alloy

iTrader: (16)

I've still got the drums on the rear of my car now, and have had no problems in 4700 miles of driving. Between other projects and trying to get parts out the door I am working on a rear disk upgrade setup using Wilwood components. Not sure when I will be done with it, but will let you know when it's completed.

So, if you want to go with the front kit, then upgrade your rear brakes later, you should be ok. With the front kit you are increasing your front braking power substantially , so you are going to have to re-learn to drive the car and take it real easy for awhile until you re-educate your right foot.

z28cdoyle:

How did I get a job working on stuff like this? Well I started my own business machining parts. In December I'll be in my 15th year of business. I started out making small parts for the casting industry, then went to making fly away aircraft parts, ATV parts, some medical stuff, TONS of "one off" race car stuff along the way. And since I wasn't happy with the performance of the C4 setup, I spent months developing the Wilwood front kit for my car. So among other things I'm now into manufacturing brake setups.

So, want to get into a business making stuff for your car? Ok, here's how I did it. Start a business, work 12 hour days 7 days a week for 10 years, miss all family functions and holidays, darn near lose you wife and kids along the way just to get yourself established and build a reputation. Then somewhere along the way find a part or niche you like, spend months and loads of money developing and designing the parts, scrap 3/4 of the work and parts you make because they didn't work properly, then when you do get the final design done, test it, test it, and test it more. And then if you are really lucky, you get someone with a reputation like Steve notice the quality of your parts and have him pick up your line of products to sell.

So, it's easy to get a cool job like this!!! Just work yourself to death at it!

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Hey there Tom, sorry I missed this, but YES it does!!

For those who missed the subject of this statement, click here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=59703

Ed

german-motorsport

Tom this is a fast world!people forget about those who started!LOL!
Think about this : check the front upper shock mount story on this page...others have taking over ............!
next time tom , work it out, test it, apply as sponsor and sell it.....

i save all the pics you provided way back then and some old people know you...still!hahahah

Colt

I see what you're saying german-motorsport. I just don't have the time, resources, and patience to mass produce and market my own product.

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

are the rotors available in sloted only not drilled and slotted. the drilled have been known to crack when used on a autocross style track. Abusive street driving has caused them to crack. I havent seen nwhere they are available but mabye its cause im blind..

alloy

iTrader: (16)

They are available plain, or drilled and slotted.

I've got approx. 6000 miles on my drilled and slotted rotors now, and have had zero problems with them and the rest of the kit.

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

now do you have any information of people running on a road coarse?? Im in the prosess of building my z up (money and time permitting) so i can run the fatts at the local autocoarse. Have they given any feed back levels on what type of break fading they get and how long it lasts? Most all break setups will get break fade. Have they noticed any cracking if they are running the drilled?? I know mostly all daily driving will not crack the drilled. thanks for the infor alloy. Very help full. The break kit is third in que. Wheels, headers, break kit, motor, subframe/suspencion, SC kit. Hope to be getting the kit around June.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

I ran my car in autocrossing for several months, and several thousand miles and never noticed any fading. And I've not gotten any reports of brake fade yet, but the kit was released for sale in October as I recall, so it was past the end of the road racing season. So no one has taken the kit on an extended road course run yet that I know of.

As large as the rotors are, and the extra cooling afforded by the open type wilwood calipers, I'd say you would have to really punish these brakes to make the fade. But as you say, all brakes can probably be made to fade, but I'd really love to get to drive the car that will make these fade. (that is if the car was driven correctly and the brakes weren't purposely ridden to make them fade)

Dewey316

dan, the quattro club is doing a track day at PIR in feb. if you loan me your car, i will test the brakes out at the track for you or maybe we could both take our f-bodies and let those euro-sleds try to chase us

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

thanks for the info alloy. I appreciate it. Im looking forewards to getting the system.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

You are welcome for the info twolfe.


Dewey,

That might be fun. How much is it to run with the Audi club? And do you need to join the club, or any other requirements you know of? I may only be doing road course events next year with my car.

And we need to talk about the auto-x season here next year. Basically, there won't be much of a season at all. PM me and I'll fill you in.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Ok, FYI for all you guys asking about my Wilwood kit fitting under GTA 16" cross lace wheels.

