87CamLT

I am looking to buy a driver. I was looking for a low mileage original GTA or IROC with TPI and t-tops. I can't seem to find a seller. I am now considering a 1991 Trans Am at a local Pontiac dealership. The free carfax report says it is a GTA w/ a 305TBI. They want $4,000. It has a repaint with paint pealing on the nose, missing all emblems, damage to the right fender ( the rest of the body looks good from pics but I will need to look at it in person, ok interior, and 113,xxx on the odometer. I sent an e-mail offering $2,000 if I like the car when I see it. I now think that 2,000 is two much. If I buy it I am planning on taking the motor out and having it rebuilt (Praying that the trans is ok), replacing the fender (I have no clue on how to reattach ground effects) and bring it somewhere to get the fender and nose painted. A few of the problems I would have is that I never did an engine before, I am mechanically inclined, but like to see it done before I attempt it ( I would need to borrow a hoist, taking it out doesn’t bother me, its putting it back together, the cam really scares me). Would need to find out how to clean the TBI (rather not rebuild for the sake of time and fact that I never seen one done before. I would like to set it up stock and would need it together by the end of June passing NJ inspection. I would be using money from my recent car accident (I was hit in a Pitt maneuver by a female driver, she ran off but I had three witness who pulled over and helped me out of the wreck). The car doesn’t have T-Tops and is missing two of the WS-6 center caps. I want to turn it into a decent looking reliable driver.
So my question is: Is paying two grand for this car two much considering the condition and what I want to do with it?

ES87iroc

If it's a 91 with a 305 TBI, it's not a Trans Am or a GTA. 305 TPI was standard for the T/A in that year, and 350 TPI was standard for the GTA. (optional 305 TPI)

2k might not be too bad, but it's impossible to tell without at least a few pictures of it...

87CamLT

I am sooo happy. I looked up the vin myself. It is a W code (Trans Am) and the motor is F (305 TPI). Carfax showed it as a TBI. 2,000 dosen't sound two bad now. Still would want to rebuild the motor. I need to find out more about cleaning/rebuilding the TPI unit. What rear would the car have? 305 TPI W/ auto trans. I will try to post a pic.

87CamLT

Here is a pic. I circled the damaged area.

87CamLT

I didn't relize it would post so fuzzy.

NastyL98_T/A

you better ****** it up, I'll buy it for 2K

smokefan

looks like a good deal to me

nosaint

A dealer drop 2G in his asking price? ?
Dont see that happening but good luck......

f355bird

iTrader: (2)

I agree if hes asking 4K i dont think he will take 2K thats low ballin

87CamLT

I don't know, I may be able to get the price down. The "high" millage, pealing paint. Plus I will have cash waving in their face, I might be able to pull it off. I just have to get a ride down there.

87CamLT

I went down last night to look at the car. It had original paint, one fender needed to be replace the other might be fixable, rear quarter panels were hit and those areas are rusting. The ground effect on the passenger side door had a chunk missing from it, The windshield has what looks like glue from a glue gun sloppily applied all around the top of the windshield (There was evidence of water leakage) Both head lights and taillights don't light up at all (Although one headlight pops up and the other with some help). The interior was pretty nice. It was missing the lid for the glove box, the driver side power window only goes down quarter of the way and was really slow, the horn was rewired to work off a really tacky aftermarket button that was attached to the steering wheel airbag cover.
The engine was steamed cleaned, but I still found evidence of a small oil leak (It looks like it was stopped though). The car started right up and the oil gauge read normal. Car idled at about 1,100 RPM. I couldn’t here any nose from the motor (Valve tap, etc). It had a new looking cat and aftermarket exhaust (heard a lot of popping when revved, but it started to stop after a few min).
Overall I thought the car was fixable and could fix it how I want it for about 2,500-3,000. The salesman watched me inspect the car and even after I pointed out all the defects he said the owner of the dealership told him twice that the price cannot be dropped on the car. He then told me the owner never drops prices. I told him if he changes his mind I will take it for $2,000 and offered my phone number. He told me not to bother because he won't change his mind. I also found it was not a GTA, but a Trans Am. I just don't feel like $4,000 is a justifiable price, especially if there are electrical problems.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

All those problems and I wouldn't pay more than $1500. Around here you can get great 3rd gens for about $3-4K. No painting, engine problems, and full interior.

ES87iroc

Sounds like a hacked up POS, keep looking...

87CamLT

I just e-mailed the dealership today. Here is a copy:

I went down last night to see this car. I don't know what salesperson I talked to, but I got conflicting stories. Who ever I talked to on the phone said I could get it 3500 out the door, the salesperson said 3,995. The way I figure it $3,500 out the door makes the price $3,190. Subtract tax of $210 plus $100 for title, and licenses fee from $3,500.The car needs over 2,635 dollars worth of work. This is not including the problem with the head lights. The one pops but none of the lights outside were working? Maybe it is just a fuse, but that needs to be checked.
1. Two used Fenders $250
2. One used right door ground effect $75
3. Two center caps $120
4. One used console lid $100
5. Steering wheel $40 (Need it because of the rigged horn)
6. New left side mirror glass $20
7. Headlight repair kit $20
8. Power window motor for left door $260
Windshield weather-stripping and reset $ 100- Up

Paint and miscellanies body work will run at least $1,500- $2,000
Getting the new steering wheel put on, horn fixed right and air bag checked and or replaced will run at least $150-200.

