AlabamaThunder

How do you put the double strap racing seat belts in a camaro w/ stock seats?

What's the cheapest brand and where do you buy them?

Sure do thank you.

-Jensen

AlabamaThunder

TTT, Anyone?


Thanky

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Only proper way is to have a roll bar with a tube running at about shoulder height to attach the upper straps to. If you bolt them down near the floor you run a risk of compressing your spine in a crash.

82firebird

How about doing something like this. Instead of attatching the strap to the floor or roll bar, you attach it to the factory location. Would there still be a risk of crushing your spine if its mounted higher than the seat? Heres what I'm talking about, mount the strap that would go around a roll bar, into the area in blue.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I would think it would have the tendancy to pull your body over into the door since the strap wouldn't be centered.

82firebird

How about..

Using PMD seats, or other seats where the belts could go through the seat. Then simply adjust the longer strap to be shorter, to compansate for the leaning towards the one side. It sounds like it would work, what do you think Evil?

82firebird

sort of like this..

AlabamaThunder

Yeah thats what i was thinking...Like I could cut some holes in my seats, and sead covers sew around them so they wouldnt unravel..and mount it like above. cause i hate stock ones...im 6'6" and the choke me.

Jensen

Dewey316

since this topic is on harness's hopefully this won't get locked for being 'offtopic' but this is one really great explanation on harness's and saftey with them, and the importance of being mounted correctly. in fact, something like this should be a sticky somewhere on the site.



--------
Notes On Race Car Harnesses - Design and Installation
©Michael Henderson. Written for ‘The Greasy Rag’, an Australian vintage
racing publication. Reprinted in its entirety and with the author’s
permission from CSRG News, a monthly publication of the Classic Sports
Racing Group.

During private practice at Amaroo recently, a very quick Sports 1300
went straight on over the hill and down into the earth-filled tire wall
outside the sweeper. The car was badly damaged, with most chassis rails
bent and the engine/gearbox shifted substantially forwards.

The driver, David Williamson, was extensively injured:
• fractures and dislocations both feet and ankles, necessitating a
wheelchair after discharge from hospital;
• undisplaced fracture of cervical vertebra;
• fractured ribs, punctured lung;
• bruised spleen;
• fractured left lower arm.

Most of these injuries, if only slightly worse, could have been fatal or
caused permanent disability. David has readily agreed to my telling his
story.

None of us like to think about being hurt in a race car. But while
exploring the edge of control is part of the kick we get from racing, it
seems reasonable and socially responsible to minimize the risk of being
hurt if we crash. I first started analyzing race crashes in 1966, and
successfully convinced a skeptical world that it was better to be belted
into an open car than to be thrown out of it. My development of the
six-point harness with the GQ Parachute Company, taken over later by
“Dumbo” Willans, was part of this work. I still analyze crashes, but
road cars these days. Knowing my background, David asked me to examine
his car and his injuries, to see whether they might have been prevented.

This process was so instructive I thought it was worth writing down some
of the lessons in the context of what new research is showing about race
car harnesses.
- First, we worked out what happened to him in the crash. The actual
speed of impact would be an estimate, but is likely to have been in the
order of 100 km/h. The impact was slightly angled, so the speed might
have been higher than that. The car was effectively crushed about
two-thirds of a meter, and the relatively stiff tire wall probably
compressed about one-third of a meter. The total stopping distance of a
meter then gives the deceleration force on the car at around 40 g. -
Now we know from the black box crash recorders in Indy cars that drivers
can ride out 40 g crashes with no more than bruising (the limit of human
tolerance is being approached at about 50 g). Why not in David’s case?

The first reason is that David “submarined”. Basically, he slid partly
underneath the lap belt. As it rode up his stomach to his chest it
bruised his spleen, then it went up and broke some ribs, which in turn
punctured a lung. His feet were forced down to the footwell, with
forces being directly transferred into a collection of vulnerable small
bones and joints.

Hanging on to the wheel, his arm was broken as he instinctively tried to
stop himself going forward. This was not enough to stop him being
violently flexed over the lap belt so far that he hit his helmet hard on
the steering wheel, bending the rim about 30 degrees forward. The
impact was enough to break a bone in his neck, just as it was at full
stretch.

