Rabbitt

I have a some questions before I start going to town on my IROC (and im sure i will have more after I get into it), so im just gonna make one thread and hope to dear *** people answer me.


How do I remove all of the ground efx/ bumper covers? I have looked for posts and I havent found anything that helps me.

I can get all but a couple bolts on the front bumper cover but i cant see how to get the top two bolts on both sides (no room). I havent really attacked the back bumper yet but I figured it would ask first.

When i go to sand down all of the fiberglass/plasic parts, would just using 320 grit discs with my D/A sander be sufficient? Or is there something else i should do to prep those parts?

When i spray my epoxy primer, do i apply it to the fiberglass parts as well as the metal? Or do i just spray the regular primer onto fiberglass?

What quantities should I have for my liquids? This is what i am planning on getting from HOK (please correct me if I am off):

1Gallon of epoxy primer (+catalyst)
1Gallon of regular white primer
1Gallon of medium dry reducer
1Gallon of base coat (still trying to decide on which paint)
1Gallon of clear coat

I just wanna make sure im not shorting myself..
I really wanna do a black pearl paintjob but I just wont have the money to buy the extra liquid (gallon of black paint - $113 + gallon of midnight blue pearl paint - $214)

DanTheMan_smlk

good luck with it..

stalin05

on the back bumper you will have to remove your tail lights to see the plastic push screws that hold it on. ide say theres probably 7-8 on top, and maybe 5-6 on bottem.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

For a pearl paintjob you'll typically just get the pearl in the color you want which is about $20 and add it to the clear, so you'd just have to buy black basecoat and blue pearl, or blue basecoat and black or graphite pearl.... a little extra clear wouldnt hurt.

VILeninDM

Kinda funny that you are going to prep/paint the car "this week." What about next week, the one after that and months of july and august, few months after that and 2006?

I am doing the same thing to my car and just started this stuff myself.

Before you rush into it:
1) Do you have a good compressor? You need a lot of air and you can't wait for typical compressor to sit there and catch up. Once you start spraying color/clear it will have to be done in one session.

2) What gun are you planning on using. A friend of mine gave me a very nice looking HVLP gun from advance auto, made by AmPro. After asking around I found out that gun at best can only lay down primer and it was $100. I know have a second gun for bc/cc made by DeVilbiss

3) Are you concerened with moisture problems? When air leaves the gun it decompresses and cools down. This cooling effect will convert any vapor in the lines into liquid at a very bad time.

4) Where are you going to spray? Do you have intake/exhaust fans? How are you going to breath? Either need a fresh air system (what I eventually decided to get), or you need charcoal masks. The problem with the masks is once you open the elements they are good for 40 hours. If you work on your car for several months, that's a lot of filters you may end up buying and they are not cheap. Also if filter is bad, you will get no indication.

5) how are you controlling the dust and **** in the air. And yes, you also can't say ****, but "shist" is completely legal.

6) lighting. How much light do you have? btw, there is no such thing as too much light when doing body work

Bottom line, if you want to do things right, it might cost a little more than anticipated. My girlfriend, hasn't seen the credit card bill this month. She will kill me. At that point, extra 200 bucks on paint, really wouldn't seem like a big deal. Especially since you do it once and keep your car forever (hopefull) with exactly the color you've always wanted.

This is my booth. It took us about 3 months to actually build it.


So back to your car... ground effects for the most part come off by unscrewing things. Most of it is straight forward. The bolts you are talking about (if I got you right, its the ones holding the fender to the nose piece) can be taken out with a really long extension and possibly one of those flex joint things, forgot what they are called. You might also need a deep socket because I think the bolt is kinda longish, but I took mine off a year ago. You should be able to reach inside the fender over the wheel opening.

Don't know about you, but when I took my gfx's off, I found a ton of rust right under them for a car that I was considering a pretty good condition. I will be buying different doors from a southern car and will have to cut out metal in both quarters.

If you are stripping the paint, I would use 80 grit on metal and then 120 before priming. I am sure it is similar for plastic. Use 120 see how that is. If too slow go lower, if not stay with 120. Don't forget that plastic will need flex additive in the primer/bc/cc.

