during the paint job i pulled out the 6x9s and realized that the way they are mounted to the car is ridiculous. im sure you all know what im referring to.
what im wondering is if anyone has used sound dampening mdf or some other material to mount their 6x9's.
i simply cant see the flimsy metal card or shredded carpet that's in there being able to support ay real speaker and let it show ts real ability.
if you have done this mod did you get results and what did you do?
also, has anyone else had a prob mounting a 1 din deck and making it clear the trans hump? i have like a centimeter sticking out using a mounting kit and it annoys me...

 

not 100% sure what you mean by rediculous... do you mean the foam insulation? the screws/screwlength?

yes people do remove that padding and put in stuff like dynomat... but not very many people would go through the effort to remove it, because they usually get subwoofers anyway, and use a high-pass filter on the 6x9's, which pretty much deletes any need for sound-dampening material.... just a thought.

dunno what exactly you think is so rediculous, but I know I replaced my screws with some longer/slightly bigger screws, because the old ones felt kinda loose, and these made the whole slightly larger...

-Steve

 

i have memphis pr 6x9's and they are bassey and yes i use a crossover but the metal to which they attach will actually flex with just a lil push from my finger. so if the whole point to making sound is to move the cone and the cone exerts force against the basket and the basket exerts force against the mounting plate and the mounting plate flails like a little girl because it was made crappy. which by the way that flaling would be the energy from your speaker NOT making any sound and since its not doing its job right because of this incompetent mounting situation how do you expect it to sound right? thats ridiculous. its physics, so does anyone have an experiance with using a different mount?

 

I see what you mean, and that would be rediculous... but what I find weird is that your metal is so flimsy, because mine is as solid as a rock... feels as strong as a fender metal, or stronger... not sure if it has anything to do with being a t-top car, but its really thick... the only problem I have, is that with too much bass, the actual outside of the car will vibrate where the 6x9's are...

and I know some people have made some mounting brackets for components, but I don't know about 6x9's... most people probably don't run into the problem you have, or care to fix it... one or the other.

good luck on your problem

-Steven

 

thanks

 

The amount of reduced output due to the flimsy metal absorbing some of the energy is way too little to have any audible difference.

BUT... that vibrating metal is adding all kinds of harmonics that can reduce your sound quality. The metal piece is strong enough to hold the speaker, but adding some sound deadening (Dynamat) could possibly provide an audible improvement.

In my case it's a non issue because the first thing I do is rip out the rear speakers. I have no use for them.

 

I always slide the fader so I can hear the front and rear the same... I love rear fill, but I guess that's just me... plus I love pissing off the people in the back... I always have to fade 80% front when someone is back there, or they can't hear me...

-Steve

 

what i was thinking of doing was using some sound deadening fiber board like maybe 1/2 inch think or 3/4's and drill hole according to my 6/9's because the current hole dont line up right.
my freind works at a car audio place and he says he has made fiberglass enclosures for speakers as small as 5 inches across. maybe if i go nuts i could ask him to do that up, that would sound great if tuned right.

 

Did you ever have the 6x9 enclosures made? Or at least put mdf back there instead of the metal sheet? I know I'm having the same problem. I am wondering if the 3/4" sheet will fit back there behind the plastic sail panel.

 

nope never got to do it. shop closed down and i stopped thinking about it..

 

I didn't remove it, and I have some kenwood eXcelons running ~125w - They're putting out mainly mid-bass, but even that is enough to make the car rattle. I also hate the shallow mounting depth... I was just bearly able to fit my speaker in there!!
SOmething needs to be done, but I haven't decided what yet...

 

you could fiberglass an enclosure thatd be cool

 

I'm getting closer and closer to traveling down the fiberglass road as we speak - it is definitely the most effective use of space no matter what application (kick panels, sub enclosures, etc). Unfortunately, I really don't have the time (med school takes up a lot of that), or the space (apartment buildings don't have anywhere to work), or the money (med school, again). Then again, if good sound was easy, everybody would be doing it

 

i dont have the time money or space either....... but if you work over a period of time like i am you can overcome that, if you have room for one box you can store the fiberglass materials, and ive spent like $100 total for all the materials so far to build my box and i think i went OD on buying the glass( i got like 10 yards of 36" wide)

 

Putting 6x9s into an enclosure of any type isn't likely to provide a benefit in sound quality, in fact I'll bet it'll make it worse. Virtually all 6x9s use a high-Q woofer because they are intended to function in an infinite-baffle configuration. Putting them into a small enclosure is going to reduce lower bass output, and add substantially to the midbass & lower midrange. The result is going to be a thick, dark, boomy sound.

