bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

PaintPrepGrease and wax remover (Smart 300) gallon1 $ 34.44 Tack Rag (Box of 12)1 $ 14.52 Filter/Sticks1 $ - Mixing cups12 $ 8.64 Adhesion Promotor for PlasticsBull Dog (Spray on with HVLP)1 $ 44.30 Flex AgentPPG (DX814)1 $ 58.46 OMNI1 $ 33.82 Primer Sealer/EpoxyPPG (gallon)1 $ 210.79 Hardener for PPG epoxy primer1 $ 125.76 OMNI (NP79)1 $ 99.93 Hardener for OMNI (NP79)1 $ 40.56 Primer Hi Build/UrethanePPG K38 (gallon)1 $ 235.95 Hardener for PPG1 $ 96.42 OMNI1 $ 80.10 Hardener for OMNI1 $ 35.63 Base Coat (4037 paint code)PPG - Deltron - DBC (gallon)1 $ 460.56 Hardener for PPG - DBC1 $ 65.20 OMNI Base Plus1 $ 200.70 OMNI Base1 $ 146.43 Hardener for OMNI1 $ 31.38 Clear CoatPPG - DBC (2021) gallon1 $ 234.64 Hardener1 $ 127.80 Reducer1 $ 26.34 Value Pro1 $ 84.87 Hardener1 $ 83.73 OMNI1 $ 84.07 Hardener1 $ 110.92


So I got these quoted by a local paint supply company (Finishmaster). The base coat paint code is a Ditzler PPG 4037. I am located in Northern Virginia and had a few questions for everyone out there.

The PPG paint from what I hear is really good but I am also trying to paint on a budget! They also offered a product line of OMNI Base and OMNI Base Plus. Has anyone every used OMNI product? Has anyone mixed OMNI product with PPG? Is there another company local to me that I could talk too about pricing and different/better product? Is there a different product that is better than OMNI but similar in price? I was also thinking of skipping the primer urethane step because I have put a lot of time blocking filler and rattle can primer so the car is pretty straight and I am not going for a super car show quality paint job.

I also had a question for preping the front clip and rear bumper. Is there something that I should prep with to get the paint to stick well? I was quoted "Bull Dog" but it seemed like that wasn't what I needed. I have completely stripped down the original parts.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, -CB

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

This will help clear up the cost break down.

Thanks,

ZsTransAm

I've sprayed hundreds of jobs with PPG and I can vouch for its quality. I've only used the cheaper products a few times - I sprayed my brothers car with silver Omni 3 or 4 years ago, it looks good for the price and its held up fine so far. My Alero was shot with dark blue shopline paint which is PPG's other offbrand. I've been told its very simular or even the same as Omni. I was pretty unimpressed with it. It took a LOT of basecoat to get full coverage and the clearcoat scratched very easily. I sprayed Nason, which is Dupont's cheap line of paint, on a friends truck. It covered ok and the clear didn't seems to be decent.

I've been told you can put Omni products over or under PPG products but I've never tried.

Adhesion promoter shouldn't be necessary if you're priming the bumper, but I you have a bare plastic bumper you're planing to just seal and paint then you'll need adhesion promoter.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

I have also been looking at Summit product. I have provided a cost breakdown of everything. This is much cheaper stuff! Does anyone have any experience with this stuff?

Thanks,

-CB

brian p

If you're not stuck on base/clear, try the Omni single stage acrylic urethane, I used, am clearly a novice, and it turned out OK even in black. I think it's cheaper than base/clear too.

jay_d

been a few years since ive been in the body shop, but ppg deltron used to be the best. i strongly prefer k38 primer with deltron base an clear, but a company called rubber seal makes a clear coat kit that works on everything for around 175 per gallon.

shopline base is around 30 bucks per qt and mixes 1:1 and covers pretty good if you use a hvlp spray gun. ive even used the metallics and its all in the application. shop line clear works good if you almost dryspray it, if you lay it out slick in a full wet coat it will orange peel bad after it drys. the rubber seal stuff is great. it sprays on great full wet and doesnt orange peel as bad as ANY ppg product ive used, and its pretty hard to run it too.

stay away from dupont...its not really shade tree friendly (not sure how good you are. no offense intended)

Ron U.S.M.C.

