I'm new here, but I've been a big Pontiac and Firebird fan for a long time! I know a lot more about the 2ndG 'birds than the 3rdG, though, so bear with me .

There's a 1991 GTA for sale near where I live, and it claims to be a one-owner, exceptional condition vehicle. I'm going to look at it this weekend, so I haven't seen it in the flesh. It has the 350, leather... and T-tops. From what I've read, there was a "value package" that gave the GTA T-tops and leather; however, there is conflicting information regarding the availability of factory T-tops with the 350. Most sources seem to say it wasn't available; others say it was, but was VERY rare.

I've attached a pic of the car's T-tops: can anyone tell if they're legit? Was the body tag code still CC1 for T-tops, like it was for the 2ndG cars? And if it was, where is the body tag on a 3rdG to confirm the tops are legit?

If it was a legitimate 1991 GTA with factory T-tops, what would that add to the value?

 

Although apparently you could get an L98/t-top car that year on a Formula, I'm pretty sure that combo was not available on a 1991-92 Trans Am or GTA, at least in the U.S. I want to say there might have been an exception of some sort for Canadian export cars, but I could be dead wrong there as I'm just going off the top of my head.

Do you have the VIN for the car? I would definitely run it through compnine.com's decoder to see what it originally was. If the 8th digit of the VIN is an F and not an 8, you'll know immediately that it was not originally an L98 car, and the t-tops are probably factory. CC1 was (and still is) the RPO for glass/lexan t-tops.

Although they LOOK like factory t-tops in the photo, I'm not very good at identifying C&C t-tops, so that's a possibility as well. Also could have originally been a 305, and the guy is advertising it as an engine swap car. Still no way to tell without looking at the casting number, which is about impossible to see when the engine's in the car.

 

Thanks for the feedback. It is claimed to be a Canadian car from original purchase, so it would not surprise me if we had the option of T-tops/350 while our friends south of the border did not (much like the '81 Camaro 35/4-speed combo that was only available in Canada).

I'll try and get the VIN, and look for the body tag when I go see the car on Saturday. Where is the body tag that would list the CC1 option?

The T-tops sure look factory to me, and the engine shot I have looks very original, too, but of course that's hard to say.

 

That probably explains it, Canadian car. If that's the case, then there should be an RPO for that as well, and more than likely a few metric instead of English measurements printed on various parts of the car. No idea what the RPO for a third gen would be, although I can say that C5 Corvettes used a Z49 RPO for Canada Export (we've had a few of those at my work). You'll want to see CC1 and L98 on that tag in addition to the Canada Export RPO (hopefully someone can provide that).

What you're looking for is the RPO sticker, as the actual stamped body tags were long gone by 1992. I believe your sticker should be on the inside lid of the locking left rear storage bin inside the car. Earlier models had them on the inside of the center console lid, but I think they figured out sometime during the 1991 model year run that the rear storage bin was a better location as many people were breaking/swapping/losing console lids on 1985-90's by then (like mine that has no RPO sticker anywhere thanks to the moron that swapped my console lid for another broken one).

Don't let the engine shot fool you -- there are no readily identifiable external differences between the GTA's standard 305 TPI and the optional 350 TPI. Only the casting number will tell.

If everything checks out, you're looking at a very rare car. Probably still not desirable enough to make it worth substantially more than an identically optioned LB9 305 car, but still very interesting/rare.

 

Cool, thanks for the direction on the sticker. Why they put such valuable information on a non-permanent part of the car is beyond me, though! Even the rear compartment covers could be swapped pretty easily or broken off. The firewall seems like a much more logical place.

Anyway, at least I know where to look! That's also interesting that the 305 and 350 look the same. Huh. I'll be very interested to see the VIN, then. He just called it an "LT1", doesn't refer to the actual size (but LT1 implies a 350).

I would have thought that a 350-powered car would be worth quite a bit more than 305, no? I can see the T-tops not adding much to a 350 car's value, though; I'm not sure what drives values of 3rdG cars, but I'd have thought engine, WS6, and general equipment, much like 2ndG cars (minus a bandit edition, of course LOL).

 

Some people don't know what they have had no matter how long they have owned it!
They see the TPI and call it a LT1. LT1 is way different! Don't see those until the fourth gens.
If it does not have that electric water pump with the distributor behind it then that is not a LT1.

Also, I cannot say as to years but I know they could be got on earlier than that Bird Camaros, but you could get a 350 and T-tops but were limited to the low output 350. That just meant a single cat instead of dual making for 10 less ponies.

Almost forgot, if the RPO code sticker is still on the car you can look decode by going here and looking them up.
http://www.c2e.info/rpocodes/

 

It's hard to say what will make these cars valuable in the future. Most arent too valuable just yet (Except for a few limited editions, such as the 1989 Turbo trans-am) Rarity will most likely drive the prices up in the future, but not for a decade or so, I think.

 

If I were you I would just drive the car and if you like it then buy it. The only reason I say that is more than likely it's a 305. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't not buy it because it's not a 350 t-top as I'm sure it will be almost impossible to find if there is one, however I would check the VIN like was said above and use it for a bargaining tool. I wouldn't worry to much about value right now as I wouldn't say these cars aren't terribly desirable yet, however in the future I would think a GTA would be worth more than a regular Trans Am but only time will tell, kind of from what I have seen these cars have already hit rock bottom and are starting to increase in value but it's hard saying how valuable they will be. But no matter what engine is in that car it looks like a nice car that's been kept up really nice let us know if you get it.

 

Thats a good point,
If the car is all original you already caught the seller in a lie by saying it has a LT1.
You just go and look and be like "Ahhhh, that is not a LT1! Its just a Gen1 TPI "
Then if you see it is a 305 start up the water works. Have a tear run down your cheek and just show how you're heart broken.... then offer around 60% of the asking price!
Practice in the mirror as timing is crucial

 

The great debate continues!

As stated above, the only way to know for sure is to see the build sheet. Check the casting numbers to tell if it is a 350, that's the best way to tell it from a 305 other than dial boring it, and by then it is too late, you already own it. If this guy said it is an LT-1, the red flags would be in my mind already! He clearly doesn't know what he has! I personally don't believe they ever made the combo you described, I have never saw real "proof". Some of the people who state they own this combo on the boards have never been able to produce a build sheet when questioned by other members. Not flaming anyone, and I could be wrong, but I would like to see it in black and white. Chances are the car you are looking at is a 305/t-tops or a 350 swap out.

But who cares about all that, if you like that is all that matters!

Good luck, keep us posted!

 

post this in the history forum, you will receive more informed answers.

 

That Made Me ROFLMAO

 

In GTAs, the 350/700R4 combo was not uncommon, even with t-tops.

T-tops+350=common build.
Convertible+350=no verified factory built cars.

For a 91, there is a pretty good chance that compnine will have that VIN, unlike my 87 GTA. They don't have the earlier VINs.

If you can find the RPO codes, L98=350, LB9=305. There were almost twice as many 350 '91 GTAs than there were 305 '91 GTA. And look for Y84. No Y84=Not a GTA.