 

Interesting thread. I recently fitted a whole new system in my 87 Camaro. I used to have rattling problems with my rear speakers until I purchased and installed the subs. I simply tweaked the system to have the subs handle mainly all the bass - so my bass setting is set at -8 on the head unit, but it sounds like it's all the way up. Ill tell ya though, a good sound starts with a good enclosure. I actually built my own custom fit enclosure. If you would like to see it, go to www.cardomain.com/id/resilient and go to the very last page. It has a few pictures of the process, and it turned out very nice.

 

How can I find out what the Q is for my Infinity speakers? They aren't posted for the Kappa 50.5cs or the Reference 9602i, both of which I just purchased online. Is this information usually on the box, or are most manufacturers too lazy to even figure this out? They must know that anybody serious about car audio needs to have this information. It must be a marketing scheme for their lower end models so they don't scare away beginners by making it look too complicated. All the numbers are in the manual for their Perfect speaker line.
I definitely need to know this stuff so I can figure out enclosure size for the kick panels. Even Blaupunkt posts this information (no offense if anyone is a fan) - I expect a little more from Infinity.

 

i didnt know that..... are components meant to be IB or enclosed? generally speaking

 

I think it depends. Take a look:

Check out this website first if you don't understand Theile-Small parameters (or at least how to use them): http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=29

Then fool around with AJ Design Software that is downloadable from the fatmat website software listing (or you can probably google it).
If you put in all the Thiele-Small parameters inherent to the speaker and fiddle with the Qtc, you'll see it's much easier to put a woofer in a sealed enclosure of reasonable size and have a reasonably flat frequency response (Qtc between .7 and 1.2) if the speaker has a lower Qts than if it has a higher one.
For instance, take a look at the T-S parameters of the Infinity Perfect line (you can download the manual containing them from infinitysystems.com).
If the Qts is around .4 (such as the Infinity Perfect 6") compared to .7 (such as Infinity Perfect 5.25") - among other parameters that change - and Qtc is held constant at 1.2, the box size is considerably larger for the smaller speaker (5 liters vs 1.5 for the 6").
In order to make the box size smaller for the 5" speaker (to around 2 liters), you would have to increase Qtc to around 2, which will yield an "unpleasant" boomy resonance frequency. In other words, enclosing a speaker with a high Qts in a small enclosure will not yield the low end frequency you desire (the main reason you enclose a speaker in the first place). Rather, you will get muddy bass from a higher Qtc.
I was amazed that the exact same model speaker would behave so different, just between sizes! I would probably mount a speaker with a Qts of around .7 in an infinite baffle and high pass it for better power handling and then put some sound deadening material all over the wall behind it to help "enclose" the rear wave as much as possible. This is basically what Jim said above, but it doesn't hurt to know why if you're interested.

So of course I know all this, but Infinity doesn't post T-S parameters for the Kappa line, which I just bought, and it is nearly impossible to find their product support online. I'm guessing the T-S parameters are similar to the Perfect line, but I wouldn't bet your lunch money on it.

Hope this helps.

 

This website may be helpful to some even though it was not to me:
http://www.thielesmall.com/database.asp

It appears to be an exceptional resource for discontinued speaker models.

 

It's high. The Q for all 6x9s is very high, because there are no applications where the 6x9 is in an enclosure. They all operate in infinite baffle configurations, usually on the rear package tray.

I wouldn't blame infinity for not providing Q specs... almost no speaker manufacturers provide that on anything except subs. But... virtually all car audio speakers (woofers being the exception) are high Q drivers.

 

If this is the case, then what is the point of making enclosed kick panels for the majority of components? Do most people just use the smaller enclosure and EQ the boominess?

 

The automobile is an imperfect environment, and speakers are an imperfect transducer. Put the two together, and you are forced to make a lot of comprimises. For many people, making notable gains in imaging and soundstaging are worth the tradeoff of tonal accuracy... especially when you can eq the sound to help restore most tonal accuracy, but all the tuning in the world won't make up for ****-poor speaker locations.

