NightHawk84

anyone, please help...

I have an 84 TA. The break hard line broke right before it connects into the flex line which connects onto the break drum.
here's the problem:

i need the break hard line, union fittings to splice the new line and an AN fitting to connect back onto the flex line.

the AN fitting is too gummed up to save.

what is the size break hardline for an 84 TA ?? the mechanic says 1/4inch but the dealer says 6mm. I cannot find 6mm break line anywhere . it has to include the bubble flair that the fitting slides over.

also, i need a 6mm bubble flair sitting(or whatever is the correct size) to thread the hard line back into the flex line. no one sells these. not even EARL'S PERFORMANCE.

finally, i need union fittings to connect the splice of new line back to the hard line on the car.

i know i'm probably talking gibberish, but this has been going on for a week and a half.

i mean, this is an 84 pontiac... an american car. there must be a million cars with this set up between camaros, firebirds, and probably any other passanger car made between 82 and 92. why is this such a hard thing to fix??? it's not like this never happened to anyone before. the mechanic said 30min to fix when he gets the right parts.

what are the correct sizes and where can i find the parts??? part numbers would be great if possible. please help.

any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

Apeiron

Don't mess with unions and fittings and whatever else. Any parts store should have a suitable length of tubing with pre-flared ends that your mechanic can bend to replace the whole line from the wheel cylinder to the T.

NightHawk84

so, you're saying don't bother splicing anything?

that still leaves what size break line to buy 6mm or 1/4in (if either is right) and the AN fitting to go into the flex line (whichever size it is).

that is the real problem... what size line and what size AN fitting to use.

Apeiron

No, don't splice anything, replace the whole line. It doesn't matter what the tube size is as long as the flare and the nuts on the ends are correct. GM doesn't use AN flares on anything, so don't worry about that.

NightHawk84

what size are the nuts on the end? if not wrench size... thread size.

half of this is because the old nut is wasted and can't be reused. actually that is 99.9% of the problem. for some reason, a nut with the correct thread size to thread into the flex line has been rather hard to come by. the size is not known, and the local CarQuest and NAPA are no help. We even called SUMMIT and couldn't fined one. if that is the only hang up... sorry to keep asking, but i don't want to go back unprepared. like i said, this has been going on for a week and a half now.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

im a little lost with which line broke, you are saying that its the line between the drum and the "T" fitting, yet you mention 1/4" 6mm line, which would be the line from the front of the car to the end of the flex hose before the axle. If it is the line between the drum and the "T", do as Apeiron said, just buy a new pre-flared line and have it bent to fit.

Guest

The line size is neither 1/4" or 6mm. Nut size is useless as well, its the thread size and pitch that are of importance.

It may be metric, not positive what 84 used. If you can find a parts store employee with half a brain they can pull a wheel cylinder off the shelf and find an appropriate line to fit it. Its likely a bubble flare and quite possibly metric. The line in that case is 4mm, or 3/16. Doesnt much matter. The nut will come with the line itself, bubble flare, ready to go. The other end I suspect is inverted flare, and shouldnt be any unusual size. Anyplace that carries brake hard lines will have a variety of lines from 8" up to 5', with various end styles. At the worse you'd need an adapter from bubble-flare or vice versa and I know those are available. With the wheel cylinder and a brake hose in hand (or at least the spec book for the hose since most dont carry those), all you need is the length of the line from cylinder to hose.

http://www.plews-edelmann.com/brochu...cation_id=2517

Page 48. Your local store may have a different source than Edelmann but I dont know. There's more than one company making the same product.

If its the hard line before the axle, flare the line on the car, use a union, and one of the premade lines. You'll need to make one flared connection on the car and thats it. IIRC that connection is a normal inverted flare and I dont recall it being a 1/4" line either but measure what you've got. Its either that or 3/16" (most likely) so its easy to mic the difference.

NightHawk84

the line that broke is the hard line that runs down the body of the car. after the T in the rear. right before the flex line which goes into the wheel cylinder. it is the actual steel hard line.

the line IS metric... at least that is what i've been told. it IS a bubble flare.

what I am looking for is the thread size of the nut to go into the flex line. the flex line was taken to the local NAPA and CarQuest and the guys at the counter laughed like it doesn't exist.

this shouldn't be as hard as it is. i know this. it's not like this never happened to anyone before.

everything you all been saying makes perfect sense, and i thank you for it.

any other opinions are welcome.

