Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Yes they do!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAOce...ature=youtu.be

akanitro

iTrader: (2)

Yes!!! The factory definitely fell short on that aspect.

mike_c

iTrader: (13)

Ahh, yes. I've smoked the stockers more than a few times. Ditching them was one of the best things I've done to the car.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

They were only smoking ater I parked the car and grabbed the cam, it was much much worse before...I thought I had blown a heater hose, that much smoke but the stench revealed immediately it had to be the pads. I lost the front brakes completely.

kmcn47

those don't look stock to me you have drilled slotted rotors i notice for one, couldn't see your calipers

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You need those cross drilled brake lines!

kmcn47

and i know the stock brakes are nothing spectacular, but making them smoke isn't either, hell you can make any brakes smoke if you try hard enough, Jeremy Clarkson killed the carbon ceramic brakes on the new Aventador at Imola

IROCtheRoad

Cross drilled and/or slotted rotors will only go so far with keeping the pads from getting to hot and SS brake lines have nothing to do with keeping the pads cool.

The point is the tiny stock setup was barely built to stop the car under normal driving. I've smoked my front brakes with a very small spirited run on some back roads.

This is why people upgrade their brakes so quickly - along with subframe connectors (for different reasons, obviously).

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Dude, this happened after 2!! minutes of driving, maybe a couple miles in total. Test driving the car whilst working on a tune. All it took was a couple of stops and 1 stop from 200km/h down to 0 to destroy the brakes. Barely got it to stop on the T section. Had to limp it to the shop because I lsot the fronts completely. This is the smoke after I limped it back, parked it and grabbed the cam. They were smoking like a blown radiator hose would smoke. Pedal went all the way to the floor. These things are JUNK!!!

I was posting just as a sort of heads up. This isn't even my car, it's my buddies 92 GTA. I have 13" brakes on my camaros.

These things are dangerous. There's a big difference between making them smoke and getting yourself killed because on a single hard stop they fail immediately.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Not a brake expert but if you brakes are smoking after just a couple miles and a few stops there may be something wrong with them other than being stock.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Want to know what's wrong? too little rotor mass to decrease mean braking temps, too little diameter for proper brake torque, small pad size. Combine those and you have a recipe for disaster. There is nothing functionally wrong with these brakes, they just don't slow down from high speeds without issues. Even stock they are barely adequate.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The stock brakes are simply too small to dissipate heat well.

Drilled and slotted arent really recommended for street cars, or even race cars usually. Race cars will run slotted just to help keep the pads clean, but theyre nowhere near as dramatic as what the aftermarket brake companies churn out:







http://www.clublexus.com/forums/atta...ems-rotors.pdf

For a street car drilled and slotted just means a higher chance of a warped and/or cracked rotor and shorter brake pad life. Cross drilled/slotted rotors are mostly just for looks anyway. Most racing brakes these days are only slotted, and barely. The drilled holes were for old brake pads that used to outgas. Modern pads dont do this. Unnecessary.

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main...products_id=39

Imola is a circuit with almost NO high high speed sweepers. EVERYTHING is wide open throttle or hard braking. 20 years ago it was nothing but high speed sweepers but now it's just a bunch of straightaways and chicanes. It's not at all surprising that he was able to overheat street car brakes on a racetrack, regardless of how fancy the material is.

kmcn47

i know all about imola, R.I.P ayrton, and as stated if after only minutes of driving his brakes were smoking, something is wrong, i drive my car atleast 50 miles daily my brakes aren't constantly on fire, twin turbo did you clean the rotors before you installed them, they'll smoke like that if you dont.

and i'd still like to know what pads/calipers/rotors said car had, form what i can see in the vid none of it looks stock, and vortex your right, all the aggressively drilled rotors do is add more bite when the pad is pressed to the rotor, and increase the chance of cracking the pad and damaging the brakes, stock machined rotors are perfectly fine for modern brake pads.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I did nothing to these brakes, they were on the car. They smokes a lot more, you can hear the hissing and popping in the vid from the bluid boiling and the pads being overheated.

