Bebefouch

I know the importance of getting very good quality RCA's, therefore i'd pick up some from a very well known brand name. Does the brand name for power and ground wires make any difference at all? Could I go out and buy walmart brand stuff without sacrificing power or efficiency?

br()bert

wire is wire

Justins86bird

The more expensive wire has finer strands which make it easier to bend around corners.

Boomin Boy

i use welding cable...its much cheaper than regular power wire but its a bit hard to hide under the carpet at times.

btw you dont need to spend a whole bunch of money on good quality rcas, they're all pretty much the same...you can make your own for very cheap

demicon

I bought chepo ones from London drugs.. ol pyramid.

Didn't feel so guilty shortening them when they were too long.

:P

work like a charm.

One thing Pyramid seems good for is accessories.. like connectors, wiring kits, RCS, etc.. things that can't be screwed up LOL

GarageToys

iTrader: (6)

You might check out eBay. I used the search term "amp kit". I bought a kit with the following: (1) 25FT RCA DIGITAL INTERCONNECT AUDIO CABLE, TRIPLE SHIELDED WITH BUILT-IN REMOTE TURN ON WIRE AND RIGHT ANGLE ENDS FOR A TRICK INSTALL.
(1) 4 GAUGE 20 FT RED POWER CABLE (HIGH QUALITY)
(1) 4 GAUGE 4 FT SUPER GOLD GROUND CABLE
(1) 35FT OF 12 GAUGE SPEAKER CABLE
(1) 20FT BLUE REMOTE TURN ON WIRE 16 GAUGE
Water resistant Fuse Holder
AGU Fuse included
2 Ring Terminal, 4Ga. ID:5/16"
2 Spade terminal, 4Ga. ID: 10#
5 Spade terminal, 14-16GA. ID: 8#
2 Butt.Conn. 14-16GA, red
1 Butt.Conn. 4GA, red
3 Self-tapping Screws
20 Cable Ties, 6"
5 black grommets

The price with shipping was about $25.00. I thought that was a good deal.

Damien00677

What about for say 4 awg wire. What is a good price per foot?

Kj Rockz

yupz

br()bert

4 ga wire from homedepot $4 for 12 feet, thats how much mine was, they have red or green color, i got green

ddn69

yup wire is wire

Nate

onebadwagon

wire is NOT wire, but at this level of systems, for the most part, it doesnt make a flip.

in the same diameter of wire, there can be large current flow characteristics, having to do with things like strand count and the way it's woven.


adam

TomP

Adam, wasn't the theory of "skin effect" (the theory about electrons flowing easier over thinner strands) just for AC current? And DC uses surface area, of which, a solid wire has the most surface area?

(For those I just confused, remember that speaker outputs are AC current... amp power/ground is DC)

As to the original question, I prefer buying power wire that's meant for car audio. But the most important wires are your preamp cords (aka "rca's" aka "patch cords"). Don't go cheap on those!! It'll ruin your whole system. And never run the power wires down the car next to the preamp cords.

Boomin Boy

a wire with many smaller strands would have more surface area over one single strand

onebadwagon

beat me to it.



adam

NEEDAZ

Tom, you’re kinda right about skin effect. A thinner wire will have less self-inductance. But it’s not really an issue till you get into really high frequencies, like RF. At 150MHz some corrosion on the surface of an antenna will just start to make a measurable difference in performance, at 440MHz it will make a noticeable difference. But skin affect means that at those high frequencies the electrical energy flows on the suffuse (skin) of the wire. Not better in thin wire. Check here: http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-033/_4923.htm
A higher strand count wire is a good thing, With a higher stand count you can get more copper in the same space (or cross section of wire) because there is less space wasted in the little gaps between the stands.
I’ve never hear a goods explanation of how the way it’s woven would have an effect on current flow characteristics and I can’t think of a way it would make a difference. Adam, do you have a link to someplace that has a good explanation of this. I’ve heard this before but never been able to back it up.

onebadwagon

a tighter weave "SHOULD" mean more resistance, if i'm not mistaken.



adam

NEEDAZ

I would think a tighter weave would have a lower resistance, more copper in a given cross section.? Aneone else?

TomP

Oops, my bad. I was thinking about DC- if what they're saying is the skin effect is only for AC, then DC's best carrier is a solid wire (b/c there's no skin effect).

At least that's what I've gotten out of that theory stuff anyway.

Here's a hell of a link that I found... from some old messages dated 2003 ... http://www.coloradok5.com/forums/sho.../o/all/fpart/1

The only reason I could think of a tighter weave having higher resistance would be a cooling effect; with less air, there'd be less cooling, so the wire might heat up- which increases resistance. That's probably a hell of a lot easier to prove on a thin wire than an 8 gauge!

onebadwagon

i was thinking because the current would travel further per foot.

i COULD be stupid.

NEEDAZ

A little more on topic for Bebefouch, use welder cable and you’ll be golden. The rest of this discussion is more for fun, anyone would be hard pressed to be able to show the vary small difference that all this other stuff would play in. Would all of this make a difference, probably? Would you notice the difference, probable not?