I won this ebay auction a couple of days ago. Hopefully I'll get the wheel soon. I've been looking for a single wheel to use for a couple of months now, but no one I know is willing to loan me their wheel for more than a day or so. Wonder why

Guess I got lucky and found someone on ebay selling the front wheels seperately and not in pairs. There were 2 of them for sale from the same seller. I bet the guy that won the other wheel is kinda upset though. He should have bid higher I guess But it will be for sale when I'm done with it.

I'll work on this and let you know what I come up with.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ME:B:EOAB:US:6

Colt

That's an expensive wheel!


Tom

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

Hey do you run drum rears or do you have the disks on all 4? Im wondering if there will be an overheating of the drum sence the front breaks are now more punishable and can disapate the heat.?.? I plan on getting disks on back but thats down the road after the fronts are upgraded.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Colt,

Yes it was expensive, but as I said I've looked and looked for a cross lace wheel to use, and this was cheaper than buying 2 of them, or a full set. To me it's a tool, and tools cost money. If I wanted to try and make the kit fit under one of these wheels, I can't see that I had much choice other than to pay that kind of money. Besides, I can recoup some of my money back after I'm done with it.



twolfe,

I do have drum rear for the moment until I see if I can adapt the Wilwood 4th gen rear LS1 style kit to my 10 bolt.

As far as the drums overheating, I haven't gotten them to that point yet. Got the kit made up late enough in the year that all the track days were over, or filled to capacity and wouldn't take anyone else. So autocross events were the only events I was able to test the brakes in.

Most of your braking is done with the front brakes (60% or more I'm told), so if anything the bigger front brakes might even lessen the demands on the rear drums. Just a hunch there. No facts.

But my future plans are for the 4th gen rear Wilwood kit. Just have to find the funds to purchase the kit (Christmas hurts big time) and get it adapted to my car. There is a tech article here on TGO about converting stock LS1 rear brakes to a 10 bolt, and the Wilwood kit is a direct replacement on a 4th gen, so I don't see any reason I can't put them on a 3rd gen rear using the same mods as a stock LS1 brake setup. The only thing I'm even concerend about is the parking brake cables for the new rear disks.

Justins86bird

Have you thought of using 1LE discs with the Wilwood calipers? You'd have to design a different bracket, but you'd have a 12" disc with 4 pot caliper.

Chickenman35

That's what I am going to do with my setup. Previously I had 10.5" GM brakes up front with the 1LE rears.

I now have Wilwood Superlites up front with 12" x1.375" Coleman rotors.. Have far too much front brake, even with the adjustable proportioning valve cranked to full rears.

I am going to build a rear system using Wilwood Superlites and the 1LE rotors. Front Superlites have 1.75" pistons. For the rears I am going to use 1.375" pistons.

BTW, the 1LE rotors seem to be more than up to the task of any competition including Track days. I Hillclimb, Autocross and run occassional Track days. The 1LE rear setup has stood up very well to the most demanding track days, even on a track that is notoriously hard on brakes.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Not a bad idea Justin. Thanks for bringing it up.

It all depends on the offset of the 1LE rotors. Yes the caliper would definately clear the inside of the rim where the drop center is with a 12" rotor, but it may not clear the back face of the wheel. The wilwood calipers require much more clearence there than a floating caliper does. And, the 13" rotors give so much more braking torque than a 12" would. The difference between the 12" C4's and the 13" on my car was unbelievable. You would have to drive the car to understand what a huge difference the 13" setup made. So, my goal is to keep the rotors as large as possible. The people that purchase these kits aren't out for looks in my opinion, they are out for max performance. And the 13" rotor with the wilwood calipers gives them that.

I'll just have to see what I can come up with when the wheel gets here. I just hope the guy is like me and ships stuff out quickly. I paid for the auction immediately, so hopefully he shipped it Tuesady or Wednesday.

JERRYWHO

That was my old setup.

Jerry

JERRYWHO

And a backside view.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

In a post earlier I made about brake torque I gave some numbers for comparision. I just did some quick calculations on percentages of torque increase going from 10.5" to 12" rotors, and 10.5 to 13" rotors.

Again, I'm using .65 for coefficent of friction, and am not taking into account the benefits of a 4 piston caliper over a floating caliper. This comparision is strictly to illustate the braking torque differences between diffierent size rotors only.

10.5 rotors 1459 ft. pounds. 12" rotors 1553 ft. pounds. An increase of 6.44%

10.5 rotors 1459 ft. pounds. 13" rotors 1838 ft pounds. An increase of 25.97%

So going to 13" rotors is an increase of 25.97% over stock 10.5 rotors, and an increase of 19.53% over 12" rotors.