I posted this as a little info to show how crappy stock brakes are.. Not to find guidance or help on how to stop it smoking I lost the brakes completely, that's why I wanted to show...these things are just downright dangerous if you want to reliably slow down from high speed.

The rotors are some kind of drilled setup, said to be brembos but I doubt it, probably cheap stuff. The caliper is just a red painted delco moraine original caliper.

kmcn47

i still maintain that something was up with his rotor/pad combo, as again i've driven my car hard,as i'm sure many of us have, and never made the fluid boil or the rotors smoke, seriously sounds like he botched something up whenever he fitted those aftermarket rotors and did his brakes

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Dude, I'm the only one working on this car..nothing is botched up!! How many times do you do 200km/h and brake to a full stop??? The brakes were fine before, they are junk now... nothing changed on the car. Those aftermarket rotors have been on there for years, back when it still had the stock engine & drivetrain.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Our stock brakes can barely handle an autocross. The guys that go quick at the quarter mile will tell you the stock brakes cant handle much of that either.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I knew they sucked I figured I'd provide some media to show how much they suck but all I get is second guessing and people telling me something's ****ed or the stock brakes are fine. Should have not posted this.

Swapping to 13s and that'll be the end of this. More stock brakes for the attick, they can rest in pieces along with the 5 others sets up there

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I think a lot of know you were trying to make a point. And I couldn't agree more. Its scary you can fade the brakes on one stop.

A brake kit is the best thing you can do on these cars, even stock.

kmcn47

so let me get this straight you went to 200km/h and then killed the brakes to a dead stop, to **** them up on purpose, and then said they sucked, because when you deliberately caused them to fail, because its funny to you? you know you could redline the engine till you blew it up, I think that was pretty damn funny to ya know you should try it to prove how much the stock engines sucked, your logic makes no sense to me, its like saying "yeah that vault door sucked it opened right up after i blew it off the hinges" this was a really pointless thread. makes me think of those idiot hicks who go and thrash cars and then show them all ****ed up and say "hey man look what we did ya her ya her ya her der der der" didn't think they had those in the netherlands guess you learn something new everyday

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I don't understand this response. These are sports cars. They should be capable of all day flogging at the track and then drive it home. The fact that you can't even do one single high speed stop without fading the brakes is downright dangerous. Twin_Turbo correctly points out that if you really want to have fun with these cars, you need to upgrade the brakes. His example merely puts what we have all been saying for years into evidence that is a bit more obvious.

Are you suggesting we should all just drive around like an old lady?

kmcn47

i'm not saying anything other then pushing something past its breaking point and then saying it is bad because you cant use your brakes without using them up is asinine, drive like an old lady? no drive like you value having a license and don't want your car to end up around a tree? i see no problem with that, where exactly did he do this 200kph high speed turn and then abruptly stop, because if it was anywhere but a test track, hes admitted to breaking the law in case your math is flawed that's 124.274 mph idk anywhere but the autobahn that that is legal because there isn't an autobahn in the netherlands. now if he chooses to kill himself driving like an *** in someone elses car which has had a bad brake job done thats fine he can do it, but i don't want anyone to blame the brakes for his incompetent driving, funny how he doesn't show himself driving the car or what he really may have done, show me smoking brakes okay you cooked em there ****ed, tell me it was one high speed corner? 0.o how stupid do you think i am? and this car isn't stock its got an aftermarket brand of rotor probably made of a cheaper lower quality iron (chinese perhaps) and badly designed causing a pad failure (noone knows what shape the pads were in before, or wether or not they were a quality pad thats intended use is hard driving) and your saying oh hey this sucks, yeah you drove like an *** and destroyed your friends brakes that does suck, i'd never let you near my car. say whatever you want this is still a pointless thread, and if his point is to prove that the stock brakes cant handle high speed (illegal) driving then thats fine they weren't designed to, but dont go and say oh the factory sucked and designed the car badly because you ****ed your car up, don't blame mcdonalds if you get fat, now a detailed write up on taking a car with the stock brakes through say a slalom course or an autocross track, taking pictures and measurements of the amount of material left on the pad after the course compared to before the course, then swapping the brake setup to the way overhyped (imo) and overdone ls1 brake setup and doing the same course and taking the same measurements and even pad rotor caliper and brake fluid temperatures and saying something like "while the stock brakes performed adequately the "ls1" style brake system outperformed it" by whatever measure you deem so that would be okay but an 18 second video of smoke coming form someone elses car as your claim that the stock brakes "suck" well excuse me for doubting both you and the credibility of your evidence, you cant even provide us with all the information on the brake setup the car had and you expect everyone to agree "oh yeah there **** i spent 500 dollars on better brakes i never use because i hardly drive my thirdgen" well sorry mine work fine i've been to high speeds in my car and didn't jump on the brakes for no reason, so mine still work perfectly fine and i drive it through town, on the interstate, sometimes quickly when i have the time to go out and enjoy cornering spiritedly on a nice road but i don't push the car and farther then i know it can go, so what i'm saying is the brakes don't suck, Twin_Turbo sucks for driving like an *** "for a tune" no tune on the planet has anything to do with how fast the car can go from 125 to 0 its always the other way around. and because this thread is pointless i hope it gets deleted it serves no purpose, it presents no information.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I stopped after reading the first two sentences of that sillyness.