All my prices come from Hawks Third Gen Parts, Top Down Solutions, and Classic Industries. Theses prices don’t include shipping and consider the fact I will do almost all work on my own. We are talking a total of over $2,635 in repair cost.
Assuming there isn’t any electrical problem with the headlights and you get them working and I like the test drive I will offer $1,200 cash.
Thank You for your time,
-Guy

ES87iroc

Be ready for them to giggle in your general direction...

87CamLT

They called me right up and thanked me 4 times (sarcastically) for my offer, but that that is what they gave someone on trade in for the car. They said I should come up with something a little better. I think in a week if I still want to attempt to fix this car I will offer $1,500, if they don't take it I will call it quits on this one.

ES87iroc

They are absolutly full of POOP. There is NO way they gave someone $3300 and are reselling it for $3300.

87CamLT

I know. This dealership is a joke and their salespeople are almost the worse I have ever dealt with. It surprises me because all the GM dealerships I have dealt with are usually really good. My worst experiences were at those "buy here, pay here" places.

White93z34

iTrader: (1)

they won't take it, they will sell it to a kid with more moeny then brains.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I got new fenders for $75 each from my mechanic (he ordered them), pull the ground effect from a junkyard, $30 I'd guess, Center caps used on ebay for cheap, Console lid $20 on ebay, power window motor for $50 from autozone. You well overguessed almost everything. If you paint the whole care, then the $1500-2000 estimate is alright. Car isn't worth it unless you do all the work yourself and they aren't gonna kick much off.,

astoria18

I'd say keep looking. Someone, somewhere relitavely close by must be selling something that's in better shape for less money. And, chances are, there's more wrong with the car than you can see by spending 20 minutes looking at it.

87CamLT

Yes, Firebirdjosh. I did go with higher prices when looking for parts, anything to get the price where I want it on the car. I didn't make any of them up. They all match up with Hawks, Classic Industries and, TDS prices. More then likely I would find cheaper parts, but not enough to justify spending $4,000 on a car that is not clearly worth $4,000. I also would be doing most of the work my self. I have never taken a car to a shop except to get tires mounted and recall work done. I have done everything except building a motor (I have installed them complete) or rebuild any type of fuel injection system (excluding carburetors) on my 87 Camaro.

redraif

KEEP LOOKING! You can get a lower milege 4th gen for less then that! $1,500 is a more then reasonable offer for the car. They are idiots and are hoping to ride on the title wave sincce the cars are discoed now. Let them keep it!

jer4251

iTrader: (6)

i used to work at a dealership cleaning cars, i can say one thing, salesmen are pieces of $hit. they know somebody stupid will come along and pay what they want for it so they will keep holding out on you. and the more you call and email, the more they think you will reconcider your offer to a better one. Keep on looking and forget about that one, i've found so many cars i've wanted thinking its the best at the time but i'm glad i never buy any of them, another better one always comes along. you will know when you find the right car.

FAST RS

Keep lookin you will be able to find a car in better shape for there asking price. I do like the style of the car though.

smokefan

have a friend go there and look at the car and tell them he heard that the price was "thirty nine-ninety five" have him take a few minutes looking at the car then have him say i will take it and be paying cash for it. have the dealership write up the paper work and then have your friend give them forty dollars and tell them to keep the change

smokefan

also if your looking for a camaro instead of a bird i know a guy that had a 89 iroc for sale. 350 tpi auto t-tops pretty nice. the car is in connecticut on the ct/ny line. pm me if your intersted

eric17422001

The real reason the dealer won't come down on the price is because they know someone with bad credit will buy that car for their asking price, as used car dealers are in the finance business and that's where the money is made.

Your offer of cash for less than their asking price will only work if they want it off the lot immediately. Buy here pay here lots cater to those with bad credit that could not get financed through a bank or new car dealer, and they can charge depending on the state's laws upwards of 30% intrest. Your best bet is to keep checking the board's classifieds, or post a "wanted" ad on the board for what you are looking for and within a few hundred miles of your location. Be patient!

87CamLT

Your right eric17422001, I need to be patient. Believe it or not this dealership is a new car dealership. They sell Pontiac, Buick, and I think GMC. It is funny redraif, I have seen so many early 4th gen T/A and Formulas for $4,000 and under with less mileage then this 91. I thought about getting one, but my heart is with 3rd gens.
smokefan, Sounds like a nice car but I have no way of getting down to that area to see it. My car was totaled recently in a hit and run. I am having soooo much fun with car pooling and taking public transportation LOL. I do save alot of money though.

