FBodyCrazed

Hey Guys, I have a quick question. I already have a four channel amp run to my speakers and I wanted to add an amp for my subs, also I would like to install a capacitor.

Can I just get a distribution block and tap into my power wire to add the amp and also tap into my power wire to add the capacitor? Or is it a little more involved than that? Your help would be greatly appreciated. I would like to do this myself and save some money, Thanks guys!!!!


Nick

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Do it yourself, this is easy stuff.
I'd skip the capacitor, they're all hype, does no real good.

What gauge of power wire have you already run?
What amp is the 4 channel, and what is the sub amp? Brand, model, etc. Also, if you already have the cap (i'd toss it away..) then specs on that too.

But yea, basically just a distribution block, but that's if your main primary wire is big enough already.

-J

FBodyCrazed

I already have the 4 channel Alpine 700w run to my speakers, the power wire is fairly big and it's blue...lol. If you need the exact size I could get that for you.

The amp for the subs I want to install is a Alpine Amp also and its a 500w deal. I'm not real sure about the brand of the capacitor, but I know it's one faret. The guy I bought it from told me one faret per 1,000 watts.

Basically I just want the capacitor because it will stop my headlights from flickering.

Thanks for your help man, and if you need exact specs on the amps and the capacitor, let me know.


-Nick-

curtis84ta

this is how i have my cap wired i drew this up a long time ago,

and what an installer did was jump the power lead from 1 amp to another and also has its own separate ground.

ScrapMaker

I hope you're kidding about capacitors being "all hype." Please elaborate, will you?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Well it's an alpine amp so that's probably a fairly accurate wattage rating then, some amps over/under rate, so model #'s are better for us here. Assuming those are correct wattage, you'll want 4 AWG or so. If that's what your wiring is, good, otherwise, consider upgrading it.
(4AWG is more of an opinion, and everyone has one, some may say get 2AWG or 8AWG is fine, so pick your favorite...)

That wiring diagram posted is entirely correct, that's how I did mine, and how it's supposed to be done. If you can understand the diagram that is, it's fairly straightforward.

ok the capacitor = hype thing:
If you think the capacitor will make your stereo louder, like it may say on the box, then hate to break your bubble, it won't.
However if you're trying to avoid the lights dimming thing, it MAY help. However I think, and many studies think, they are crap. I'm going to skip the "how it works", 'cuz you can search on the internet for yourself, but
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/9857.html
Is one I just found here. A cap only holds a fraction of a second of charge, (small fraction), so when the bass hits, yea, your lights won't dim..... unless that bass hits for longer then a split second, which it will, so your lights will......DIM!
If you want to avoid this:
1) bigger alternator
2) bigger/better battery
3) battery in the rear of the car (solonoid, isolator, etc.)
4) capacitor (far less effective)

I've personally had one, it was nice to look at, but it didn't help me at all, the dual battery setup totally solved the problem.
Anyway, this is a matter of opinion, some (Scrapmaker) will probably vehemently argue this, so you may as well make up your mind on your own...
Actually I have a magazine article around, from some "Auto sound" type of magazine, that had an independant test of capacitors, 1F -> 50F, and it showed oscilliscope readings and all sorts of good info (not just audible opinions...) and it showed they didn't add power, or smooth out the bass response, or stop the headlights dimming stuff.... I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT: Can't find it, it was Performance Auto & Sound though...
Go to:
http://www.bcae1.com/
This is the ABSOLUTE BEST website for car/stereo electronics. Click on the link on the right for capacitor and read it, by the time you're done you'll know how they work etc etc.

NEEDAZ

Proper wire gage has NOTHING to do with opinion, OR wattage. It's all in total current and length of the wire run.

Scrappy, I think he just called you out......

ScrapMaker

Okay, apparently MANY people don't seem to understand the purpose of a capacitor. It's not intended to make your stereo louder, (does it really say this on the box for a capacitor somewhere?)... It's intended for two things as far as I know. 1) Even out power spikes, which increase the longevity of both your battery and alternator, (but mostly the alternator,) and 2) Your sub will hit harder because it has more instantaneous power when the amplifier needs it...

guess what? A 'hit' of bass is only a fraction of a second, normally... so that's why a capacitor is helpful.

A capacitor is definitely a good thing, and anyone who has subwoofers should definitely have one.

