Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Okay, I already know there are going to be some haters on here for this. Go away. This is for people who don't want or need to risk breaking their hatch glass unnecessarily. I was going to post this a while ago, but didn't get around to it. I could request a sticky, but I'll let others do that if they so want...

Since it's getting to be the time of year again where we want to get our toys out and looking pretty, I thought I would type this up. We all know that, at some point, the rear hatch on 99% of our cars either has or will become misaligned with the quarter panels. What I have here is a way to fix the WHOLE HATCH alignment issue. This is to act as a guide to REPLACE the Tech Article (which is WAY more work than is necessary and/or worth, and is LESS DANGEROUS, less costly, and FASTER), which people have followed and SHATTERED their hatches following. This is not noticeable when done. The hatch hinge covers the slots/holes from the outside, and the nuts and headliner trim from the inside.

The logic behind this is as follows:
1. The hatch glass is BOLTED AND GLUED to the decklid. Period. If it wasn't glued, there would be water leaks, correct?
2. The windshield is GLUED to the body. If it wasn't, every time someone went over a hard bump and/or the body twisted, the windshield would end up shattered on the pavement/dirt/what have you.
Therefore:
If the windshield is glued into place and DOES NOT come loose (and anyone who has had to replace/remove a windshield knows the kind of effort it takes to remove one!), then the decklid CANNOT COME LOOSE FROM THE HATCH GLASS. PERIOD. And, as such, THIS IS NOT WHAT CAUSES MISALIGNMENT OF THE HATCH.

What I and others have noticed about the misalignment of the hatch is one of the following. The force of newer/stronger hatch struts along with gravity push the hatch away from the hinges. This can cause:
1. Hatch hinge nuts sliding on the body if not tightened enough;
2. Hatch hinges BENDING.

Now, to realign the hatch, GM says the following:

ALL HATCH ALIGNMENT ISSUES ARE TO BE CORRECTED AT THE HINGE-TO-BODY LOCATIONS.

They say this in both my 1987 service manual and my 1992 service manual, so I guess it's just the way it is.

Problem with this is that the outer holes on the body are a simple side-to-side slot. While the inner holes are square, allowing adjustment fore-to-aft. However, due to the fact that the outer holes are just side-to-side slots, there is next to no fore-to-rear adjustment (actually none).

There is only one cure for this. The outer holes MUST be elongated to allow the hatch to be adjusted in the fore-to-aft position.

Now, before you body guys say something about this, one question:

How is it that, when you guys recommend to align the doors, which are a STRUCTURAL COMPONENT, you recommend to elongate the holes in the lower door support plate behind the kick panel, while you say that to align the hatch, which is a NON-STRUCTURAL, NON-LOAD BEARING COMPONENT, you separate the hatch glass from the decklid, modify the glass if necessary, and reattach the decklid to the glass, rather than elongating the body mounting holes? Seems to me that elongating the mounting holes in the doors would be a NO-GO, instead of the hatch hinge holes.

RANT OVER.

Now that that's out of the way, the fix. This takes approximately half an hour. No waiting for glass sealant to dry. No waiting to find out if the hatch is going to leak or not. None of that. It's quick, painless, not messy (unless you count the metal shavings from drilling), and easy for the average Joe to do. All you need is a short piece of 2x4, a 5/16" drill bit, and possibly a reamer the same size as the drill bit.