I know I had my 92 Z28 to over 135mph on local roads

my 94 to 173

Save your law preaching for something else.

The stock brakes arent very good, people should upgrade them, theend.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

What? Have you ever been on a road course? The entire purpose is to go down a straight as fast as possible, stand on the brakes, go around a turn as fast as possible, repeat... These are sports cars, and this is how they are used. The stock brakes won't last more than two corners. Very sad.

Jeffs82TA

iTrader: (1)

4th gens aren't much better. I can't smoke my 97's but they fade fast after 3 hard braking events and it has much better brakes for the most part over a 3rd gen. Mine is just a 6 cylinder so not worried about a brake upgrade since it is just a daily grocery getter and commuter car. With all the china rotors out there which my car has now I find the braking less efficient then when it was new even with new rotors and pads.

88 5.7 Iroc-Z

dude, no need to call Twin_turbo any names, that's just childish.... I can vouch for the horrible brake fade at those speeds, was going 120 in my car when I had to slam the brakes and they were only good enough to slow me down to about 70mph, after that they just felt like they were gone, the discs came out of that experience with a nice blue line in them. The new LS1 brakes on the other hand, seem to resist fade quite a bit better then the old Delcos could when driving spiritedly. I just wish I had some 18's instead of 17' so that i could of gone with the SS Brembos. I've driven an SS and let me tell you, for being such a pig of a car, those brakes slow the 5th gens down QUICK

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

No, I was testing the car to make sure the engine didn't lean out @ WOT w/ the d1sc kicking in and if one keeps ones foot on it for a little while it's not hard to reach those speeds however at some point you will have to do some braking. Brakes should be able to stop a car properly, even at those speeds.

So you are calling me a hick huh/

Nelz

The delco morraine brakes have almost the same caliper piston area as LS1 brakes. The problem is they just don't cool off as fast because they are iron calipers instead of Aluminum PBR's.

Unfortunately, to make those calipers work-at those speeds and at the track, you need to fab up some brake cooling ducts from cheap 3" heater hose from Home Depot or Lowes and direct it towards the center of the caliper and at the caliper itself. (2 hoses per side). You can either slot some holes in the air dam or find somewhere else near the front of the car to direct air into the hose and zap strap everything in place. (Or switch to Aluminum PBR LS1's, but if you've run cooling ducts to the stock brakes, you can probably just re-use the plumbing to the LS brakes if the brake cooling doesn't solve the stock Delco Morraine problem.) The cheap trick is to plumb cooling ducts towards the brakes. Unfortunately, iron retains more heat than aluminum.

Thank you for posting that video, it's very interesting. You can see the guy had drilled rotors. I'm wondering what brand pads he had.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Making all kinds of assumptions..is there something wrong with you? Starting to pick a fight over nothing?