Are you going to be spraying this yourself? Is this your first time? Sorry but I’m a firm believer in utilizing the skills of a professional painter when you start spending that kind of money on product. I know moneys tight every where but I would at least call around.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body/543541-prep-paint-photos.html

Did you say rattle can primer??? Is that compatible with any paint?

haps

iTrader: (4)

I certainly wouldn't spend that kind of money over rattlecan primer.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

I have not called around but that is a good idea. I was assuming that I could reduce cost by doing it myself but worth a shot.

So I attended to have a friend of my fathers spray the car. He used to paint for a living for about 20 years. I have also helped him spray a few cars in the past in a make shift garage spray booth. He suggested the PPG paint brand which we used in the past but I cant afford it.

So this has been an ongoing project going on for about 1.5 years. As I completed a panel I would spray some Dupont Primer sealer from a rattle can primer. Dont know if it is compatible.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...ier=246428_0_0_

I used just enough of this primer to cover a bare panel. During this process I have blocked and sanded a few spots. In doing so I realized that I could sand this dupont sealer off pretty easily. Should I remove this layer of rattle can primer before painting?

haps

iTrader: (4)

To my knowledge DuPont doesn't make a rattlecan sealer. Some rattlecan primers from SEM and the like seem to work ok. If you have any paint applied by rattlecan it's best to remove it before spending hundreds of dollars in automotive paint to cover it.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

Sorry for the confusion, dupli-color. Not Dupont.

Ron U.S.M.C.

Your friend that is going to be painting should be told about it and then see what he has to say.

IMO absolutely remove the spray can sealer. Sorry but when in doubt don't do it.

No disrespect intended but I think I would have talked to that paint store before doing that much work.
You know what , I would still ask them just to get another opinion.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

So I asked the paint supplier today about painting over this rattlecan primer and he said he had heard of guys spraying over it and it created what he called a 'solvent pop'. Apparently, since the rattle can primer is a 1K and I would be spraying a 2K primer it 'may' do this very thing where it blisters the paint. He suggested to spray a test area to see what affect it may have if any. Thought that was a good idea. However, as you mentioned the amount of time that I have in this prep work and the amount of money that I will be spending I dont want my time and most of all my money to go out the window. I will plan on removing this primer. It comes off pretty easy anyways.

So I have decided to use the OMNI base product (epoxy and urethane primer and base coat) and will use PPG BCU-2021 clear. I have been told this give the best appearance for the budget minded painter. I think this will be a good compromise between bottom the barrel paint and the top of the line.

Let me know what you guys think.

-CB

ZsTransAm

I think thats a decent idea, but keep in mind that because Omni base coat is pretty thin you'll probably need to buy more basecoat than you would if you would if you bought PPG. Also Omni doesn't carry black or white sealer (at least my local Omni supplier doesn't) so if you're painting a very dark or light color you have to spray even more base to get full coverage.

Ron U.S.M.C.

Maybe a compromise. PPG Deltron base and using Omni products for the rest. Omni is produced by PPG. Heres there Tech # 1-800-641-6050 Maybe you can ask if they can be used together.

Edit = I have been searching the web and apparently the consensus is that there is a reason the Omni is cheaper. What ZsTrans Am said above is true. You will not only need more paint to get enough coverage but that will cost you time and effort and you are still not getting the quality product of the PPG Deltron.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

That paint job on your camaro Ron is awesome! Great job to the painter. Gives me something to look forward too. So you guys are starting to convince me that PPG base and clear are the way to go and your coming from experience. All points well taken.

If I were to go with OMNI base how much more would I have to buy on top of the gallon to get equal coverage if I were to go with Deltron? I will be painting jambs and the underneath side of the hood.

So if I go with OMNI Epoxy and Urethane Primer (gallon each), OMNI base with Deltron Clear the cost would be: $893

If I go with OMNI Epoxy and Urethane Primer (gallon each) and Deltron base and clear the cost would be: $1,365.