Have you talked with a body/paint shop people locally. I guess it depends on the store, but at the place I go to, regularly, the guys are very knowledgable. They will tell you exactly what chemicals you need, how much you will need and how to use them. Basically when you buy paint at these prices, you are also paying for support so ask them if you have any doubts and always make sure you get the tech sheets.

And before you even pick up a sander. Make sure you wash/scrub every inch of your car with soap and then again with wax and tar remover (aka, solvent-based surface prep) If surface has contamination like oil or grease and you start sanding, you will rub that stuff right into the sand scratches and it will end up under your primer.

There is probably more, but I think I've said enough for now. And yeah, I am learning this stuff myself, so anything you read here, take with a grain of salt (as you should with just about everything else you read online).

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

VL made some very good points, though one you dont want to take is the "flex additive" its only in the paint for about 24 hours, its designed to let you spray a flexible bumper etc with it off the car and then get it back on without the paint cracking, once the times up its gone just like the reducer in your basecoat.

VILeninDM

Apparently autobodystore.com server has gone down. But if you google for "paint plastic flex additive" you'll find plenty of info. didn't feel like copying links

Clear coat is urethane (sp?) based, which is very hard when fully cured. On plastic parts especially the front bumper you want the additive (and it will stay in the paint) so that when you hit something or something hits you, the paint will flex with the surface. Instead of cracking.

I also followed a few of those google links and apparently there is also a plastic prep you have to do which helps primer adhere to the surface (don't know if you need it if old paint is still on the piece being painted, but I'd strip old paint anyway because GM paint from those years is kinda questionable). Then they make special flexible primers specifically for plastic parts. And then someone said they only add flex additive to the clear coat, but not base coat.

As far as fiberglass, I don't think it is any special from regular metal body paints. The thing you have to make sure is to clean the surface 7 times. Apparently they use something silicone based when working with fiberglass and if any trace of that stuff is left when you start spraying paint, you will get fish eyes in your finish.

Everyone does things differently. I am giving my view, which is based on everything I've read for the last year, so I am just saying what a lot of experienced people out there have said directly or indirectly to me.

Rabbitt

Z28*****- I wanna go with all HOK products and 2 ounces of blue pearl is $70.. and they say use 1-2oz per quart of clear....

VILeninDM - Well, starting this week, going start tearing down tomorrow morning, dad and i are going to build the paint shop during the week.. so on and so forth. But it isnt (also see: cant) going to take me months to finish it, I have no work for almost two weeks (lost some hours so im going to take advantage and try to get this done now).

1) Yes. My dad has a good compressor.
2) Devillebliss Finish Line III. Same gun JeffW used for his primer/paint/clear
3) Its not too aweful humid right now. If i was doing this in about a month then i would be worried.
4) Gonna spray in my dad's garage. I have the paintshop and intake/exhaust air and filtration mapped out. I also have a respirator on hand.
5) With dust, I have learned a few tricks from people i have talked to or read. Somethings about hair spray on the plastics of the paint shop really collect the dust.
6) I am going to borrow a few spot lights from friends and family.

Trust me, i plan on scrubbing and wiping with surface prep. Im not looking to have the best paint job around, but i just want it to look nice..
I also have been told by a few ppl that i wont really need flex additive for my plastics and i cant even find it at HOKpaint.com.


Thanx guys, keep it coming!

VILeninDM

cool, looks like you are a lot more prepared for this thing than I was. I was planning to start prep/repair/paint back in april. Then one thing here, one there, next thing I know it is June.

Then again it is nice to actually have time to work on this stuff. I've got two jobs, a girlfriend and a bird. Between those, if I go to garage twice a week, I am lucky.

Good luck, keep us posted.



Hairspray eh... that's interesting, I was just going to wet everything down with water before spraying.

