WhiteKnight

So I got in a car accident which required quite a bit or repainting. On some of the plastic ground effects trim pieces that are made out of plastic, the paint has cracked abit n hairlined. The guy at the repair shop said that it was because the pieces weren't metal so they flex, therefore there's nothing they can do about the cracking. This doen't quite seem right, although I don't know much about paint. What do you guys think. Thanks

Dens71TA

iTrader: (5)

The painter should have used a flex agent on flexible parts. Sounds like you should find a new painter because this guy doesn't know what he's doing or too lazy.

philoldsmobile

absolutely.


also present the bill for having the GFX repainted to the 1st painter, because it was his neglegence / ignorance that caused the problem first time.

all plastics should have flexing agent added to the paint, even a dumbass like me knows that!!

Red Devil

Let's clarify something first. Did the crazing happen after the accident? If so, normal for a decent hit, no amount of flex additive is going to stop it.

Now the question is this... is the painter refusing to paint it? Is this an out of pocket job? The part has to be stripped in order to paint it again and it's a PITFA. Really it is. Then painting it isn't the easiest either, but if you find a really good painter, or get some really good paint, you won't even need the flex additive. Some systems may need it only in the undercoat, some may need it only in the topcoat, some in every stage, some none at all etc. When to use flex additive is not a clear-cut blanket answer anymore.

Red Devil

Pfff... what do you know, you drive on the wrong side of the road and like blood pudding!

WhiteKnight

hey! nothing wrong with brits... hmm fish n chips.... yum
anyways... i was just wondering about it, i have the receipt which says the paint is guaranteed for the life of the car, i just wanted to check.

the "crazing" or cracking happened after the accident when it was repainted.

So theres a flex agent. I shall have to go down and complain. Thank you sirs.

Red Devil

No, there does not have to be a flex agent necessarily.

What more than likely happened is your painter was lazy and probably didn't strip the old paint. It's like painting over crazed paint on fiberglass, it'll just come to the top.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

I heard they dont ever use flex additives any more

KEVIN G.

I understand that it was painted after an accident... did the insurance company pay them to repair it and refinish it?? If so, the shop should stand behind the repair.
If it's part of the estimate...They should have given you an itemized estimate, it's law. and they didn't do what they said...(repair the piece in question), Its fraud.
Did your ins. company refer you to the shop? If so, get them involved. I would use this as last step leverage... no shop would risk losing their program for the 100 or so bucks it would take to repair it.
All urethane parts SHOULD have flex agent. Most paint companies would not warranty the repair to the shop if flex was not used.
No, it doesn't NEED to be stripped to repair the part, only if it was peeling or previously painted without flex...We repair it just like any other panel, the damaged area only, which it sounds like they didn't do, hence the cracks.

Red Devil

Maybe in Michigan, do you happen to know the laws of all 50 states... not to mention the other countries in which people visit from that you so blithely just gave legal advise to. Let someone in the field help him there, or refer him to his state attorney general’s office. Armchair lawyers generally suck and are too ignorant of the law to offer any real legitimate advice.

Again, depends on the state. And even within each state it may even depend on the insurance co. You may be surprised how many times the insurance co. would take the shops side. You apparently would be surprised how many wouldn't give a crap either. Here in MA you get to be on an 'approved' list. Even if the shop isn't on that list, you can more than likely go to your preferred shop regardless if it's on the 'approved' list. Think an insurer gives a crap if you have a beef with the shop?

No, no, no. I've been painting these bumpers for almost 15 years with no flex additive, it -all- depends on the paint and how good you can shoot it. As a matter of fact most insurance co.'s won't even let it ride on the estimate, so much so that this was circulated fairly heavily within the industry. (This problem is probably the origin of the rumor you heard crazy3rdgen.)

And yes, it NEEDS to be stripped, well, if you plan on doing it –correctly-. You could paint with all the flex additive you want, but if the paint is thick or crazed, it's gonna crack, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. That used to be the 'trick' to painting them without the flexall, spray it thin. Same reason you have to strip a crazed paint on the plastic pigs, or even on metal for that matter, the crazing WILL come through.

KEVIN G.

Ok I"ll give you that... I don't know the laws in all 50 states. But I will assume that they are pretty close to MI... to protect the consumer.
I'm not giving LEGAL advice, I'm giving sound advice as an EXPERIENCED member of the auto body community...Not once did I say consult a lawyer or sue the shop.
My inference was to give the shop a chance to fix the problem... A courtesy that I always endorse. Too many people are quick to point an accusatory finger at the shop. When, in reality, it was probably just...missed.

I'm sorry but I believe I said that IF they are on the company's program, which means they are 'approved'. My shop is a 'preferred' shop for about 8 different insurance companies. I would not jeopardize any of them for a hundred or so bucks. Would you? if that were your bread and butter...As a technician, would you approve of your boss taking jobs out of the shop, when the industry as a whole is stagnating and claims are down 20% over the last year? (and of those 25% are total losses.)