Told you, the rotors are brembos, the pads are stock delco pads.

It's a GERMAN car! DAMN!!

Could it REALLY be this was in Germany? Nah, can't...I live in the Netherlands and Germany is half a continent away.

You make assumptions but don't have any info so you are all wrong.

As for the LS1 upgrade, I have that on the gray camaro, it will brake down from high speeds to 0 all day any day, I have yet to have the pads fade. Granted, it's got better pads & better rotors although baer rotors aren't really suited for track use either. They do work fine.

Nelz

too little rotor mass to decrease mean braking temps <--True. Stock DM brakes = 10.5" and 1.04" thickness. LS1's=11.92" and 1.26" thickness.

too little diameter for proper brake torque<--Debatable. Piston caliper surface area on DM brake = 4.43sq. inch. (with 1 piston.) LS1=4.81" (w/ 2 pistons)

Small pad size. <--True. Pads that are longer, wider, and thicker dissipate the heat better, and you will get longer pad life.

You can compensate to a degree with brake cooling, higher boiling point brake fluid, rotors and better pads (those stock AC Delco pads are certainly not the best for 200KM-0 stops, but with more friction from better pads also comes more HEAT which can boil the fluid and degrade the piston seal starting at around 300 deg. F. The Blue Hawk Pads are still on the top of my list for DM caliper upgrades as they don't fade as bad or as soon, but they still produce a lot of HEAT) but at a certain point you've got to go to a bigger brake package unless you are racing in a class that dictates stock brakes.

It's hard to fight the laws of physics. The DM caliper was designed in the 60's and I think GM still used them up to the 2000's Cavalier/Sunfire (don't quote me on that.) The Heat is the problem. The LS1's don't need as much cooling to work. The DM's need a lot of cooling to work in racing as you're compensating for an older/inferior design (It wasn't inferior in the 60's when everything was drum brakes! Technology moved on and 15" rims didn't allow a bigger caliper/rotor in the 60's, 70's and early 80's.) But the third gen Camaro was designed in the 70's and produced starting in 1982. They were essentially using up old inventory in terms of parts initially and this included the millions of Delco Morraine calipers (and the car was initially designed with 15" rims which meant the 10.5" rotors.) It wasn't until the Canadian Players Challenge races that the 1LE's came out. (That racing series using showroom stock cars showed the flaws of the Delco Morraine brakes. They allowed stainless steel and braided brake lines on DM brakes to help the brakes before GM made prototype 1LE's for those production race cars and then sold 1LE's to the public.)

The DM brakes were ok for 1982 considering they powered Camaro's with less than 200HP. The 1LE's were better for 1988/89. The LS1's were great for 1998 and are still ok now, but not as good as the new 14" Brembos or the 6 piston Cadillac CTS-V brakes. Time has moved on. Wheels got bigger allowing bigger rotors to be installed. Engines got more HP requiring better brakes.

So yes, the DM brakes suck. They were passed on by progress and time. If you do enough research from old Hot Rod Magazines though, people did get them to work in certain classes of racing. But that was before LS1 brakes were invented. They made the best of what came from the factory and they did make it work ok.

https://www.thirdgen.org/hotrod-shoo...amaro-july1982

The brake test was from 128KM-0 (80MPH-0). The stock brakes set up with the harder spring in the proportioning valve and semi-metallic pads all around slowed the car in 291.33ft. That's a long stretch from 80MPH-0 in today's time, but back in 1982 it was considered performance.

https://www.thirdgen.org/hotrod-shoo...-prep-july1982

For COMPARISION's Sake.

http://www.4n6xprt.com/Braking_Effectiveness_at_Higher_Speeds.pdf

Look at the 80-0 test. The mean average is 217.39ft with a worst of 260ft using 2006/2007 cars.

In this article:
https://www.thirdgen.org/rt_october1...s_camaro_irocz

The 80-0 Brake test had the Camaro slowing down in 261ft. This would be with the stock DM brakes.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

As you point out, there are a lot of things working against the stock calipers.