But hopefully in a few more months I'll have a kick panel & speaker combo that addresses these issues specifically for the thirdgen.

 

well for example.. i have 5.25" components from Audiobahn right now... i dont care at all what they perform for lows but i want good mids and highs ( i have subs for the lows) would a sealed enclosure and hpf help the mids?

 

Let me in on this if you come up with a breakthrough!

I was reading about the CDT UpStage system on the internet and it sounds fantastic ON PAPER - have you had any experience with it personally?

 

I understand that woofers have a very high Q... and using this information... would it not seem logical, when creating kickpanel enclosures, to basically vent all the air out a hole in the front? don't seal it, and don't do any fancy porting... you want it to basically be a free-air sub...

why don't kickpanel enclosures incorporate this design? seems like you'd gain low-end frequency response and also lessen vibration... guess I don't know enough about this sort of thing.

 

A hole in the front of the enclosure you described is NOT an infinite baffle, and it will NOT isolate the front and rear waves, and will yield cancellation at even relatively low frequencies. If you use an enclosed box that vents all air out a hole in the front, you have essentially created a PORTED BOX, which is bad for a couple reasons: these woofers are not designed for ported enclosures, and the hole/box combination are not likely tuned to any specific frequency. An infinite baffle configuration does not mean you can mount a speaker "wherever you feel like." An infinite baffle means the front of the woofer is (theoretically) 100% isolated from the rear by the baffle.

 

This "breakthrough" isn't exactly revolutionary, but just an opportunity for me to cater a specific product to a small market, something the big names can't economically do. I'm going to experiment with some low-q woofers in various kick panel arrangements, and then design a crossover specifically for those drivers in that exact arrangement. This addresses 3 issues at one time:

1. It gets speakers into the kick panels instead of the dash, which in itself solves 2 issues:
--A. Larger higher quality drivers than what you can fit into a 4x6 spot
--B. Better imaging than the dash.

2. Driver selection is optimized for kick panel use, which is a major problem when buying a normal set of component speakers.

3. The crossover is designed precisely for those drivers in that kick panel. Commercial components have a crossover that's designed for those drivers to be mounted on the same plane, at the same distance from the listener. This works great in a car audio shop's sound board, but this never happens in your car, and it's further complicated by the off-center seating position, which in effect means that with regard to your position, the left and right speakers are oriented differently.

Addressing all 3 of these issues isn't terribly complicated (at least not yet), and is something that many very good audio shops around the country are perfectly capable of, but in most cases, they do it with active filters instead of passives, which drives up costs and complexity, and puts it out of the reach of the average audio guy on a budget like virtually every thirdgenner that I know. This approach lets me package a $450-500 bolt-in solution that should rival something that would typically cost 3-5 times as much. But... the reason I can do this and the big companies can't, is that I don't plan to make a living doing it. I'm doing it for the fun of it. It's just not feasable for a large company to put the R&D into a product that they are only likely to sell a dozen or less of.

As for CDT's upstage kit, I haven't had an opportunity to play with one, although I'd like to. I'd be interrested in seeing just how well it works compared to mounting any other pair of attenuated tweeters up high.

 

so the only way to have a true infintite baffle setup in the kickpanels would be to have an open cavity behind it, that possibly combined with the air in the doors?

I think that speakers mounted in the doors, that use the air inside the door are considered infinite baffle, are they not?

 

technically yes


IB is really like a sort of enclosure that just has less parts.... for it to work properly you must have the front sealed from the rear and( with subs at least) the rear half sealed to most of the enviroment.

with a sub you would use the whole trunk as the box and would have to seal it really well for and decent sound to come out of it

 

but to me it seems that components should sound better in the doors than in kick panel enclosures...

 

Imaging will be better in the kick panels. For an infinite baffle application, there is definitely more room behind the speaker in the door than in the kick panel area, so the midbass will likely be better in the door. However, the overall quality of the sound depends on many things, and hopefully Jim will be able to hook us up with something that addresses all of the 3rd gen issues....
I'm still intrigued with the CDT UpStage system, especially since it's only $100 at thezeb.com

 

I don't think mid-bass is super directional.... the tweet is the most important, isn't it? just make sure you aim it at your ears...