Now, where is Jim’s input on this?

GarageToys

iTrader: (6)

As a follow-up to my earlier post praising the cheap wire on eBay--- well, guess what? Once again I learn the hard way that you get what you pay for.

My "4 gauge" power & ground cables are really 6 gauge in a very thick plastic coating (so they appear to be 4-gauge until you look at the end)

GarageToys

iTrader: (6)

That's no problem for me, because 6ga will work fine for my application.

The (supposedly 12 ga) speaker wire, however, is crap. It looks like monster cable when you look at it from the side, but when you look at the end you see that it is 16 gauge wire in the thickest plastic covering I've ever seen. What a rip.

(look at the very center of the pic just to the right of the twist-tie-- the end is sticking up towards the camera)

GarageToys

iTrader: (6)

The real ripoff is that the wire actually says 12ga on it (and the power cable says 4ga). The picture above makes it look larger than it is. Believe me, I used my wire strippers on the end of it and it aint what it says it is!

And look at the cheapo pre-packaged dollar store box it all came in. Oh well, live and learn.

ScrapMaker

Wal-Mart sells real 4AWG complete amplifier kits for around $20... The only difference in RCA's that I can find is that the more expensive stuff has more plastic... so when its gets pinched you dont ruin the actual wire.

learsieglerZ'83

This is true from a point of view of most, if now all of the people on TGO, with some exceptions obviously. using equiptment like rockford and pioneer you will not need to use a $600 set of RCAs, and yes there are more expensive. When you start getting into using equiptment with stats that would blow your mind, .005 THD on my buddies Brax for example, and when you have more money into the install it self than the equiptment and car is worth, then you should be looking into getting a high quality wire. Im using a very nice Zapco amp on my focal tweeters and when i switched from **** *** monster cable RCAs to my Stinger Dream series RCAs, there was a huge change in what i was listing to. I know absolutly none of that back ground hissing, which i think alone was worth the $60 i spent on the cable. So to conclude my essay......wire is not wire, if your into SQ car audio.

learsieglerZ'83

PS..... 3rd product fromt he top...the RCAs. http://www.e-speakers.com/products/supra-cables.html

ScrapMaker

If you get some decent RCA's... what is the little wire that comes off of the rcas? Is that a ground? or a ground-loop isolator or something like that? I was thinking of hooking it up... I have a *slight* whine in my amp, but I can probably fix it by re-grounding everything.

Boomin Boy

some rcas come with a remote wire already run in them...this wire doesnt need to be very big

CAMp3RO

now this is gonna be the only time i recommend anything from walmart' stereo section (besides their metra install stuff). they've got 4ga wiring kits for around $25. 20 or 25 ft of 4ga power, fuse holder, remote wire, rca's (junk, but they work), and anything else to install an amp. best price you'll find, seeing as anything from ebay has additional shipping....

ScrapMaker

wow that's really a good idea for the remote wire! I didn't actually notice that damned wire until the other day... But it didn't matter because I ran all my wires at the same time.... plus I don't want ANY 12volt power running near my RCA... (you have power interference)....

It becomes a pain in the *** when you have as many rcas as me...

front out
rear out
NF out
aux in
cd/aux in

I hooked up the aux, and cd/aux because I was planning on doing surround sound in the future, and my deck supports "dual zone" which you can make surround sound with.

br()bert

Yes but were talking about power and ground wire here not rdc's. So as far as power and ground wire goes i dont think someone should go buy "brand name" wire because most likely your getting ripped.

3gc

I bought a $90 4 awg installation kit from a local car audio place when I had my stereo in my Camaro, but when i put it in my winter beater I bought a $17 kit off ebay and it didn't sound as good. The wire in the $90 kit felt and looked to be far superior quality, and the wire strans were much smaller.

learsieglerZ'83

If you believe the fact that "you get what you pay for" when you put parts into your engine.....why wouldnet you believe that you get what you pay for with power and ground wires??? Different wires do carry the current differently, a quality wire will carry the current better than your cheep-o walmart kit will.

Boomin Boy

im telling you people....welding cable is the answer...its cheap and will carry lots of current. just isnt as pretty as some other wires

br()bert

exactly! Were talking wire, Count the strands if you like, go to homedepot and you can find the same wire size with the same strands for much, much less. Only diff is it doesnt have the fancy candy apple plastic coating or some manufacts name printed on it.
Just the other day i was in bestbuy getting a dvd and i walked to the car audio section (like i always do, the "tech people" they have are idiots) and this kid was buying a (RF amp power wire with fuse holder) it came with a 12' 4 ga wire and a fuse holder, thats it. FOR $80!!!!
Sometimes i wonder wtf people are smoking!