A difference of $472; thats without any additional OMNI base.

Sounds like the extra cost is worth it.

So yesterday I started to sand off the primer sealer from the spray can and it is coming off easy. An hour in and almost half the car is done. Yet another reason to get rid of it, not a good foundation even if it laid down good. I just wish that the old paint and primer came off that easy. You can see the difference between quality paint and the autozone special. Lesson learned. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

-CB

ZsTransAm

I still say you should check out Nason. Its pretty similar to Omni in price and quality but they carry white and black sealers and also the base can be reduced half as much for the first coats as long as your last coat of base is reduced 1:1.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Most of the rattle can stuff is lacquer. I'd be worried spraying any urethane over it that the solvent would react with the lacquer.

The only thing I use in a rattle can is adhesion promotor for spots i cannot physically sand but that needs to be sprayed.


Anyhow, Summit, Kirker, Trinity1945 (paintforcars.com), and TCP all make decent mid grade paints. The pigmentation and quality is reasonable, the paint is durable, and sprays well. I've been using Trinity1945 for the past 4 years and I'm happy with the results. I did a Camaro in 2009 BC/CC metallic and it's still bright, no peeling, chipping, etc. It's been outside every since.

I recently picked up a gallon of Speed-o-kote hot rod black. I'm looking forward to seeing how that lays down.



-- Joe


-- Joe

haps

iTrader: (4)

Back in the day you could put anything over lacquer and it'd be fine, do it in reverse, and you'd lift anything underneath. I don't trust anything that comes out of a rattlecan. The only rattlecan I buy is the cheapest flat black from Wallyworld for guidecoat, for that it works great.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Urethane grade reducer is a pretty serious solvent

If you epoxy over laquer you won't get any lift, which then gives you a nice barrier. If the guy sprayed rattle can primer over any pitted metal you won't get it out with paper so it's easier to just epoxy it and start over than to mediablast the whole thing and hope you didn't miss a spot.

-- Joe

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

So over the past week I have sanded off as much rattle can primer as I possibly can. Wish I had a picture I could post. I am planing on using PPG OMNI MP-170 Epoxy Primer (Grey) (They do carry white and black sealer MP-171 and MP-172 respectively) reduced with a 2:1 with MP-175 Catalyst (Hardener) as the next painting step. The cutsheet states that Acetone may be added up to 10%. So from what I am hearing I should be ok to mix it 2:1, no acetone and apply that too my 95% completly sanded car? Your right about not getting all of this rattle can primer sealer off especially in the jambs.

I really appreciate everyone chimming in and added their experience. I want this thing too turn out the best that it can. Spray date has been set for September 14.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

So I just got off the phone with PPG Tech center and they stated that anywhere that rattle can primer is on the car and when sprayed over will lift! He said since there was no hardener that went into that layer the hardener in the Epoxy will react with it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Possible.

Lots of members like to talk about how great their rattle can paint jobs came out, or their 'on the cheap' restorations but all they're doing is making the car harder and more expensive to fix properly for the next guy.

I do know for a fact that rustoleum primer won't lift with pro-form epoxy:

http://www.hardwareworld.com/files/pi/bN/V/C43Z.jpg

I can't speak to other brands.

-- Joe

Ron U.S.M.C.

To sand off that rattle can in really tight spots you can use baby flat file, fingernail file either the steel or regular. Steel is nice because its easy to clean as you go. I have a steel one in my tool box that I had to cut the bare tip off.

ZsTransAm

Hmm, I stand corrected! I wonder why my local PPG dealer doesn't sell it?

After blocking out the primer you are planning to go over it with a DA sander before sealing, correct? I hand block sand with 320 and DA lightly with 600 before sealing. Sealing will cover a lot of the sand scratches but If you forget to DA they can show through the sealer (and then through the base and clear). A second coat a sealer usually fixes this but its better if you don't have to.

camarotucker

iTrader: (2)

Never block sand with a DA. Sealer will not cover/fill any scratches. Generally, for a solid color (non-metallic) 600 would be overkill. You would want to be more in the 400-500 range. Under 1000 you never jump more than 100 grit at a time.