87CamLT

The dealership told me that the car only had two owners and they were in the same family. I just ran a carfax for the hell of it and found that the car had six owners in four different states and was auctioned off three times. What a bunch of liars. I have lost all respect for those sales people. I have dealt with some really good people in the past and some real dirt bags. Theses people are in the dirt category.

vrtc350

iTrader: (1)

Print out the carfax report and take it to them. Watch them squirm. Point to the dealership down the road and tell them you are going there and they can keep their POS!!

Keep the faith!! You will find one that is better suited.

Jacked up electrical can be vary scary!!

Red|ine

heheheh, genius.

Jim Berry

Walk away from this one, you'll probably be pushing it alot.

I got a '91 Firebird, TBI, Ttops with fender damage for $600. Almost finished with it. Should be on the road next month.

Jim.

smokefan

dont waste anymore time with those guys...even if they drop the price down.....i would give them my business at all....

twobirds

There are good deals out there, that car/dealer is not a good deal.

polishdevil

run away from that car...i picked up an 88gta, 305tpi, 5spd only in need of paint for $1500 in january

Derek The Great

Dealers are not the way to go, ever. I used to work for a Lincoln/Mercury dealership that had a used car lot and all i can say is Dust swept under the rug. Dealerships seem to have a way of concealing a lot of minor problems while letting a few show, as if to say yeah the car needs a little work but it runs great! Here is another reason why Dealers aren't a good place to go when looking for a third gen: For example, the blue book on my car is around 2200 bucks. That might be what a dealer would give me for it, but i already know that they will just take it and slap a $5000 sticker right on the windsheild-jus like the pos you are looking at, and they prob only paid 500 for that- So i say keep looking, you will find what you want eventually, and never tell yourself electrical problems and minor flaws will be easy, as many of our decals and such (ie WS6 center caps) have been discountinued. Another bit of advice is, Try to buy a car in the best condtion possible, bc the better you start off, the easier (and cheaper) it will be later on.

87CamLT

The dealership just droped their advertised price by 1000 dollars. I think I'll wait a week and offer $2,000 out the door.

Thirdgenz

Where in north jersey are you? I may know of someone selling an 88 GTA.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

Not gonna happen, they'd be losing money.

87CamLT

Thirdgenz I just sent you a PM.

87CamLT

I told the dealership to FU*K off today. They told me they would take $2,000. I went down to look at it and checked the RPO label. It doesn’t have the WS-6 package, it is WS-4. I also found two wiring harness with light bulbs attached in the storage compartment. The interior smelled like mildew from the leaking windshield. I noticed about a 100 more things wrong with the car. They tried BSing me into buying it. I told them they could make more money parting it out.

87CamLT

Here is a link if anyone wants to check out the car. The pictures make it look nice, but you need to see it in person.

http://used-cars.autos.yahoo.com/use...1UcmFucytBbQ--

If the link dosen't work then go to yahoo autos and type in pontiac 07034 zip trans am 1991.

82knightrider

iTrader: (1)

Thats a fricken nice bird man

87CamLT

Not really. The pics were touched up. The passenger fender is crushed. The ground effect on the passenger door needs to be replaced, there is a chunk missing from it. The windshield is patched up with bathroom chalking. The interior is water damaged. The headlights and taillights need to be rewired to work. The horn needs to be rewired, I can't stand that tacky looking button. Driver side quarter panel is rusted. It doesn’t have WS-6 suspension like the center caps say. The engine was steamed cleaned, but you can still see where there are two oil leaks. Check it out.

okfoz

It has the wrong tires to be a WS6 car. (granted they could be changed)

John

82knightrider

iTrader: (1)

Its got a lot of potential though.
Bathroom caulking

astoria18

I don't think it's as bad as everyone is making it seem.

Fender and ground effects can be gotten from a junkyard for cheap. It's in need of a paint job, so matching the color isn't an issue. Headlight and tail light wiring is relatively simple, just probably time consuming. (probably bad news if there are more unseen electrical problems) Horn button should't be too hard. I really don't like those dull grey interiors anyway, so water damage isn't a huge problem if mostly everything will be replaced, IF it's not rust. Replace winshield. It sounds lke the quarter panel is your biggest problem.

okfoz

That really brings up another issue... Do you pay someone to do the work or do it yourself.

If you do it yourself then its mostly time, If you pay someone to paint it then your looking at alot of money. I guess it would depend on how handy you are.

Looking at the condition of the car in the pix and the descriptions the car is not worth more than $1500 in my book.

I would say if you did it yourself then I would figure the following:
$1500 for the bodywork and paint add $100 (est) for decals
$250 for the windshield
Ground effects: That's is a difficult calculation considering I do not remember seeing alot of cars in the junkyard with those ground effects.
$1000 for an interior kit that included carpet, headliner, seatcovers, new door panels etc.
$50 for nice set of floor mats
$500 new tires (those look like crap no matter how good of condition they are in.)
$250 to fix the wiring problems. It may take some parts.

If you paid someone to do it for you I would guess anywhere between $5000 and $10,000 to have it in showroom condition...

the car is not worth that much IMO.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I just sold a complete interior with seats for $200 and it was in great shape. $1000 is way overpriced, you can get a firebird with a decent interior for that price. Just steam clean the whole thing, it doesn't look bad from the pictures.