Because problems with the harness and its installation and use could
have contributed to these injuries, we studied it carefully. It was a
six-point belt, with two-inch webbing. The shoulder belts had been
routed over a transverse chassis rail behind his shoulders and down to a
lower rail at the bottom of the car. The crotch straps were joined at a
central single latch plate. David confirmed that they were quite loose,
and could be clipped into the buckle very easily.

The submarining happened because there was little to stop it. Crotch
straps are there for two reasons. Not only do they have a direct effect
in preventing sliding underneath the lap belt, they also stabilize the
whole system. Unlike the tree-point belts in a passenger car, the
buckle of a race harness is in the center. This means as soon as the
shoulder belts are loaded, they pull the lap belt upwards and the lower
part of the body tries to shoot underneath. This killed Jochen Rindt,
who told me in 1969 that although he had come to accept a harness in the
Lotus, he would never wear crotch straps. In his crash at Monza his lap
belt ended up near his neck, rupturing his liver on the way. Australian
child car seats, which also have central buckles, have crotch straps for
exactly the same reason.

The excessive flexion of the upper part of David’s body started when he
finally got held up by the loose crotch straps, by which time his feet
were mashed in the footwell. The flexion was allowed by the
geometrically loosened shoulder belts and increased by the stretching
allowed by the long length of the straps.

General Motors has been doing Indy car crash simulation (sled) testing,
using dummies, for about five years. We now know far more than we did
about the details of what happens in this kind of crash. It turns that
what we thought was right in the beginning, was later proved to be
pretty right all the time.

At impact, the whole body moves forwards until lap and crotch straps
restrain the hips. Then the torso rotates 30 degrees until the shoulder
belts stop the rotation. Most of this movement is due to changing belt
geometry and shape changes to the body within the belt, even with the
mounting points just behind the shoulder. High-speed movies of a
correctly-restrained dummy reclining at 45 degrees show forward shoulder
movement of about 250 mm in a 40 g crash. About 20% of this forward
motion is due to belt stretch, working out to about 50 mm.

This confirms two things for us. First, to restrain body movement
within the confines of the shoulder straps, the belts must be as tight
as possible throughout the crash sequence. And that means tightness in
both the shoulder and crotch straps, which balance each other. Second,
the shorter the shoulder belts, the less the total stretch. In David’s
Sports 1300, fibers in the shoulder belts were melted as the webbing
stretched over the chassis rail.

Not only do slack belts allow more movement - or “excursion”, as we call
it in the trade - but they also directly increase forces on the neck and
chest because the body’s deceleration is more violent. The body slams
into the belts at the pre-crash speed of the car, instead of riding the
crash with the car as it collapses. Loose shoulder belts are a threat
to the neck.

It’s very important to get the shoulder belts loaded as soon as possible
in the crash. The best way to arrange this is to place the mounting
points so that the belts leave the shoulders at about 90 degrees to the
spine. If you sit bolt upright, take the belts straight backwards; but
when reclining, the mounting points should be below the shoulder but not
so as to take the belts back along a line 40 degrees below the
horizontal. When the diver is reclining, horizontal shoulder belts don’t
get fully loaded until well into the crash, by which time the shoulders
will have moved well forward.

Whatever the car, lap belts should be anchored near vertically (say, 80
to 90 degrees), with the webbing passing over or in front of the hip
bones.

In a 40 g crash, an 80 kg driver will be loading the belt system with a
3,200 kg force, about twice the weight of a fully-laden Falcon. The more
widely that load is distributed, the lower the risk of belt-induced
injury. That’s why three-inch (75 mm) belts, with reasonably stiff
webbing, are far better than belts with two-inch straps. They'll soon be
mandated by the FIA.

Crotch straps can’t be made of three-inch webbing, but in any event they
should bear on the bones of the pelvis between the legs. This allows
them to be really tight without discomfort, and puts crash loadings into
strong (and hard) body parts rather than weak (and soft). Crutch straps
take a heavy beating in a crash. A friend recently stuffed a March very
hard into an earth bank at Oran Park, and two days later - without other
injuries - had two jet-black bruise lines across the top fronts of his
legs.

To get the right geometry the crotch straps must be widely separated as
they approach the lap belt, just like a parachute harness. Easily the
best way to do this is to take them up through D-rings on the lap
belts. Every Formula One car has this kink of system. Taking the twin
crotch straps (or, worse, a single one) via a single latch plate to the
bottom of the buckle is a compromise aimed at cutting cost and adding
convenience, mainly for Sedan cars.