Check you math. I get 4.91 in^2 for the stock 2.5" piston.

Do doubt pad volume is a problem. The stock pads are around 2.9 in^3 and the 4th gen / C5 / C6 is 4.1 in^3.

The rotor diameter is actually a huge factor. The larger the rotor the more natural torque the system has. So the less force is required by the pistons. The less force means less friction. Friction is heat. So now you have a system that is creating less heat, but is also capable of absorbing and rejecting it faster.

Nelz

I was using this table:
http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=333

But using your chart from my earlier thread your area calculations are correct as the area of a circle is (Pi x Radius) Squared.

But with the pad an irregular shape, how did you calculate the pad area?

I would argue component material plays a part.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Last time I checked the fluid side of the piston is 2.5". But I could be wrong.

I provided pad volume not area. Area is basically a useless dimension in this case. Pad volume is a commonly calculated parameter. I did not calculate them myself.

John

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Pad area directly reflects the surface area where energy transfer takes place. If you check what parameters affect brake force (foot pressure -> pedal ratio -> MC size -> line pressure -> piston size -> friction coeff. of pad material -> clamping force -> rotor diameter... did I forget any??) Pad size is not in there. Theoretically it is not however witha small pad energy transfer over a small surface area promotes pad fade, as such pad area is important.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

You forgot booster gain.

Pad volume should define the fade resistence and temperature of the pad, not the area. Its basically the heat capacity of the pad. Of course this is within reason. We aren't talking about a long and slender pad.

skiroulertx447

I didn't have time to read the whole thread but I will say this: my car with stock brakes in front and pbr rears with a wilwood adj valve has stopped just fine on the street. After some spirited driving I can feel that there hot but it still stopped good. I'm still upgrading to C5 brakes though...

OP, are you still running the stock prop valve?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Yes, what is wrong with the original 4 disc prop valve? I ahve that one on all my cars and the oens with the upgraded brakes stop fine. **** adjustable prop valves and line lockers are outlawed here.

paul_huryk

Stock brakes suck (really suck if you have pre 89 PBR rear calipers) due to the small pads, one piston iron calipers, and very small pads, end of story. Drive them on the street like a normal car and they work well - try to race them and you get very little performance out of them. GM had the right idea to use a 12" 2 piston front system on their 1LE cars as the "factory" 10.5" system would have been toast in a lap or three.

Considering it can cost a lot for new 10.5" rotors, pads, calipers, and brake hoses for a brake service; it makes sense to upgrade any 3rd gen to a 12" or larger system. Except for possible wheel clearance problems, it is straightforward these days and offers great return on your investment.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

To put the pad size into perspective. Here is a picture of the stock pad, vs the Wilwood FSL (and others) 7420 pad, and the big CTS-V Brembo pad. Can you guess which one is the stock pad? While the pad area of the Wilwood pad is similar to stock, it is almost double the thickness.

Homer23

Considering that these cars are 20-30 years old, who would expect the brakes to be good in stock form anymore? I would bet that an 82-92 Porsche 911 would have below average brakes, especially due to technological advances.

For people that don't want to go the expensive Brembo/Wilwood conversion, you can upgrade part by part until everything is a performance part without breaking the bank or LS1/C5 conversions that people already mentioned.

Performance brake fluid is usually lost in the mix of upgrades.

Brake pad material is more important than size considering that OEM type of pad material will still fade under racing conditions.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Are you saying 20 years from now we will be talking about how crappy the 15.5" carbon ceramic brakes are on the ZR1??? I don't think so. The brakes were crappy when new and are still crappy today. Age is no excuse.

Upgrading the components of the stock system is an incredible waste of money. Short of installing track only high temp pads and quality fluid, what are you proposing?

kmcn47

i think hes saying that perhaps we'll be talking about how bad the brakes are on the base model or ss camaros today 20 years from now when we have titanium 24 piston calipers and the rotors are part of the rim so that there as large as possible already, or something else, maybe laser brakes or whatever they'll think of next, then again how would you stop a flying car haha, also http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hw...t/model/camaro are a great pad for if you like to drive your car fast and want to be able to stop but also drive it to work everyday

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

just wanted to chime in and say I found the stock brakes to be nothing spectacular, or even confidence inspiring, but not dangerous on the track.