Anything out of a rattle can is a 1k product meaning that it only takes 1 part, the product itself, to cure. A 2k product requires two parts to be mixed together (the product, and an activator) in order for it to cure. Sometimes when applying a 2k over a 1k the activator in the 2k will reactivate the 1k and cause lifting.

ZsTransAm

Sealer does cover sand scratches to a point, but don't try to get it to cover 100% of the scratches from blocking the primer. Don't block sand with a DA, do buzz over lightly to remove the back and forth scratches from block sanding. Some people buzz over with 400 when they're done, I use 600. No big deal, just personal preference. Of course you can jump more than 100 grit at a time, you just have to be smart about it.

haps

iTrader: (4)

CT is correct, sealer doesn't fill scratches, nor should it be relied upon to do so. Don't even consider touching the car with a DA after final blocking to 400...600 at the very most. I skip the sealer step completely. If you have a non-broken primer coat at the end of the blocking stage, it's unnecessary. It's best practice to not jump 100grit when escalating sandpaper and I certainly wouldn't suggest otherwise to a painting noob.


Edit: I suppose if you're over-reducing an epoxy and using it as a sealer it may close up some scratches, but I certainly would bet hundreds of dollars of topcoat on it.

ZsTransAm

From what I've read from your replies on this board you seem to know your stuff, so I'm not intending any disrespect here... but the advice I've given is what is taught in auto body tech school and is what every auto body technician I know practices. Doing it this way produces professional paint jobs that last a lifetime.

Edit- If anyone has questions about why I do something a certain way or how it works, just ask.

haps

iTrader: (4)

You've got to remember that if someone is asking "basic" questions about painting a car, they more than likely have never attempted it before or very few times. I can run a DA over a car after I've blocked it because I know what I'm doing, so maybe can you. Again, I'd never cut loose a noob with a DA unless I was standing over them for advice and instruction. Some people that post on the board don't have the benefit of instruction, which is why they come here. Assume they've never seen a paint gun when you administer advice...they'll be better off. As a side note, I've love to ask the auto body tech teacher(yours?) why he does that. It's completely unnecessary and dangerous after having spent all that time meticulously blocking.

ZsTransAm

Its been been years since I've talked to my instructors but I'd be glad to tell you myself - 'buzzing over' with the DA is done to quickly knock down some of the harshness of the block sand scratches. The reason its commonly done with 600 instead of 400 is because 600 is fine enough that it doesn't shape the primer when you go fast. I can tell you from experience what you risk when you don't do this... occasionally i miss a spot with my DA and you can see the block sand scratches through the sealer. You have a couple options at this point - you can put on another coat of sealer to cover the sand scratches, you can wait it out and sand the sealer, or you can put on your base and hope for the best. A couple times I skipped sealer and hadn't sanded the 320 grit block sanding scratches out far enough. After clear coat I could still see some of the sanding marks so I had the redo them for free. Thank god they weren't complete paint jobs...

I am guilty of omitting one very important piece of information - the DA sander must be be a finish sand DA (like this kind http://3mcollision.com/products/tool...der-20320.html) and must have an interface pad.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

Just a little update. Just got back from the paint store and decided to use the PPG OMNI Base product with the OMNI Base Plus basecoat. Decided to stick with one brand throughout. Plan on getting the rest of the rattlecan primer off this weekend. Cost me around $830 including tape, paper, masks, cups, adhesion promoter, wax and grease remover, striners, 320 dry paper. Two more weeks till show time!

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

Still missing the hardener for the clear and flex additive. Looking to pick those up next week sometime. This has been a long time coming.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Omni is not bad. My buddy sprays that daily.

What are you using for primer?

-- Joe

camarotucker

iTrader: (2)

Read the p-pages (p-sheets) for the flex agent as generally they are only good for 48 hours. If you do not plan on reassembling the car within the time window you may be able to save some money there.

Primer is Omni, MP170 (Epoxy), MP282 (high build).