1. Open hatch.
2. Remove rear trim panel covering hatch motor (if equipped) and disconnect motor.
3. Prop hatch open with some sort of support and remove BOTH hatch struts at the body brackets on both sides.
4. Allow hatch struts to slide along interior trim as you close and latch hatch. The pulldown was disconnected to make it easier to move the hatch.
5. Inside the car, remove the 4 screws holding the rear headliner trim in place and set trim aside.
6. Remove 4 nuts on hatch hinges and set aside. Push hatch glass up enough to get hinge studs out of holes and put a section of 2x4 between hatch glass and body edge. Rest hatch on 2x4. This is why the hatch was re-latched, to keep it from sliding off of the back of the car.
7. Using a drill and a 5/16" drill bit, drill a hole approximately just far enough away from the original hatch hinge bolt hole for the drill bit to not eat into the original hole too much. DO NOT PUSH TOO HARD OR THE DRILL BIT WILL HIT THE HATCH AND POTENTIALLY SHATTER IT!!! Also be careful of your eyes, nose, and the rest of your face!
8. I had to use a reamer between the original factory hole and the new hole to get a slot...
9. Push up on hatch glass again, remove 2x4 from between glass and body, and allow hatch hinges to drop back into holes. Put nuts on loosely. You may need to grind off a little of the outer edge of your hinge nuts to get full adjustment. I know mine were pretty close.
10. Go to the back of the car and align the edge of the hatch with the quarter panels/spoiler. Or have someone else do it while you're inside the car.
11. Tighten hatch hinge nuts.
12. Go out to the back of the car and reopen hatch. Make sure that the hatch can open all of the way WITHOUT grinding against the roof of the car. It shouldn't. If your hatch was so far out of alignment that it does, you have other problems that need to be looked at (like say, was the hatch glass replaced at some point and was it done properly?).
13. Reinstall hatch struts to body mounts and trim covers attached to struts.
14. Reconnect hatch pulldown.
15. Reinstall rear hatch trim and spare tire cover.
16. Reinstall rear headliner trim.

Enjoy your newly-aligned hatch.

My 87 had a rather sizeable gap between the hatch and the quarter panels, about 1/4" (On the driver's side, I won't get into the other). The upper part of the hatch also had a gap so big I could get a finger between the hatch glass trim and the roof. After this adjustment, I had about half of the distance between the hatch and the roof and no gap between the decklid and driver's quarter panel (again, not going to get into the passenger's side due to other issues with that side). This meant that no more crud (helicopter tree seeds, for instance) could get into the hatch channel around the roof. But water was no issue, and the hatch didn't rub on the roof panel. Plus, the hatch gap looked TONS better at the roof line. I still need to do this on my 88. And no, I don't think I have a pic with this done at current, except for the hatch hinge mount hole pic. I'll take one after I get the 88 done.

The attached pics are before and after of the hatch hinge mount holes.

T/Aperformance

I'm not a hater or anything like that but your statement here is wrong the glue as you call it is called butel, And it can become soft from the heat of the summer sun on the back glass. and with the pressure of the gas shock pushing on the deck lid is what cause most of the misalignment issues that thifgens have.
Now what you have listed here in your post will fix the problem a bit.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The windshield doesn't sag because there are plastic blocks under it keeping it supported. US car makers use non hardening windshield adhesive as opposed to europeans which hardens (and is easier to remove the windshield with cutting wire) As for the hatch, I have replaced a few myself and the hinge area almost never has enough adjustment to make them fit flush, I simply remove the decklid from the glass, reseal and realign

Are you not weorried the hogged out hole is gonna be a water leak?

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

Nice alternative thinking here!

My comments:
I don't think there will be a waterleak per se... the hole should be covered enough on the outside to prevent that.
My concern would rather be about that hole beginning to wildly corrode after not sooo much time, so you may want to add some countercorrosive spray/paint/whatever and let that dry properly before retightening the nuts.
Probably this adjustment advice was accurate for the first 3rd gen years and nobody bothered to check and modify this part of the documentation in later years.
Noticed the same with door adjustment. My 90s manual says to loosen the striker bolt and move it further in. My mechanic said the same from experience. But the hole has become just that over the years: a hole and no longer a slot.

2007xl50

Not a bad write up, but separating the hatch from the glass is not that hard. Just this past weekend I did it at the yard when it was 27 degrees out and it poped right off and the glass never even seemed like it was going to break. The car was an 85 too so much older than my car. The deck lid/hatch on my RS sticks out some past the edge of the 1/4's, but since I bought a new hatch/deck lid I will just make sure I align it when installed.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

The risk of glass breakage is very high when tightening the nuts.
Too much torque and your hatch magically disappears

TreeFiddy

I've just recently had the joy of replacing my hatch due to a rear-end collision. The hinges were bent, as was the roof lip they bolt on to. So much so, the hinges and remnants of the glass frame had popped up above the roofline about 1cm, and forward of the rear edge of the roof by a good inch, digging into the roof. Most of this movement was in the body.