CAMp3RO

i'm sorry guys, but the idea that one 4ga wire carries a DC signal different than another is just flat wrong. skin effect has nothing to do with your power wire, neither does it have to do with any wire carrying an audio signal (be it interconnects or speaker wires). the most important things to look for in power wire is flexibility (meaning higher strand count) and a jacket that is resistant to possible underhood chemicals (which 99% of wiring kits and welding cable are). strand count only deals with flexibility. oxygen-free copper strands is better because its supposed to resist corrosion better, but its necessity is almost debatable. oh, and most cables contain OFC anyway, so another thing to not really worry about. if 2 different cables carry power from your battery to your amps differently, then one of those two cables is broken.

br()bert

Oxygen oxidizes(sp?) the copper. Ever look at new copper pipes? Nice and shiny, then take a look at some old ones.

CAMp3RO

understandable. but if a section of copper wire is covered by its jacket, is there much (if any) oxygen getting to it? i have played with my father's stereo thats older than i am (30+ yrs), and the only part of the cable thats been affected is all of 1/2" from where its been stripped......

br()bert

Yeah that used to happen on my old house stereo too, like every three months id strip a new section of wire.

I think is more of a marketting gimmick, print a logo on a shiny thick wire coating and all of a sudden people think its better.

I rewired my whole house, i have no gas service, EVERYTHING is electric. I dont remember using any shiny red cable anyplace. Just an assorment (sp?) of ga wires that were all dull and stiff. For power, wire is wire as long as you get the correct size.

CAMp3RO

oh, and i feel like i gotta reply to the rca comments left earlier too. the only thing that your rca's should be doing in your home or car besides sending music from your preamp to your power amp is rejecting noise. not coloring the sound, etc. a decently made one (you can make top quality ones at home for under $50 too) will not change the sound. again, if it does, its broken.

the mentality is that if i spend $1000 on a system, $100 doesnt seem to be a bad investment on wiring. if i spend $10,000 on a system, $1000 for wiring seems feasible. how much can truely change between a $50 cable and a $500 cable? get cables that are flexible, properly shielded (when necessary), soldered well and correctly, and maybe even look pretty. there are plenty of measurable specs, but they should never be audible if properly constructed.

can anyone tell i've become more of a DIY audio guy.....(having fun yet Jim?)

Fei

I may be mistaken but don't electrons only run on the outside of a wire like a train? therefore wouldn't having more wire per sq/cm be better? Also wouldn't an oxygen free evviroment be better for a wire since electricty and oxygen will cause oxydation to form quicker?

NEEDAZ

We already went over this, rear the whole thread.

Only at higher frequencies. Not with DC and at a higher frequency the audio.

Even with cheep wire after years you’ll only get oxidation at the vary end of the wire and maybe an inch or two into/under the insulation. No big thing. Most of us will rewire/have a new system well before it’s a problem. And then the biggest problem is cutting the wire back past the corrosion and you lose an inch or two.

TomP

EXACTLY- don't use that wire as a remote wire! Snip the ends off, ground the ends, or just let 'em hang- but don't run +12 thru it! Last I checked, a 30 foot roll of 18 gauge wire was $3 at the local auto store.

ScrapMaker

but if I was a lazy car audio installer, and I had a ground-loop isolator, then I could use that little combined remote wire. Then I could call myself an expert and write a book on car audio.

junkyarddog

First off, what is the difference between power and ground wiring?

I had a guy at a stereo shop tell me that he was out of ground wire, so I would have to come back in two days....
I said, "that's ok, I'll take 20ft of that 'clear blue' 8awg..."

he said.."That's only for the positive wire, we use the black wire for the ground".....

There is no 'power wire' infact, electrons flow from the negative side of a DC circuit....but that's besides the point.




If you get what you pay for, then I have a huge bundle of 4awg welding cable I'll sell you for $200. I think it's about 50 feet.

Do you realize how much audio shops mark up thier merchanidise?

I can make a great pair of RCA's with a drill, 18awg or similar wire, a soldering iron and a set of RCA plugs. or ordinary shielded wiring.

Camaro_nut

I would have to agree here too! I have used Monster Cable,
Road Gear,Scorche, etc. All work fine to me! I have used all
kinds of amps. THAT'S where it makes the difference!

Wire is wire. As long as it's routed properly, you will have
no problems!

Also, Power and Ground wire are the same! Just use
different colors to determine which one goes where!
You can use red for ground and black for power, as long
as it's connected right! All ground wire does is complete
the path of resistance in the circuit. Point A to point B.
You can use either colors. But it would make sense to
at least use red for power to not get confused.


As far as quality of wire goes, the CONNECTIONS are
more important than the wiring itself. Using platinum
or gold plated connectors hold up better than regular
bare metal connectors. But, 99% of amp kits and RCA
kits are already plated with gold or platinum.

CAMp3RO

platinum is actually pretty bad for connections (only about 1/2 as good as copper), but people like bling bling, so......

but i digress

ScrapMaker

speaking of bling bling, did you guys catch the thread of those "Krunk" subwoofers?

br()bert

Yeah i posted it, i still cant believe they are actually made! They look like such a joke

Camaro_nut

Huh, I didn't know. Thanks for correcting that. So, the
gold plated would be best. That's like on every kit that
I had bought. I hate "bling". The sound of the stereo is
better than the way the system looks. But to some people,
they like the neon lights and all that crap.