Rabbitt

Yah, my fiance really wants me to get this paintjob done.. trust me.. lol
I really should find another job before this (or at least more hours at work) and such because im kinda tight on money as it is, but im gonna try to get this done as quick as i can while keeping the quality up. As soon as it is done, i need to do some power-job-hunting, lol.
I read about the hairspray thing on here. Some people claim that it will help attract the dust to the plastic and keep it there.. I figure it is worth a shot. Im also going to cover all of the cement floors with drop cloths, so i dont have to worry about dust comimg up from there when i spray..
I am so looking forward to getting this done so I'm not playing into the hillbilly thing anymore (driving a shistty* camaro). I also want to have it done before July 5 - going down to see the future father-in-law (a mechanic), and I haven't shown him my car yet.

The only thing that i can hope for is that there isnt a ****pile of rust under the side-skirts.

Btw, does a gallon of each seem like enough? I have no idea how much paint it literally takes per coat, so...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Im not really sure where you come up with 2oz for a quart of clear, I went back to make sure that I wasnt imagining things and sure enough its what I thought. They suggest 3/4 to 1 teaspoon for each quart, i've sprayed some with their pearls and if you dumped 2oz of black pearl into a quart of clear you could about spray it over a white base and still have a black paintjob.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

A gallon of HOK stuff will be fine, their base covers well, I would suggest using their KOseal, in black if you are going to do a black base, it will let the paint cover awesome, 2 coats and you'll have coverage just fine, another if you really feel like it.

Rabbitt

hehe, sorry, i guess i was looking at their ice pearl.. 2 oz of dry pearl at www.hokstore.com is only $18.. hmmm

Rabbitt

ouch, i forgot about hardener... its gonna cost me $100 more than i originally thought just because i forgot to add in the 2 quarts of hardener... EDIT:: Nm, i guess i did add (when i had this all added up before) the hardener, i just had two epoxy primers on the list...

I have a question tho.. Does HOK make a primer that does both the epoxy and regular primer's jobs? so i would only have to lay down one primer instead of two?
There is my list on www.hokpaint.com

EDIT:: Just realized i have my epoxy on there twice... whew... disregard that please

VILeninDM

I also didn't see any filler on your list. I guess if you body is perfect, you wouldn't have to worry about it. On my car I have few dings here and there that I will have to fill.

The reason you want to do 2 different primers is because epoxy is stronger, harder and will protect the metal a lot better than urethane primer (i.e. 2K). But because epoxy is hard, it is not very friendly to sand paper when it comes to leveling. So what people do is spray 1-2 coats of epoxy and then spray 2-3 coats of 2K primer. 2K primer is softer and very sandable so you only need few passes of the block to level the surface.

Once you have everything leveled (might want to invest in 3M dry guide coat, or some kind of paint for guide coating), then you spray thin, over reduced coat of epoxy to seal everything (most epoxy primers can be used as sealers, but you have to check the one you are going to use).

Then again if you have black primer and painting things black, I am not sure if sealer coat is required. I know some people don't do sealer coats at all and others swear by them.

If your surface is already straight everywhere to your liking, you should be able to do epoxy and then bc/cc right on top of it.

Rabbitt

Ah.. Thanx for clearing that up for me. I am using body filler in a couple of places - i also have a few door dings.
I plan on buying SEM sprayable guide coat.. but would it show up on black primer?
Since the epoxy is used to seal everything, would i need to use it on the plastic/fiberglass parts? Could i just spray said parts with the black primer, block sand until smooth, and be ready for bc/cc?

VILeninDM

as far as sealing epoxy, I don't see how metal would be different from plastic or fiberglass.

One thing I am not sure about is if you even need to seal. Usually sealer (just like when you paint drywall) helps the color stay on the surface instead of being absorbed by the primer. So with sealer you would get good coverage with 2 coats, but without sealer you may need 4 coats of paint. Since more coats of paint cost more in money and time, people use sealer.

But when you spray black bc on top of black primer.... hard to say.

And I actually had the same thought about the guide coat the other day. My primer is also black, so I would hope guide coat is made in different colors (like white). Check on autobodystore.com, those guys know a lot more about this stuff.

3rdgenstm

The clear will be the hardest thing to master spraying. I found that if you increase the pressure on the HVLP gun, it will flow out much nicer or you can also use a regular gun for this. When I sued the HVLP gun, I had terrible orange peel, but I thought it would flow out. A regular spray gun has enough pressure behind it to really make it flow out. Just depends on how much sanding and buffing you want to do.