ScrapMaker

plus I would never say that more battery, or bigger wires is a downside... I personally have an optima yellow top battery and it seems to provide slightly more amperage than my previous wet battery.. so yeah, increasing wire gauges is always a good thing....

capacitors are in electronic devices for a reason, if they didn't level out electrical spikes, then what purpose would they serve? other than simple storage, that is...

plus, I've never been in a car where the headlights dimmed with bass... unless that car had wiring problems... so I would agree that it's never a good idea to 'fix' that problem with a capacitor... a cap simply compliments existing wiring.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I agree wholeheartedly.
The wiring, yea, it's a matter of length and power (assuming a constant voltage, or you could go with amps....whatever)

But! A pyramid amp sez it makes 1600W, do I use 2AWG? nope, 8AWG. Can I use 8AWG on my 800W stereo? sure. Should I use 4AWG? ok. Will it work better? maybe... It's based on math, but nothing is written in stone, you can use thinner if you want, but you'll get more loss, more prone to fire etc... I ran 4 AWG on my 1300W RMS stereo, no problems. Now i'm going to run 1AWG on my 1200Wish RMS system, 'cuz I got the wire cheaper this time.

The cap: Yea, i've overheard many conversations of gaining DB from a cap, that I shake my head at. For sure it'll extend the life of your alternator. Just a matter of why you're buying it....

But yea, a cap won't save dimming headlights, (might help...)that's from a bad alternator (voltage regulator right?), or more likely, battery, or too thin wiring perhaps?

I preferred my dual battery setup, but that was also due to going to a drive in movie theatre, leaving the car off for 2hrs and running a big stereo, then being able to start the car after.

Bass hit, = fraction of a second, ok, never knew the definition.

Whatever, I'm thinking more of a rap type of music, with a LONG bass tone, your cap won't help that. but yea, punchier music, punchier subs, for sure it'll help.. Personal preference.
Anyway, now that you have the info, you can decide for yourself.

ScrapMaker

You're right on... better wiring is good, and I can honestly say I've heard the difference of a cap in someones car... but I agree that can be a mental effect... not necessarily a real benefit..

now a question for you sonix.... you run a dual battery setup? do you have a standard lead-acid battery up front, and a sealed gel battery in the rear? (read: optima)

I was thinking of doing this, but I soon realized I don't have much room for a battery in the rear... so I came up with this little device instead... after hours of searching for a damn solution I just decided to build it myself... no thanks to any local audio shops....

You can even use this device to control your battery isolator if you have one installed... it could switch based on voltage.... or any number of things, other than the obvious ignition control....

I made this so that I would stop draining my battery at the beach... I've done it pretty much every spring break for years... so this year I've got a solution... it kills the stereo at 11volts and I can come start the car... the real solution would be to have this sucker start my car and keep the stereo playing seemlessly... but I've got to work on that for a while....

Smart Integrated Stereo Controller $30 or less

Once I get this to work I'd be happy to help others to get it working in their cars...

also if something like this already exists, and doesn't cost $100, please tell me! Thanks.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

well, the dual battery setup was in my last car. Delta 88, trunk (not hatch)
So I had a typical lead-acid up front, and then another in the trunk in a plastic battery box. yea, I know, the fumes, bad idea, but anyway, that was what I used. I used a solenoid, ran from a wire underhood that went hot upon starting the car, so car is on, batteries together, turn off, and stereo runs completely off rear battery (deck, and amps).

You could put a small battery in the back left locking console area couldn't you? or where your spare is? or are those already taken?
They make smaller gel batteries don't they? or you could dual under the hood...
That controller sounds pretty complicated, to get it to time each action... You an electrical engineer or something? Or are a lot of those components premade?
I've never heard of that type of gizmo marketed before though...

ScrapMaker

I'm no engineer, and none of it is really complicated... but thinking about it... the only time you'd really want to switch the isolator is upon starting the alternator... right? so I guess my device is mostly helpful for keeping the battery from draining

did you ever have problems with the alternator failing from having to recharge your rear battery? I've been told its hell on those things... that's why I got a lifetime warranty...

I plan on running my battery down many many times... that's why I got the optima yellowtop... it's a deepcycle AND starting battery... its nice, because its got about 13.9 volts with the car off... and it reads 16.5 or so when I start the engine... (at the battery posts)

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

nah, I only ran my dual battery setup for one year or so, drained the battery many times.. It was a $25 pick-a-part special..... The alternator seemed ok, it was the stock piece, and never died on me. I think that's mostly luck though. Yea, running dual batteries through a solenoid only is supposed to be harder on the alternator then an isolator.

whoa, 16.5V? From my understanding anything above 15V can damage your deck if left for long... -J

ScrapMaker

on that note... my brother's brand new f-150 STX puts out 17.3v with everything turned on and the stereo playing...

turn off the truck and it stays at about 16 and SLOWLY (days) comes down to like 13.5

(all of this according to the built-in Dealer test method)--digital lcd in dash.