So the alignment for the new hatch was pretty f'd up. Judicious pounding with various hammers and blocks of wood showed me that the roof lip is pretty easily bendable, and a perfect alignment would be achievable. I wonder if many hatch mis-alignments are caused just by the roof lip deforming slowly over time?

Also interestingly enough - 3 of my hinge holes were square but the fourth was round, and exactly the diameter of the bolt. Thus in my case, no left-right or fwd-rear adjustment would be possible, without opening this one hole up in the desired direction.

2007xl50

I'm sure your right-thanks for makeing me worry about the install LOL!, that's why I'm going to go slow and easy with it, sung is the word. It's kinda crazy that GM thought it was a good idea to bolt steel to glass and have the glass support it.

TreeFiddy

This had me holding my breath too, just snicked them up incrementally until I felt they were 'tight enough', maybe 10-15 ft/lbs at a guess. Think there may have been rubber washers under the nuts too, but no idea what the torque rating should be.

white gold 88

OP That is not what the REAL GM factory service manual says. Ratting out those holes can go wrong in so many ways. It only takes a little more time to do it right and you may also find in the process that you will fix those rear hatch water leaks around the spare tire area when you reseal that hatch to glass. I'll make a copy of my GM manual if anyone would like.

W.E.G.

From: GM – CAMARO 1982-1992 – Repair Guide

white gold 88

But the problem is over the years the urethane that holds the glass to the hatch releases and the butyl hardens and looses it's seal between the glass and hatch panel allowing the hatch panel to slide back. This part of the manual is assuming the hatch and glass are still where the factory installed them, no other problems. They won't spell that out for you because they assume that you have diagnosed the problem correctly. Those gas struts have nearly a hundred pounds of force on them assisting on this problem. Keep reading that manual and it will describe how to adjust and replace the hatch. You will notice they even say to install the hatch panel to the glass shorter than the quarters. This is to allow for the pressure of those struts. There are quick fixes to everything but not always the right fix. Like I said doing it the right way will even take care of those pesky water leaks into the spare tire and left side compartment areas. But you can use silicon between the hatch and glass on the outside if you just want to stop the leak. The manual will also tell you where to install urethane and butyl as both are recommended but I used urethane on the entire sealing area. Works fine, no leaks and my hatch lines up better than most I've seen, it's not perfect but these cars were not built with the tolerances as the imports in their day, or now. Good luck with your project, I'd personally like to see more third gens done right and stop their reputation of being spray canned turds with dragging doors and generally just junkers with wheels. I'd also like to see more threads on here about repairs done correctly instead of quick fixes. Sorry about my little rant just trying to help get the third gen reputation and values up some.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Exactly!!!!!!!!!

TPI-Formula350-

all cars windshields are what you call "glued" with Urethane, I was in the auto glass business for 10 years.

white gold 88

Not really. The domestic manufacturers didn't start with urethane till the 80's. With more unibodies came more urethane. They do that because they consider the windshield a structural part and to keep passenger side airbags from blowing out the windshield and decreasing their effectiveness. GM trucks didn't go to urethane till the late 80's along with the Caprice's as they were full frame and didn't have the passenger side airbags until then. Generally anything with the small molding was urethane and the ones with the stainless moldings around them were butyl. We hated the urethane when it came out. The butyl windshields you could take off the moldings and litterly(sp) push them out with your feet or hands sometimes.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The urethane used in us cars is not even the same as in eurotrash, all cars here used hardening urethane, it dries to a solid ribbery texture, the us stuff is always sticky on the inside and a bitch to get off with piano wire as it clkogs like mad and even when you go all round with your wire it will stick back on itself on the wet contact patches, making removal a PITA and increasing the chance of breaking the windshield. Windshield replacement co.s here hate dealing with 80s and 90s US cars for that reason. Another drawback is, the glass still floats a little and needs blocks to keep it from sagging. On our rear hatches the strut pressure and the forces from opening and shutting it may very well be the cause of the rear misalignments seen on a lot of these cars. I have fixed it a couple of times and every time I had to seperate the hatch from the glass. On some the hatch simply pulled off,

white gold 88

It's been several years since I cut out any windshield. I'm lazy, glass company gets the call. LOL They have the right tools and experience messing with them every day.

bennettcvcu

iTrader: (3)