I'm again sorry but you're wrong. they DO require flex if you want them to last. (I've posted heavily on the subject.)
I have many years experience as well, certified by GM, ICAR, ASE, PPG, ICI AUTOCOLOR, and STANDOX. years ago it WAS TRUE that it just evaporated and was only a retarding agent. AGAIN I SAY: this is not the case any more.."Spraying thin" is NOT THE KEY.
I agree Most insurance co's won't pay for the operation, let alone the material...but, as a tech how many operations do you perform that they don't pay for... on a daily basis? I've been there, my friend, and I fight with them every day.
Here I believe we are having a communication problem... I in no way shape or form am implying that we don't strip the REPAIR AREA ... I was under the assumption that you were stripping the ENTIRE piece. If this is the case, I apologize... You DO need to strip the AFFECTED/damaged areas, and feather the repair. But unless you plan on (again) doing things for free that the ins. co. won't pay...

Edit; I just read the link, VERY INFORMATIVE, I think you should re-read it. I also realize that I may come off as DO IT DO IT DO IT!!! I am not advocating overriding the paint companies P-sheets.
I have said in the past...MOST paint companies offer a TRUE RESIN FLEX these days. This is key.

WhiteKnight

ok well heres what happened. I got in the accident, and everything infront of the doors had to be repainted. and it would look wierd with half a car brand new paint, and the other half old n faded, so i got an estimate from em on how much it would cost to do the whole thing. so i got them to repaint the whole car. I have a piece of paper with my receipt stating that the paint is guranteed for the life of the car. Then when I asked he was like oh well blah blah its not metal so it flexes so i was like well whatever. But just thought I'd ask so that I can get it fixed. And doesnt really matter what the laws are in certain states, cuz I'm in Canada, but I'm sure its mostly the same. They had some other little things to fix in the paint. The car is actually at hteir shop right now. And if they dont fix them I'm going to call the better business organization and file a complaint.

WhiteKnight

oh ya, and the shop is a preffered shop of the Province's insurance company. All insurance around here is run by the Crown

orangetang

I inquired about flex agent when I was painting my car. Painters and paint suppliers al told me that flex agent was a thing of the past, so i didn't use it. The first minor bump ito my front bumper cracked and flexed about a 1/2 cubix foot of paint rright off the car.

Doesn't hurt to try the stuff. I'll be repaintintg the car now becuase of this, and i'll be looking for some flex additives.

KEVIN G.

Well, you're kind of in a trick bag here... If they just quoted to refinish and clean up the car to match the finish of the repaired portion, they may not have even thought about taking it to the limits they should have, to make an extra nice job for you. The paint MAY BE guaranteed but look at the limits of the guarantee.
Again I say, look at the itemized estimate. How did they present to you the repairs in question?
EXACTLY!!! Thank You!!!!! For the extra few bucks that it would take to invest in the material, why not give it a shot.
Why take the chance and risk having to repaint??

WhiteKnight

It cost me just over 2000, that covers from the doors back, as the rest of the paint was covered by the insurance for the accident.

Lifetime Guarantee

For the life of the vehicle on which the repairs have been completed, while in possession of the registered owner as indicated below, *company* guarantees all body and paint repairs to be of a quality equal to generally acceptable industry standards and against any defects to workmanship or materials unless caused by or resulting from unreasonable use, maintenance or care of the vehicle.

I'm assuming not painting a car properly is below generally acceptale industry standards.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Hey Kevin G...where in Michigan are you? I need to get some paint work done on my IROC.

James

Red Devil

Your sound advice is, and can easily be construed as, legal advice, telling someone to consult a lawyer or sue really isn’t, in and of itself, legal advice. Trust me, my background is the legal field (autobody was years ago… well PAID autobody was years ago. ).

Regardless, your reasoning was sound in that consulting with the shop is probably the path of least resistance in order to correct the problem. As for the people who love to accuse the shops, well, I remember the crap from the late 80’s and early 90’s… consumers sometimes have looooong memories. All that can be done is convince them one at a time until there is a concerted effort in the industry to correct that problem. The Maccos of the world don’t help any either.

Yes, but in some states the insurer’s hands are tied. MA is probably the biggest example of such a state. Didn’t realize the autobody industry had stagnated and shrunk that much, however, historically it has always been very sensitive to the effects of a slowed or recessive economy. I’d expect to see those numbers climb in concurrence with any increase of the economic fortune of the country.

Yep, I think we were both a little unclear in that regard, the affected area, not the entirety of the pc., in most cases anyway.


Yes, you did come off as a DO IT!! guy , which hstorically I never respond well to on these boards (one of my many flaws), however… even in the same post earlier you said…

And that answer is wrong, for the same reason as stated in the article*. Required? NO! Depends? YES! I’m not advocating their non-use, but it’s not something that MUST be done to get a good job…longevity is another argument, and again, I bow to what the paint manufacturers suggest with their products… probably is a requirement for someone without a lot of experience shooting though…

If it’s called for use it, but if not, there is a reason, and it’s more than likely something in the paint’s formulation. The paint companies do have an idea of what they are doing.