Just my experience.

BTW. I started the process in February. It's mid- june now. I still have about 2 weeks left.

Take your time, don't rush it. Use your head more than your body when you are painting and it will come out much nicer.

Last thing: Prep is everything. Do it right the first time.

Rabbitt

I have a question about removing doors... There is one bolt I cant really get to... do i HAVE to remove the fenders to remove the doors?

VILeninDM

I just removed my doors yesterday. Already had the fenders off so it took all of 10 minutes. I think I read somewhere recently people taking them off with the fender, but don't know exactly what the trick was.

Removing the fenders shouldn't be that bad if you do have to do it. It is mostly 10mm (or 12mm) bolts all around. Plus if you've gone this far, you can take the fenders off, clean up the frame and apply zero rust before putting fenders back on.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Heres one for you since you are so persistent about the flex agent VILeninDM

KEVIN G.

Well, in the example, we have a couple issues here.
First, the DFX hardeners are too fast and brittle, I wouldn't use them on ANY plastic part.
Second, DX 814 Is the old school retarding agent that many on thes boards are referring to as flex agent.
It is garbage. Unfortunately, It is what most of the misinformed masses recognize, and is all they know. I say again...MOST QUALITY paint companies now offer a TRUE RESIN FLEX, it is thick and sticky and very effective. And VIL, you go right on preaching about the use of flex. I wouldn't paint any plastic part without it...Especially if it were my own.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Thats quite a funny statement especially when it lists mix ratios for DCX hardeners, the DFX is their "supercharged" crazy fast stuff and the sheet specifically tells you not to use it on a flexible part.

KEVIN G.

Yep, missed that. It was part of my PPG training. But that's exactly what I said. It's too fast/brittle.
I am not familiar with the DCX hardeners, but I reiterate, The 814 is garbage and not what is truly a "flex agent" these days

VILeninDM

Thanks Kevin. I really don't like getting into all of this stuff. The only reason I mentioned anything is because Rabbitt asked. I've been reading body repair/repaint posts, boards and books for close to a year preparing for now, when I am finally starting work on my own car. Everything I do will be done so that end result will last as long as possible. This car already has become another family member and it is not going to go anywhere so having invested already over a year into it, I want to make sure it lasts.

Having said this, I've seen numerous people, those with 20-35 years in body repair business say that flex agent and flexible primers and fillers is a good thing.

1) It will stay flexible and will help keep thing from cracking in the long run, even if the first year after the repaint everything looks fine.
2) Let's say z28 is right and you don't need it if the body panel is on the car. So you paint it and then while you are still doing other repairs, you realize you do need to take the nose piece off. Now you will be kicking yourself because by the time nose is back on, you will already have 5 cracks. Or you do use the agent and don't have any problems.
3) Statistically, while some people aren't too crazy about flex agents, I never met a single person who said it was a bad thing. On top of that people, who I have nothing but respect in this business, recommend that you use it.
4) I'd like to think that paint that is more flexible, even if it doesn't have to be, will deal with stones and what now way easier than regular paint simply because softer surface will better descipate (sp?) the impact

Rabbitt, z28 the only thing I am presenting here is statistics and opinions of quite a few different individuals (most of whom do run their own auto repair businesses). At the end, each one of us makes his own decision and that's fine. As I've stated before, I've never worked on a single car and I really don't know anything about how this stuff is done in reality, but I have done some homework and I know I'll be putting that stuff on my car.

z28, I will respect your opinion because everything counts, but just for reference how long you've been in body repair professionally? Rabbitt stated he already made up his mind on this, and until this whole argument I wasn't even going to bother changing his mind.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I've painted one full car, and a lot of little panels, that car lasted quite some time before being totalled without the paint cracking, the information I got on the flex agents was from the local auto body store I get my supplies at. There is a down side to using it, extra cost for no reason. The flexibility according to these people who dont have stuff shipped in, and carry all of the lines of PPG's products, is gone within 24 or 48 hours, which I do not remember, it is simply to allow you to paint a panel that is going to be flexed lots and install it the next day without it cracking, after that its outgassed and gone.