This past week I removed the decklid from the hatch. As like most of you I found out too that this glueing compound is very sticky. The car that I have is an 88 and it appeared that it had never been removed. When removing the decklid I propped the glass up on a bucket, removed all the nuts and screws holding the decklid on and began rocking the decklid back and forth with no prevail (Outside air temperature was in the low 40's). With no luck my brain got to thinking , I need to get something that will release the bond of the glue. Went to the shelf and grabbed some goof off. I then propped the decklid/hatch assembly up so that when I trickled the goof off between the two parts it would set in there and hopefully do its magic. After a few minutes letting it do it thing I started the process again of working the decklind back and forth. After a few tries i noticed that the gap between the glass and the decklid started to get bigger . I put some more of the goof off in the trench and began working it some more. After a few more minutes of the up down up down I defeated the bond.

In a few other posts I read about using some sort of string/saw and agree with one post that based on what I experienced the glue would gum up what teeth was on it and render it uselss. I thought of a heat gun but didnt have one and from what I learned that would take some time.

I am now a big fan of the goof off and would recommend it to anyone. Worth the 4 dollars or so IMO.

On another note but related does anyone know where you can buy a non rusted decklid? Mine, like others have witnessed, is rusted a bit around the holes to allow access to the speed nuts to remove the spoiler.

Thanks and good luck!

Iroc-EZ

iTrader: (1)

To white gold 88 and Twin_Turbo Thank You. I've read numerous posts/manuals on how to get the hatch to align a hundred different ways. So when I started working on aligning the hatch on my car I took an objective approach to it. I took off all trim panels and measured everything, the body gaps near the hinges, angle of the hinges, hing to edge of glass, hing to edge of body....everything. I was at first slightly frustrated that all measurements from passenger side seemed the same as the driver side. And actually started to think the OP's idea might be the only way. But logically thinking it makes no sense, if the hatch was aligned at one point, and all gap/angle measurements are the same in the area near the hinges, the problem must be elsewhere. I continued to measure everything around the hatch and that's when i found the difference. From the deck lid to the first line of the defroster on the passenger side is exactly 10.5 inches the driver side is 10 and 7/8 of an inch. The driver side is pushed out 3/8 of an inch. Yeah it took a lot longer to measure everything and tomorrow it will take longer to pull off the deck lid than it would to wallow out some holes. But trying to fix a wrong angle with making another wrong angle doesn't make a car straight.

white gold 88

Thank you IROC-EZ. You said it pretty well. I have been a body man for several years so if a panel doesn't fit I usually can tell what is wrong with the car just by where the panel doesn't fit. Measuring is what you do when the cause of the misalignment isn't obvious. Like your signature also, it says it well also.

bennet, that goop off works well on butyl but I would be surprised if it done much to the urethane. I've personally never tried it, on urethane anyway. Still good info.

Iroc-EZ

iTrader: (1)

Im pretty happy with how it looks know.
Before

After

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Danny, How much further in do they reccomend? I'm guessing just a slight bit 1/16", 1/32"?

white gold 88

Iroc-EZ, That looks great. Lines up even better than mine. Great job.

Jordan, the service manual says 3 mm or 1/8 inch. It also calls for priming and installing urethane 2-3/8 inches up and 1-3/4 across the very back corners of the glass. This urethane is what does most of the holding or bonding of the glass to the hatch. They also specifiy 5/16 square butyl across the rest of the glass to hatch area. This is the gooey stuff that is just for sealing. If anyone would like I can take a pic of this procedure in the manual and e-mail it.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Danny. I couldn't see any evidence of urethane on my old one, or the Z one I got to replace it, just a big butyl strip about an inch down from the tip of the hatch on both. But I'm sure the urethane would hold much better. Mine also has a scew in spot on the side to set it, I wonder if the later ones the stopped with the urethane and added a screw to the side?

white gold 88

I'm not sure but I believe they used the urethane on all third gens. You may see the primer for the urethane on the hatch, it will appear brushed on as it is. The book also mentions that new holes may have to be drilled for the trim mouldings, probably as there are no alignment points for their position on the glass. I'll be glad to take a pic of my manual if you want.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Ah yes the screws go through the trim molding. I was thinking the trim was holding the hatch, but the reverse makes sense as well. I'll look on the underside of the hatches I've got and see if there is any brushed markings. Either way I guess I gotta get some primer and urethane now.

