Dont buy crap here. Phoenix gold, JBL, JL, Zues, etc are some good brands. I bought a Xennon 600.1 which retails 600+ for about half that off ebay. Theres deals out there you just gotta look. That 5 channel looks really good if your not running more then one sub or low watts.

On the speaker situation- I personally havent heard kick panels in a thirdgen but my friends grand prix sorta has kick panels and tweeters and it sounds really good for not being amped whatsoever.

As for subs-Subs can be pricey but the same as amps you gotta know where to look. I bought a pair of last year model PG subs 300 watts RMS for like 100.00 on ebay....

Wiring---Two words..Wal Mart. Though Im sure you have these already....30.00 special.

its also a good idea to upgrade your battery and alternator and maybe get a capacitor. Thats if your lights dim around 25 volume....

I would say find a friend thats experienced in car audio installs. And local shops arent the best alternative to best buy. Maybe aside from that best buy RAPES you in install fees...Installing an entire system takes maybe a few hours if you know what your doing.

Nate

TomP

I agree. Best Buy actually requires their staff to be MECP trained & certified; your local audio shop might not have any. Not saying that you need certification, but it prevents a complete moron from working at a BBY.

Only thing I don't like about BBY is that companies won't let them carry their best lines. Example, you can't buy Pioneer's high-end line (Premier) at Best Buy. BBY's getting Alpine (or so the salesguys keep telling me), but I bet it's not Alpine's high-end line.

I'm thinking you just walked into a poorly-run Best Buy. Try contacting their corporate office and see how they can help.

ScrapMaker

Circuit city is now getting mtx thunder, kicker and they've always had infinity

you have to talk to the managers to get some of the better stuff though...

I went into a local cc and asked whats the biggest amp I can get... the manager said he would use connections to get me what I needed... but they have to call the manufacturers directly... its not through cc... kinda weird

does MTX make anything good, or audiobaugn? amp or subwise?

mgomez

I would stick with a good brand name (Alpine, Kenwood, etc.) and try to stick with them thoughout the car. Get a alpine deck, alpine amps, alpine crossovers, alpine signal processors, etc. Everyone here seems to have given you pretty solid advice. I personally would install the audio myself. It may be a little time-consuming if you have a lot of equipment but it's a lot easier to trace problems if you know how your system is laid out. As far as speakers it may be difficult to get some brands in bass producing speakers. I don't think alpine makes speakers that are very big. But I'm not sure. Everyone has a different brand name preference but stick with what you feel comfortable with. Most people develop a liking for a particular brand because of experience either good or bad. You might want to do a little research into what kind of sound you want, what components it will take, how hard it will be to install, and what power requirements the system will need. Then it will be a little easier to get the right components and you'll be a lot happier with the results in the end.

ScrapMaker

I wouldn't just stick with one brand... companies make things that are good, and bad as well...

just go on review and advice, get the best thing you can afford, REGARDLESS of brand...

sesand

Alpine makes quality equipment, but I wouldn't buy everything from them. I think their speakers leave something to be desired, but their head units (aside from being ugly) and amps are good.
I have seen alpine at best buy, but not top end.
Buy the best speakers you can afford that sound good to you. Comparing speaker stats is usually worthless, since they usually don't include frequency response curves (just getting the range doesn't make a stinking bit of difference since they all play within the human hearing range).

Get a head unit that does what you want it to, and compare the stats between similar units from different brands (crutchfield is great for this even if you don't buy from them). If you stick with quality brand names, you'll be ok.

Amps - good luck on this one. it requires a lot of knowledge, reading, and comparing to make an informed decision - the new CEA compliance will make a difference in the next few years (and already has).

you will have more satisfaction if you install it yourself and be able to tweak without doubting what you're doing.

ScrapMaker

yup almost all decks SOUND the same, its all about the features...

better eq is a feature...

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Best Buy sucks, I used to work there, and their business practices are very shady and backwards.

Rockford Fosgate sucks, and they are dealing out junk now relying on their reputation. I have had 2 amps crap out by them, and not due to abuse.

Audiobahn is OK. Not great for clean sound, but good if you like loud noise. Trust me, I know, I have 2 subs by them

I'd normally suggest Tweeter to do any installation work, but after what I went through (see link below), I can't say anything good about them either.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ght=%2Btweeter

Sorry I'm no help here...

NEEDAZ

There’s a BIG difference in how some decks ‘sound’, even listening to different models in the same brand. Listen to a low end and high end Pioneer back-to-back, you’ll hear it.
I was just playing with the new CDA-9853 (with the ‘glide thingy’) at Best Buy.

ScrapMaker

so if you set a $200 deck to flat eq, and a $500 deck to flat eq, you think you can hear the difference?

I'll be the first to admit, if you have a good eq, then you can customize your sound more... but like I said, I consider that to be a feature... so you're looking for as many features as you can...

NEEDAZ

Wow, that was quick, you’re always on here.
Sure you can hear the difference. If you need a more drastic example, listen to a low end JVC and a high end Pioneer. You’ll hear it. Do it back to back and use a good test disk, something you know and is dynamic.
I’ll give you 30 seconds to respond.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

ok ive skimmed thru these post cuz they are really long....

1) i have audiobahn subs, amp, and speaks. SQ is not their forte but loudness is. The amp are powerful and cheap the speakers are not as great as everyone cracks em up to be.

They arent bad. but not to my liking( i want more SQ and output)

2)Price does not negate quality when you factor in the online discount factor. My headunit is outstanding so far to me and i only paid $150 @ www.etronics.com

my amp is 800 watts RMS and it was like $220 @ a local shop and ive seen it online for around $150

3) Stick to good brand name stuff... not rockwood or somethin like that. and dont get sony. Sony is overpriced and overrated.