Guest

Well I dont know of 1/4" anything in the brake system. It should be 3/16". So you broke off the nut that screws into the fitting on the end of the flex hose that goes to the rear axle, correct? Your description unfortunately is confusing. There's a single line on the body to the rear, a flex line from the body to the axle, and then 2 lines from the flex line T fitting to either side to the wheel cylinders. I'm not aware of any flex lines from hard lines to wheel cylinders.

If its the line on the body of the car, I thought that end was an inverted flare. If its bubble... get a standard length replacement line, 3/16", with bubble flare in whatever size comes on that line, and it should fit your flex line fine. If you're already being told its metric, get the metric line (only the nuts are actually metric). The only unusual size nuts used are up by the master cylinder. Have the mechanic cut off one end, flare it with an inverted flare and common nut size for 3/16" line, do the same on the car, and use a 3/16" inverted flare union.

Guest

Here's a picture. Pick a number

NightHawk84

it is either 1 or 3 (driver side rear). it is definately a solid steel line. if all the hard lines are 3/16, this shouldn't be a problem. I'm going to print this and give it to the mechanic. if anything else comes up... i'll post it. Thank you all for all of your help so far.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

1 or 3 ??!!??

which one is it 1 or 3? they are totally different parts. Look at the car and tell us which one it is.

If it is 3, a 3/16 line will be fine, if it is 1, its the larger size which should be 6mm and thats a larger project.

Ricco

If it is specifically drivers side rear then it has to be 3. 1 relates to both sides IMO..

Edit : Why is 1 6mm and 3 is 3/16 ? why not use either metric OR imperial, why mix and match?

Apeiron

The metric and imperial sizes of the tubing itself are close enough that they're interchangeable. It's the flaring of the end that matters.

Guest

He may not be sure himself which it is. My guess would be the car went in for a brake job, had to have wheel cylinders replaced, and resulted in a busted line. Just a guess.

Ricco

So how do you tell what is what? I am currently stripping my car down but when i put it back together, i plan on installing all new fuel and brake lines but really not sure right now what i need in terms of fittings - Metric/imperial line, metric/imperial flare nuts, double versus bubble or is it a metric bubble flare.. Is there anywhere that lists the fittings used?

Apeiron

As far as brakes are concerned, SAE sizes were only used in 82 and 83. Everything after that is metric bubble flare.

Automatic transmission cooler lines are all 5/16" I.F. Fuel lines for TPI use O-ringed Saginaw fittings.

Ricco

Thanks, that is helpful info. Sooo.. All i need to know is the wrench size i used to undo the flare nuts and i am golden right?

NightHawk84

ok, i'm back and i got the EXACT info.... first some background...
the line broke while i was driving... not because of replacing wheel cylinders.

now the broke line is:

line 1 <86TA>. it is the main line that runs down the body and connects into the proportioning valve. it IS the 6mm. id DOES have the bubble flare. I just got back from Pep Boys and they don't have anything... why is this such a hard thing to find? where can I find it? please help!!

Apeiron

You won't find it because any real mechanic knows how to repair it, or replace it using bulk line. If your guy can't figure it out and you don't want to find someone that can, you can order a new pre-bent line from Fine Lines or Classic Tube.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

you can buy a replacement line from Finelines, and i believe classictube has them as well, and you can get a new one in stainless so it will never rust.

Problem is , they are a beotch to install because of the length and the bends, you will probably have to remove the trans crossmember to get everything in and fish it up around the steering.

Or, you can but 1/4" brake line in a roll and run some of that from the front to back, but then you will have to reflare the lines and use the old nut, or if its shot, try to find a new one. This is how i original fixed mine when it blew, it looked like hell but it worked. I now have all new stainless lines from Finelines, and they fit pretty well.

NightHawk84

the nut is shot. the end of the line is rusted into it. i only need about 18 inches of 1/4" line. as long as Finelines or classictube has lines that are pre bubble flared and come with the nut, i'm good.

finding a new nut is proving to be difficult as well. i'll check those sites as well as edlemann which madmax recommended.

Apeiron

I still have to ask though, if this guy is a mechanic why are you having to figure this out?