So, size does matter I guess

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

i agree with you on that looks arent important its the stopping power that is needed.


Why wouldnt you just put in a 4th gen rear completely? I am thinking of putting in a disk 4thgen rear then gettting the wilwod kit for the 4th gen. is there any reason why you are just upgrading the stock rear and break system to a 4th gen and not the whole rear? im not up to par on info on rears yet, sorry.

Is there a benifit of the thirdgen rear moded over the 4th gen rear?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Well there are a number of reasons not to put a 4th gen rear in.

First the 4th gen rear is 2" wider per side. To some people this isn't an issue, but to some it is.

Second, cost. For me I already have 3.42 gears with a zexel posi and LCA brackets welded on the rear that's in my car. I've looked at 4th gen rears and they will run me $500 plus with 3.42 gears and the disk brakes on it. The 4th gen rear may be cheaper in some parts of the country, but not here.

Third, the 4th gen rear is no stronger than a 3rd gen rear. Just wider. So, doesn't make sense for me to go buy a 4th gen rear for $500 and then spend $700-$800 on the Wilwood rear kit when the kit should be adaptable to the 3rd gen rear.

I'm just trying to find an easy alternative to upgrade the rear brakes to match the front kit, and not have to replace the entire rear end.

Now that I have 4th gen wheels on my car, I wish I had a 4th gen rear for it. But at this point in time doesn't make sense for me to swap rears now with all the money I have in this one.

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

ok i see. i havent come across infromation talking about it being 2 inches wider. What would you say is an optmal setup when needing a good breaking syseem. i have a rear drum 3.42's i bieleve. it is on a 91z. can i adapt my rear to the new wilwod kit you are working on? or do i need to put in a posi disk rear? (wich i have in the shed 2.73's i think) From what i was told by a "mechanic" (losely used) that the whole rear has to be replaced for me to install disks. What setup would be best to use id i plan on upgrading to a willwood kit?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

If yo uwant a matching kit for the front, I'd go with the rear Wilwood kit for 4th gens.

As I said before, there is a tech article on TGO about installing LS1 style rear brakes to a 3rd gen 10 bolt. And, the rear Wilwood kit is a direct bolt on for a 4th gen. So it stands to reason that if a stock LS1 brake setup can be adapted to a 3rd gen 10 bolt, then the Wilwood kit should also be easily adapted. But to prove this I ned to come up with the funds to get the kit and adapt it.

Don't listen to your "mechanic" in this situation. There are many things people have done on this board that have been told "couldn't" be done. And adapting disk brakes to a drum axle is just one of them. It totally depends on how much work you are willing to do to accomplish your goal.

You can also put a posi in the 3.42 rear fairly easily also. SLP sells zexel take out's for $99.

twolfe

iTrader: (2)

ya i have been reeding up as much as i can find. It looks like there is every part out there needed forr what i need. Thanks again. keep us up on any progress on the rear break kit. Im thinking for simplicity and that i have a posi disk rear laying around that i will clean it up, rebuild it and throw some 342s in it along with the break kit when the funds are available. when i start on them ill document the install prtty well if any one is interested in it. This wont happen untill april i hope. I might be asking you some ? down the road if i get stuck alloy..

Axoid

I did the same calculations a couple of weeks ago and came up with different numbers for the 12" rotors. Do you see where my math went off?

10.5" rotor:
5602 pounds of clamping force x .65 (pad coefficient of friction) x 4.81 (torque arm length)=17514 in. pounds divided by 12 = 1459 ft. pounds of torque.

12" rotor:
5602 pounds of clamping force x.65 (pad coefficient of friction) x 5.56 (torque arm length)=20245 in. pounds divided by 12 = 1687 ft. pounds of torque.

13" rotor:
5602 pounds of clamping force x.65 (pad coefficient of friction) x 6.06 (torque arm length)=22066 in. pounds divided by 12 = 1838 ft. pounds of torque.


I know that your keeping the 13" rotor specs to your self, but but will I be able to to get brake pads from companies like Hawk or EBC?

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Well chalk up one for my old fingers for typing in the wrong number on my calculator. I checked each number twice, and still made a mistake. I'm wrong, and you are right. My error is on the 12" rotor torque. Thank you for correcting me.

The pads for the kit are available from wilwood. They make so many different compounds, and with their quality being so high I feel they are the best way to go for pads. Not to mention the incredible tech support by phone they have when you call them.