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

Ok, sorry to interupt all of this speculation about amps and caps, but I have some a realworld experince that I feel will put some of this to rest.

First off, and somewhat unrelated, the instructions that came with my equipment said NOT to have your amp and cap share the same ground as shown in the home-made skematic above. I'm not sure what, if any, effect doing this will have, but I just thought I'd mention it for the benifit of the board.

Secondly, I had my single amp, single sub system (~525Wrms @ 4 ohm) hooked up initially w/o a cap. I am not an audiophyle by any means, so I was more than happy with how it initially sounded with my 12" L5 kicker. For reference this setup would barely dim the lights and only if I was intentionally trying to dim them by turning things up louder than I consider neccesary. More or less out of boredom I bought and installed a cheap 1 farad cap off of ebay. Let me just go ahead and say this thing made a HUGE difference with how loud my sub was. So loud that I had to go back and readjust all of my gains because the controls I have at my HU didn't have enough range (which is large and I was at the center of) to offset the change the cap caused. Just incase this isn't clear, adding the cap was the ONLY change made at this time. Considering that this was the cheapest component of my entire system, I don't regret buying it for even a second.

Sorry to contadict all of Sonix's websites that I didn't bother to read, but I feel a legit real world experince will trump theory any day of the week. These however are just my findings, take them how you will.

NEEDAZ

Got SPL numbers? Or by ear?

curtis84ta

that drawing is from what an installer did and how he put in the the cap with the system. all i did was trasnfer it over from my first car to the thirdgen with only changing 6*9's, 4*2's and headunit. i asked the guy shouldn't it have its own ground while he was putting it in and did send a ground from the cap to amp and cap to ground on the car. Aswell as amp to ground. I asked about looping a ground if that would do anything and he said no there wouldn't be looping and well at the time didn't know any better (and still to date no probs with it, had it for about 2 yrs now)

(ive hit as loud as 138 db's with my current subs, but now geared towards clarity)

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

By ear.

I wouldn't be able to quantify the increase, but I can certainly say with out even the smallest bit of a doubt there was one. I just thought this was worth mentioning because I feel my system wasn't even a clear cut canidate for improvement here to begin with. Since then I have rewired the sub for 1 ohm which should have roughly quadrupled my RMS wattage and I still can't get the lights to dim even with specifically trying. Voltage at the amp stays constant at 14.4 and I've seen it pull over 50 amps since it's been like this and I really don't turn it up that loud at all.

ScrapMaker

how do you manage to keep the voltage that high under serious load? is the alternator bigger than stock?

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

Alternator is stock, 4 awg all the way back, every connection has gold terminals and are soilderd (sp?), not crimped. Oh, and this is in my '01 Regal, not my thirdgen if that makes a diff.

ScrapMaker

yeah, it seems our cars have lower voltages than many others...

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

what amp are you running that you arent melting it down in 1ohm load..... also.... where could i p/u a SPL meter cuz im doin a project 4 skool( pics soon) and id like to dB my system now and after. btw my local radio doesnt carry it

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

A lot of amps are stable at 1 ohm. Mine's a Kenwood (haters start your engines, lol!) x811d. I specifically called them just to ask about this and the tech more or less laughed at me and then said no problemo big guy. Needless to say, it was a ton louder after this change.

curtis84ta

typically its on the passenger side dash porting almost above the one speaker hole i think its 3 inches from the a piller, and 1-2 inches from the glass im sure IASCA will have something on it on their website somewhere not too sure tho.but its usually p-side on dash speaker sorta spot for db's

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yes, that's where you put it. Where to find one however is a different story...
Once a year or so the big car audio shops in town have sound-offs, and so they have a DB-meter... Not sure if some out-of-towner brings it in though.... It'd be hard to get one for yourself...
Maybe a higher end audio shop will test yours for you for a fee.... Like a dyno test for stereo...

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

cool that will help for my project.. but where could i buy a dB meter... like i siad the geeks at radio shack dont have it near my house

ScrapMaker

just put your ear up to the subwoofer and if you die or go deaf, its loud enough

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

roflmao if i die lol. yea i want a system soo serious that small animals and children wouldnt be able to survive being with in 10 feet of it

btw i heard that you could buy a dB meter from radio shack in one of these mags.. uh super street. to test how loud your exhaust is

ScrapMaker

couldn't you just use a microphone? a computer can read db levels... as long as mic can go that high

NEEDAZ

Those Rip Shack db meters only go to something like100 db max, and there not cal’d.

ScrapMaker

just go out and buy a richter scale and put it on your sub box...

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

i like the idea of the comp and mic.....but my desktop wont go to my car and id need about 500ft long mic cable

i guess ill search online 4 a dB meter but thanks for the Heads up needaz