If he wants to use it sure its up to him, however I believe its use is quite overrated and mostly a big spoof, maybe it was more important with older paints, and todays materials end up more flexible, either way I know I wont be using any on my paintjob and im sure it will last.

Rabbitt

well, to be totally honest, i just couldnt find it on the hokpaint website... I was planning on looking around here and asking the fine ppl at hok what their opinion is... trust me, my mind hasnt been made up.. i ordered my paint today (grand total of $588) and i forgot all about asking about a flex agent.. i will email hok now and see what they say....

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Eh go figure



Why am I not surprised ?

KEVIN G.

C'mon ****... be realistic, What did you expect their site to say??
Maybe it shoulda went somethin' like this??
"Our paint is WAYYHEYHEEEEEYYYYYYYY too brittle to keep up with todays technology, and the automotive proffessionals' discerning standards!!!!
I've painted hundreds, if not in the thousands, of cars, and I'm sayin' again... Did my ealier post not get through to you?
There was a time that I believed all of that same **** everyone is spoutin'... Then I became educated...same as VIL, albeit mine was required by the job. Put it this way, Why are the paint manufacturers spending millions of dollars in research into NEW flex technologies if it's such a waste of time?? I don't think it's to increase revenues... They could just keep those ol' 814 type products out there and let it be... The newer elastomeric flex agents are an entirely different animal.
Different scenario...Your 2 week old '05 Saturn (which is mostly plastic...) just got WHACKED in the parking lot at your local Walmart, by somebody's grandma. The front cover is shredded...(plastic) The fender is ripped wide open......(plastic) The front doorskin is gone...(plastic). All need to be replaced. Your insurance company's footin' the bill. You take it to two shops. Both write a virtually identical sheet (estimate) on the car, Both Use genuine GM parts....EXCEPT, Shop B has taken the time to explain that they will use a true resin flex agent in the sealer and clearcoat to protect the car from minor parking damages in the future.
Shop A has told you that "it's not a problem, we dont need to use flex agent...It doesn't do any good anyways..."
Where do YOU take the car.

Rabbitt

ouch..

Well, i just just took off my ground efx today.. Found a 3 inch rust hole on the drivers side fender... pretty bummed about that, cause now i have to bondo that up ... just kidding.. What should i expect to pay for a decent fender at a junk yard?

VILeninDM

what if you just cut around the hole until you have healthy metal and just weld a patch into that area? If it doesn't come out perfect, who cares? It'll be under gfx's anyhow.

I am planning to do that with one of the gfx holes in my quarter panel.

Did you take off door and quarter gfx's yet? That's where I found most of my rust.

VILeninDM

http://dxm004.homeip.net/gallery/vie...05&id=IMG_0953

Rabbitt

i would, but on that same fender, someone tried to jack the car up there, so the fender is dented and crinkled there anyway.. and the rust under my qp ground efx isnt as bad, not through anyway.. just gonna sand it down...

Rabbitt

Well, I have the finalization to the flex additive arguement.. straight from the people at House of Kolor...

Our products do not require a flex additive

Sooo... I guess that means for the people that use house of kolor, the flex additive arguement has been settled.

Rabbitt

Paint came a couple of days ago..Didnt come with tech sheets so ima have to dl them tonight.
Unfortunately, im going to have to wait a couple of weeks to a month before i can start getting her painted... some unexpected bills with the plumbers came up...

I still need to buy:
Plastic & 2x4s
1.3 Fluid tip for my DeVilbliss Finishline III gun... i have 1.8 now, so that will work for my primer... (didnt notice what size I had when i bought the gun) and that costs $50.. the gun only cost $124 with its current fluid tip
Another quart of K-150 hardener.. Forgot that the Ko-Seal II requires about a quart per gallon of hardener..
New (well, used)fender
Some sanding discs, wax and grease remover, and some tack cloths

Rabbitt

this is the whole on my driver's side fender... if anyone has one in my area in good condition and feels they want donate...