Ran my '90 GTA 5.7 with the stock marines upfront and pbr's on rear. Front had new EBC discs and EBC red-stuff pads. Track was about 3miles long and pretty high speed (air field) and I recall hitting speeds of about 120-130mph down to 50mph and generally some pretty brutal braking.

Didn't do more than three laps at a time and pulling up on lap three the brakes stank! Lots and lots of heat but no major smoke I recall.

Pedal feel wasn't great and as the day went on I actually found the fronts having a tendancy to lock (esp. the front left) which was a littly scary.

now when I bought the car, the discs and pads were of unknown make (as in, I didn't check) and the discs were prominently lipped. Braking was atrocious! I went through a set of lights as the brakes were that bad! That setup on the track would've been a mess.

my point - pad compound and disc condition is a contributing factor here I think.

Nelz

20 years from now, we'll say the same about the 15.5" brakes as we say about the 12" HD C4 or LS1 brakes. They are ok, but not as good as the 14" Brembo's or CTS-V brakes.

I would add teflon braided brake lines and slotted rotors.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

There is no 12 inch hd c4 brake, the hd known as j55 are 13 inch. The only applucation of the wider j55 caliper (for 1.25 rotor vs .9 for 12 inch jl9) is the 12 inch 1le system

Nelz

Sorry, you're right. I was talking about the 88-96 C4 NON-HD 12"

8t2 z-chev

stock thirdgen brakes even look too small... I have 1981 porsche 928 also and it's brakes are pretty decent and look suitably sized for an early 80s era GT.

paul_huryk

Problem is that the larger brakes need larger wheels to fit them in - that is one reason why the new Camaro runs 20" tires and they have the same sidewall height as a 275-40-17 tire.

There is a major disconnect between the amount of braking force a new performance brake system and the amount of tire friction one can apply in a stop. The 60 to 0 stopping distance of elite cars has been stuck at about 100ft for over 10 years now due to this issue. Obviously newer systems resist fade and feature larger pads and more psitons - but don't stop all that much better. This is why more sophisticated ABS systems are needed - to control wheel lockup undr heavy braking.

When you have a 4100lb "performance car" like the Camaro SS, you need big brakes to haul it down. But you only need a 13" 4 piston kit in a 3500lb 3rd gen to do the same...

88camaroscv6

iTrader: (1)

looks like someone needs some ls1 brakes

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

It'll get C4 13" HD brakes, the problem is, it's a german car (are you reading this kmcn47???) and the TUV (sort of DOT) there has rules that apply to most anything on a car. One of them is, you can not change anything major without having to have it TUV certified (if you have a completely certified car with many mods your title will have so many addendums it's pages and pages long). For most euro crap cars you can buy parts with tuv certification, for us cars...not so much. If you do mod it you will have to get a new certiication for it, which costs major $$$$ (we all know that whining noise the D1SC makes really is an alternator bearing goig out...right?? LOL). This is the reason why this car has to be TUV tested biannually with the original, or original sized wheels. Nothing properly fits behind lace wheels, maybe a LS1/C5 caliper hybdrid deal with those 12.5 rotors and some spacer shims (I know that will fit if you take out the inner fenders on the earlier cars because a guy I know has this but the 90-92 fenders are different) so the only solution left is to have it tested rolling on some 16" IROCs that I have a couple of sets of lying around. The 13"C4 HD setup fits behind those wheels and it's so much better than what's on there now. I have used the J55 on C4 vettes to upgrade from their stock JL9, vast improvement. My 87 camaro (the red one) has this setup too. It's more than good enough. I agree the LS1 is a tad better but just a smidgen. It holds absolutely no candle to a modern big brake kit...or an old kit like this even (brembo setup for C4 corvette but it would bolt up to any F body w/ the C4 adapter bracket)