You’ll kindly note I did say “used to be the trick” It has been a while since I earned a paycheck painting… quite a while.

*-

KEVIN G.

We are located in fine farm country ...smack dab in the middle of the thumb...Where the men are men.....and so are the women!
C'mon over, My guys do an excellent job, and these days in the industry...we can use all the work we can get.
PM me if you're serious...even if your not, I'd be happy to give any assistance I can.
Yes!!! most definitely!!!
I'm glad our impasse came to a mutual understanding of where we each are coming from... Sometimes in my passion for the profession, I may seem a bit too "by the book" (My techs will tell you I'm a bit **** that way.) And I think I've probably alienated a few fellow thirdgenners. But I believe in a quality job as often as I can give it. My philosophy, when I was spraying, was to try to treat it like it was a job for a friend, family member , or even my own. (Which is hard to do when the insurance companies tie you down and kick you with their pointy-toed shoes!!!!)

HalfInchWrench

Any paint I have ever seen cracked like that is not fixable. The spider webs usually go right into the panel and you can never fix that. You can paint over it till the next time it's touched.

It will break again.

The fix is to replace the nose or rear end. End of story. Grind it down to the bare neoprene or what ever fancy plastic it is but it will never be the same, Replace it if it's got spider web cracks. You will never get rid of them.


You body shop folks should know better. Spider cracks are not worth fixing unless you are in the spider crack bidness.

KEVIN G.

Please don't make comments on something you know nothing about.

HalfInchWrench

I hope for your sake you are not talking to me bright pink interior boy.

HalfInchWrench

Not many cars aroud that the spider web cracks are just in the paint. They are not. They are right thru. And they will come back. Many of the folks posting here are full of it. If the cracks are in the composite facia. Then it's time to buy a new facia. The body shop guys will promise it won't come back but when it does. their promise isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I've seen it more times than I'd like to mention. I hate seeing folks ripped off.

Red Devil

Not true, well maybe true in your experience, but then I’d have to say that that experience was very limited.

I learned how to fix crazing on plastic pigs (well actually the first two were a plastic pig and a torn down camaro). You can't replace those ‘parts’ without costing few grand, and the owners would have probably sued us if we told them we had to remove their car's bodies to replace them. Though I would have LOVED to see the look on their faces.

As for the urethane et al, still untrue. Was untrue in the 70's, was untrue in the 80's, 90’s and is still untrue to this day. Unless there is something structurally wrong with the part (much like you see on the typical wrap around rear aero wing), you can strip it down, prep and paint. Hell, I have a front GTA nose that’s been hit by countless wiffle *****, and run ins by my kids -after it was painted –after it was backed into and flaked off and crazed. I’ll grant you I did strip it completely (this goes back to the ‘affected area’, it’s not only what you can see upon initial inspection) and I am a bit **** in my prep. Biggest screw up area in painting is the prep IMNSHO. Screw that and your screwed, end of story.


Kevin, wasn't an impasse, just clarification. I still will strip beyond the obvious affected area because I've found that many times, primarily on fiberglass, the crazing will come up further on. Typically, I'll strip the whole damn pc. - if it's mine- as it's easier than doing one section at a time as the crazing surfaces. I'm lazy. :shrug:

Red Devil

Really? Full of what? Knowledge? If the part is damaged under the paint, it becomes readily apparent as you strip it.

I don't think I've -EVER- seen any shop try and 'fix' a urethane type part. Only dolts like Shane do that crap.

What the hell are you reading in order to come to the conclusion that we were endorsing the repair of a part like that?!?!

KEVIN G.

Gee! I'm sorry, I didn't knowI was dealing with someone who knew so much about paint...
I guess all my training and experience are worthless too!!!!
HEY BRANIAC!!!!!!! I have been fixing cars for better than 20 years! People trust me with their LIVES EVERYDAY!!!! EXCUSE ME??!!!! I can repair your car to make it safe for your wife...your kids...your mom and dad... I need to know what a good repair is...I need to be able to determine the quality of a weld, and IF it will hold up in another accident, and whether or not to replace a frame rail so your car's air bag timing isn't compromised... I can be HELD RESPONSIBLE IN A COURT OF LAW, for shabby workmanship of any given technician!!!!!!!!!! I think I know how to repair a bit of cracked paint and plastic.
The only thing that damages plastic is you!!!! A quality repair will hold, unless it gets hit there again...IN FACT, in many cases the tear will be around the repair, on a PREVIOUSLY undamaged area. instead of ripping in the same spot. We have repaired, many times over, the SAME bumper on return customers' cars, in different areas, for different accidents, and had no problems whatsoever.