4)install your system youself.. its not really worth paying some1 to do it because it really inst very hard...

ScrapMaker

an example I always work with... is I can't tell the difference in hooking up my headphones to my PC, or to a boombox...

are you saying that the D/A converter itself 'colors' or alters the sound?

mgomez

A D/A converter can alter sound in a bad way depending on how good it is. Since digital is either 1 or 0 it's either on or off. Problems can arise if the binary 1 (.1 volt) or 0 (.4 volts) are not received by the converter correctly. If the bit received in .3 volts the "gray" area, you can get noise, static, or poor sound reproduction depending on what the D/A converter decides to with it. The numbers are an example but you get the point. In a quality deck stricter tolerances are placed on the input signaling and the D/A converter itself allowing it to compensate for minor "straying" of voltages. Stricter tolerances and better components also means increased cost. So the saying " You get what you pay for"

ScrapMaker

I'd say that the only REAL difference is what the deck does with the digital signal... the quality of the internal amp and the EQ...

if you are passing a flat signal using pre-amp output... I really wonder if there is an audible difference...

mgomez

I'm personally a BIG fan of eq's even though they are not as popular as they used to be. I got a really good kenwood signal processor the other day and I'm still not sure exactly how eveything wotks. What I have figured out so far sounds great. I can adjust each speaker independently and save favorite setting in memory. For truly great all around sound a eq/signal processor is a must. Bass can be had from almost any deck with a big amp.

ScrapMaker

I don't know if I will ever get one, since I always get decks with good eq's built in

NEEDAZ

I don’t think it’s as much the D/A converter as how things get handled in the pre-amp. But in the per-amp... For instance, a low-end and high-end Pioneer may use the same amp IC and EVTC (Electronic Tone and Volume Control) IC as a high-end Pioneer, And there the two biggest things the audio path. But the support circuitry will vary Greatly. The high-end units will have more parts with higher tolerances making up a more complicated audio path, but it works. Scrap, I know your in best buy from time to time. Take a good test disk (check with the security goon at the door) and listen to a low-end JVC, a low-end Pioneer, and the high end Alpine, and set all the audio features flat first. Pick good speakers too...

NEEDAZ

Oh, and as far as indeterminate bits and CD’s. Any half decent CD player can play CD’s with 1/8 th inch holes drilled in it and not skip a beat and have no audible sound differences. Error correction can do a lot. When you start getting audible problems like static or skipping it's more often a bad CD or bad optical pickup. So noticeable audible differences are aren’t coming so much for these missing bits, but how they’re decoded and made into audio.

mgomez

I was giving a broad generalization, you obviously have also dome your homework and are a bit more specific. You did a lot better job of putting into text that made sense to everyone. I'm not exactly good at that.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

its not homework to needaz.. he basically builds these things(well repairs)

ScrapMaker

it's a shame with an MP3 disc, that you can't even have a smudge on the disk...

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

i can attest to the cd player quality becasue ive had cds play on one cd player and not anohter

NEEDAZ

I spent some time Talking to an Alpine engineer last week about some of this. This is some of what he said about SQ and HUs. On D/A converters. A single bit DAC will typically have a S/N ratio of 80db. A regulated single bit DAC will fall in the 80-85db neighborhood. Mulit-bit DAC will float in the 90-95db range. And the big boys, Sign-Magnitude DACs (like the burr-brown) come in with the big numbers 100-120db. But that’s only one part of the story. Things like smart ground architecture. Alpine calls it STAR circuit design. And about 100 other small details make the difference in a good high quality HU.

ScrapMaker

It's weird... I look around at the alpines and clarions, and I see limited screens, eqs, add-ons, and extra features...

they are also usually pretty cheap... I never see any expensive alpines... (more than $500)

maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots.

Then I see the pioneers and kenwoods that go easily up to $500 and have big screens, incredible EQs and lots of additional functionality.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

he was using alpine as an example... i think my h/u has a burr brown DAC...yay

ScrapMaker

tons of headunits have a burr-brown DAC in them now...

Pioneer:
9600mp
8600mp
DEX-P9
960mp
860mp

Kenwood:
KDC-X879
KDC-X679
KDC-X579

does the 24-bit DAC do anything for mp3s?

92rsstallion

Sup fellas,

well i am currently working for circuit city, and i personally feel that you can get great products you just have to know what to look for. Alpine, Infinity, Clairion and a few panasonic are exceptions. Yes we did get kicker products into our stores so we carry everything up to L5's and can get ahold of L7's if need be. Personally i think Best Buy sucks, not only from personal experience but lack of customer service. Alot of times we get customers from them that are complaining b/c bb puts off installs and such. Circuit City is a great place to go if your not comfortable installing your own equipment. To be blunt i personally would stay away from jensen, sony and rampage etc..... Again you really can't go wrong purchasing an alpine deck, amps, or anything else. Like someone else said audiobahn are loud but if your truly looking for sound quality infinity, alpine, clairion etc...Audiobahn do make some great products but their subs are pretty much based off a couple frequencies that just burp the notes out at loud volumes. Rockford products have really gone down the drain and as for kenwood i really don't care for their line of products. Matching componets are also going to play a big role in how it sounds. Matching resistance (ohms) and wattage come on everyone you want to focus on RMS figures not PEAK power it doesn't me ****. Peak is what if "COULD" put out in possibly a lightning storm. That line is from one of our installers.
THD distortion is important and secondly when tuning your amps check your gain if its anywhere close to 3/4 you should look at a better amplifers or something with more power. Don't overlook rms power for decks rca preouts alpines 4volt preouts allow you to keep your gain down and get clearer signal "hotter signal"

ScrapMaker

pioneer just came out with 6.5v rcas