86_irocz-28

love it this is how i did mine a few months back

white gold 88

You could probably get some primerless urethane and use it. That's what I used.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

These next 3 posts of mine are the last times I'm posting in this thread. If you want to continue to adjust the hatch in such an incorrect and DANGEROUS manner, so be it. All I can tell you is that I'm 100% sure I can get the ENTIRE hatch aligned in less time than it takes to remove the decklid from the hatch glass, and WITHOUT any possibility of breaking the $1500 piece of glass.

Anyways, this is what GM has to say on the subject. First pic is the 87 Firebird Factory Service Manual and the second is the 92 Bird Manual.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Second, the hatch gaps currently on my 88.

In the first pic, you will see the top edge at the hinge end of the glass. Yes, that is my finger in the gap. And yes, that is as far forward as the GM factory holes allow. If you think that looks okay, I assure you that it looks like CRAP. Personally, I like nice tight gaps between my body panels, and there is a TON of crap that gets into that wide open gap and looks like garbage as it sits and rots in there.

Yes, in the second pic, the hatch is latched. The pulldown is unplugged for the moment as that's another thing I'm working on in bits here and there (new nylon guides don't quite fit), so that's why the hatch is partially open. I can assure you, however, that when closed, the trailing edge of the decklid is 3/16" past the end of the quarter panels. I may try to remember to get another pic of the closed and pulled-down hatch before I do the adjustment.

I will be posting my last post in this thread to illustrate the completed adjustment.

And, white gold 88, I have placed you on my IGNORE list. I'm done with your trolling in my threads.

white gold 88

LOL See post #12

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't going to bother saying anything but...

How is a professional body man giving information from a GM service bulletin "DANGEROUS". Especially when compared to someone who came up with something in their driveway ,and has no idea what there doing, instructing others on a "better" way to do something aside from what the manufacturer reccomends, which includes cutting up part of the roof?!

Your hatch took 25 years to get pushed back by the struts. If you are too lazy to spend a half an hour to get it put back on properly then you really shouldn't be instructing others on what to do with their cars. And most certainly shouldn't make any attempt to argue with a GM service bulletin.


Danny, thank you for your help.

Maverick I look forward to your future articles on how to lower your car with zip ties, and fix radiator hoses with duct tape.

white gold 88

Thanks Jordan but in little Dan's defense he doesn't know me or what I do. I could be anyone. But that's no excuse for his name calling then running off. I sent him a pm a couple days ago but he's not answered. Complimented him on his mechanical knowledge but tried again to explainwhere he's went wrong with his thinking. No where in the Service Manual that he wants to live by does it mention ratting out the holes for the hatch. By that way of thinking when you do a front end alignment and the struts won't move enough to get proper specs you just rat the holes out because the "book" says to adjust them there. As I've said before it is your car, do what you want but ratting out holes and such will not help with the bad reputation these cars have.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely and I don't want anyone to think I'm ragging on this guy for doing this to his car. I would even be OK with this thread if he put a disclaimer like hey this is ghetto, but if your a lazy and don't care about your car it could be a good fix! There is a big difference between both of those things and arguing that your junk yard repair is superior to the manufacturers reccomendations, name calling is just un called for. I for one would really like to see more proper info on these boards about how to get things right on these cars than the easiest shade tree way to whatever..

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

I checked both my deck lids and there is some urethane it is just a little closer to the edge than the butyl. Almost looks like it was used in conjunction but the butyl probably pushed closer to it over the years. The urethane was totally detached from the glass and kinda foamy feeling at this point though, I'm assuming that was the urethane at least..

white gold 88

Sounds like you found the difference between the butyl and urethane. Be sure they do overlap each other so it will have a continous seal. It won't hurt the two to get together the urethane will still harden. Sometimes they will use butyl as a dam to hold the urethane in place. I'd put my glass on the car aligning it with the adjustments provided in the hinges then install the hatch aligning it 1/8 inch short on the quarters. Allow the urethane to dry then reattach the lift supports and you will have it reassembled and aligned the REAL GM way. LOL