NightHawk84

to be honest...

the garage was owned by a guy i took my TA and my wife's car to for all maintenance... inspections, repairs, etc... for about 4 years. he treated me good. let me slide with a few things for the TA's inspection as long as they weren't dangerous and i got them fixed before the next inspection was due.

about a month ago, it was sold to another guy, a new guy. my wife's rack and pinion went literally the day after the garage was sold. he did an ok job with that, but the place is far from my new house and i was going to find a closer garage.

low and behold, driving to work last Wednesday 9/19/07 my break line blew. this garage is close to where i work, about a mile from where i park. (i drive a half hour to work). I wasn't going to drive home without power breaks because that would be too much of a risk for me. so, i called this garage and asked to drop it off as an emergency. he said ok, so i did.

that friday, comming home from work, i seen the car moved from where i parked it at the garage. i stopped in to see if it was done because i didn't want to go home, here that the car was done, drive all the way back and pay for it when i just passed the place.

that is when he told me he can't find the size breakline or nut. he said he went to CarQuest and NAPA, even called a chevy dealer and they had no idea what he was talking about. he even brought in the broke piece. I told him to check Summitt or Year One, Jegs, etc. I checked in this past tuesday and was told no one carries 1/4" bubble flare tubing and metric nut.

being i am a supervisor where i work (hospital lab) and i've been on this marry-go-round before, when I had my engine swap done, I realized the old saying "if you want something done right you got to do it yourself". so, i know you guys are great. you've all helped me out with many questions and opinions through out the years. so you all were the first place I turned to. and again it paid off. so far anyway.

long story short, i can't move the car easily to another garage. and even if i do, who's to say the next guy won't say the same thing. i figure, i know what to do as far as finding the part. I guess i have better resourses and since it is MY car... more drive to get things done right with the right part, no matter where i have to look to find it. i just can't install it. I know theory and diagnostics, but don't ask me to do major mechanical work. I'm good for changing oil, lubing, small stuff like that. the most major thing i've done was replace the window wiper motor and some weather stripping. I'll change a V belt but not an S belt.

i don't intend on ever going back to this garage again. i hope the next one i pick isn't scam ridden either. it's hard to find a good, honest mechanic these days.

Guest

Ok I checked my car (86 TA) and... it is a 1/4" line. *makes mental note*

I see the problem. The nut is 12mm, likely 1.0 pitch. I cant remember if the inverted flare nuts are the same as the bubble flare nuts. I *think* they are. If it is, you can get an Edelmann 6312ST or equivalent (thats a 1/4" / 6mm line with 10mm-1.0 nut, both ends, 12" long. They also make longer ones if need be), cut off one end (tubing cutter needed), take the nuts off, throw the larger nut on, put a 1/4" inverted flare nut on the other end, double flare that line (flaring tool needed). Cut the line on the car, put a 1/4" inverted flare nut on there, double flare it, use a union to connect the two.

Apeiron

Probably closer to 15/64".

Guest

LOL maybe. I didnt even jack the car up, was looking through my crosslace wheels at the mic.

The inv flare nut looks like its slightly different, but seems to me its been done before. The seat side on the nut is the same, just the threads are cutback on the bubble flares. Find an import shop? German stuff.

bilms01

I had the same line break a few weeks ago on my 89. I used a 1/4 in line reused the fitting at the prop and even though the flats on the rear at the hose were rounded a bit reused it. I had to run a drill through the tube nuts to get the 1/4 line to fit to clean it up a little. Then reflared the bubble flare not double flare (it will more than likely leak).

The line is 6mm which is .02 smaller than the 1/4. unless there is a lot of corrosion buildup around the tube under the nut the 1/4 will work. IIRC the threads on the rear nut are 10x1.0 and the nut at the prop is 12x1.0


As Aperion said the line from the prop to the rear axle hose has been metric line since 84. I have no idea why noboby makes replacement bulk tubing for that purpose. I spent a week trying to find it and all I heard is "Our supplier doesn't make it"

NightHawk84

well, I went with Fine Lines, thanks a bunch <86TA>. I appreciate all of you help. I agree bilms01... it's an American car, and it's not exactally "old" either.

the funny thing is, it was cheaper to buy the whole line from the master cylinder to the flex line. the 2 foot piece of tubing and the union was like $5 less. go figure. a whole new line is better than a union anyway. considering the line is 23 years old, who knows where it might have broke next.

again, thanks to all of you for your help.

as in Stephen King's book "Christine" the character Ronald LeLeBay said of her "that b!**h is the ACE of Spades".

thanks again guys.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

just be sure that if you placed the order with finelines online, that you call and let them know you did. My order sat in there inbox for about a week and a half before they even looked at it .

Apeiron

They do make it. It's almost hard not to find.

http://www.hpaulin.com/Catalogue/Ste...Lines_2006.pdf

NightHawk84

i ordered by phone. i wasn't taking any chances. it's a direct replacement. i ordered it friday, the guy said i should get it monday or tuesday.