 

Midbass is directional, and is important for male vocal imaging, among other things. Component midbass drivers mounted in the doors tend to pull the soundstage towards the driver's side for the driver and towards the passenger side for the passenger (although not as much as the tweeters do). It is also important to have the woofer as close to the tweeter as possible so they sound like a single source (a speaker that covers the full frequency range) - the closer they are, the more realistic the sound, especially if the crossover is particularly steep or set at a relatively high frequency. Basically, if the woofers are mounted in the doors, the tweeters need to be mounted nearby, giving poor imaging....

 

A lot of cars I've been in, even from the factory, have the tweeters located over a foot away from the woofer... I can't say that they sounded 'unrealistic' or that they had bad imaging...

I guess there is no point in really talking about putting the woofers in the doors, because to do that, you have to space it unreaslistically far away from the door...

I like the idea of the kickpanel enclosures, but its a shame that they are so expensive, and people's feet tend to block the sound, (at least in all the cars I've ridden in,) maybe people have overcome this problem by now.

 

well my set up is pretty damn nice suonding for now to me....

 

I saw no reason to put them in the doors since that would involve cutting metal, the hassle of trying to avoid the window/motor, and finding a way to avoid water that drips inside the door.
Most speaker manufacturers recommend that the woofers are located at most 18" from the tweets, but the closer the better.

In our cars, tweeters mounted in the kick panels usually don't get blocked by legs if they are mounted high enough since your legs are usually straight out. They are commonly blocked in other cars where your knees are bent closer to a right angle. Another benefit is that our cars are very long yet short in height. This allows for an almost equal pathlength between kick panel speakers and front seat passengers without sacrificing the height of the soundstage too much.
All I know is that I had a huge smile on my face right after I mounted my Infinity Kappa's in some custom kicks, and that was BEFORE I did any tuning.

Even still a good set of speakers mounted anywhere except the dash will probably sound pretty good. I don't think the best speaker in the world will overcome our dash locations....

 

Hrm, I'd say my kappa plates sound about as good as my friends perfect 5.1's in his ford ranger...

why does everyone hate the dash location so much?

maybe my auto time-alignment helps out with the problem you guys always talk about.

 

Time-alignment and extra tuning available with some of the higher end head units makes a huge difference.

I hate dash speakers ever since I put Pioneer 4x6's in there. Midbass is distorted, midrange is ear piercing, just crap overall even at medium listening levels. This may be mostly due to the harsh Pioneer tweets and as much with the location, but the music was unacceptable. Anything that fires into the glass will sound unnatural and have poor imaging.
As far as Kappa plates being better than Perfect 5.1's, I would have to hear it to believe it....

 

I said 'about' as good... I tend to think that the tweets are too harsh when they are pointed right at your ears.

I can also say I've heard some cars with 4x6's up front that really sound like crap... I just wouldn't say that kappa plates would sound distorted or anything to that extent...

I also don't understand the whole imaging problem. What exactly is the ideal imagining 'experience'? In my firebird, the system is set up so I hear the left channel out of the front driver speaker, and the right channel appears to be playing from the middle of the dashboard, (so from my seat, they sound equally spaced from me)... I guess this is all due to Time Alignment... but wouldn't that be the best-case scenario? There is nothing that could ever possibly block your tweeters, and ALL of the sound is reflecting off the glass, right into your ears... just like our subwoofers reflect all that deep bass right off the glass.

 

Sub notes don't sound bad reflected off the glass. High frequencies bounce all over - some people like it, some don't.
I know the Infinity plates don't distort that much (sorry for the generalized comment, I didn't mean to include those speakers in particular), but they are also the top of the line 4x6 speaker. Most people won't spend that much for plates when you can get a decent component set for the same price (I actually paid less for my Kappa 50.5cs than most people paid for the Kappa plates - and I'm talking authorized retailers that offer full 3 year Infinity Kappa warranties). In my car, the left channel is on the far left of the dash, the right channel is on the far right side, and the center is almost directly in the middle of the dash, maybe 2-3" towards the side of the car where the listener is sitting. Considering I don't have a HU with all the hocus pocus (although that may be coming soon, we'll see), I'm pretty happy Really being happy with your stuff is all you can ask for.