Only a few race harnesses comply with my criteria: three-inch webbing,
D-ring crotch straps, a central rotary buckle of course, and details
such as spring-loaded anti-slip adjusting buckles. They include the
following, and I readily concede there may be more I don’t know about:
• Willans 3" Silverstone 6;
• TRW/Sabelt 3" Professional 6-Point;
• Stand 21 STH-36SS 3";
• Simpson 3" 6-point.

The best harnesses don’t cost a lot more that the worst, and less than a
couple of tires these days. Fitting and wearing them properly is free.
As David told me when I was writing his story, if only one driver’s pain
is prevented by better understanding, then it makes his own pain worth
while


---
BIOGRAPHICAL NOTE
Michael Henderson M.D. is a physician and internationally-known motor
vehicle crash researcher. He has also been an auto racer since 1960.
He was the author of the seminal “Motor Racing in Safety” in 1968, and
influential in turning round Formula One and other open-wheel racers to
acceptance of full harnesses. His first prototype harness became the
Willans, now used world-wide. He currently drives a Lola T560 Formula
Atlantic in vintage races, and also has a Lotus Eleven (Dick McGovern’s
old car), Elva-BMW and a Ralt RT4. in June, Michael was involved in a
major crash with the Elva-BMW, the car was a write-off, but Michael came
through it with “limited” injuries, and will be racing again soon.

Metal

If your going to wear a racing harness, get a roll cage. On another board i visit, I read about someone that had racing harnesses in their car with no roll cage, had a wreck and flipped the car and died. The harness kept the person from making any movement as to duck when the roof caved in.

82firebird

Thanks for the article Dewey. I had'nt realized there was such large consequences for not properly mounting the harnesses. Although after reading the article, I'm still a bit confused; especially around this part about mounting the harness..

"It’s very important to get the shoulder belts loaded as soon as possible in the crash. The best way to arrange this is to place the mounting points so that the belts leave the shoulders at about 90 degrees to the spine. If you sit bolt upright, take the belts straight backwards; but when reclining, the mounting points should be below the shoulder but not so as to take the belts back along a line 40 degrees below the horizontal. When the diver is reclining, horizontal shoulder belts don’t get fully loaded until well into the crash, by which time the shoulders will have moved well forward.

Whatever the car, lap belts should be anchored near vertically (say, 80 to 90 degrees), with the webbing passing over or in front of the hip bones."

It sounds like the straps connecting the waiste straps going over the shoulders is the most crucial part. So I guess my main question would be, could you mount the "over the shoulders" part of the harness where the factory seat belts for the rear would be?

I want to use harnesses in my car purely for the looks. I dont plan on racing on tracks or getting anywhere close to rolling my car either. I'd really like to go through with this, but I won't if its not safe. Thanks guys.

92RS3.1L

I was thinking about gettin a 5-point harness as well. I think im gonna stick with stock belts. They saved my *** once.

blacksheep-1

First off, Dewey, that was awesome, having raced cars over the years, I have seen a lot of poorly installed or inadequate restraint systems.
Now as for the installation of a racing harness in a street car, there are other considerations. One of the most common mistakes, and there are several, is that the shoulder straps are attached to the floor instead of a roll cage structure at or near the rear of the driver's head. This has the tendency to bend the driver's back, by pulling the shoulders down, in a frontal impact. If installed corectly, the shoulder harness should be attached to the roll structure, or other SUBSTANTIAL member of the chassis approximately EVEN with the shoulders of the driver. (the seat doesn't count as a substantial part) and then as suggested, the shoulder straps should be confined either with a cross strap, or by going through a hole in the seat, to prevent them from spreading and coming off of the shoulders. The seat belts should attach in the approximate location as the stock belts, and yes, this is probably better than the stock stuff, but a crotch strap is highly recomended. Keep in mind, each race car is sort of designed for that particular driver, passenger car restraints are designed to fit a spectrum. When I sat in my car, someone else had to tighten the belts in order to get them tight enough and no matter how tight they were, they seemed never to be too tight . If you would like a good explanation, see the technical rule book for the Sports Car Club of America.
And no, I don't know if installing them higher would be a problem, but the tech book is very specific on how, and where they should be installed with angles and hardware defined.
There is definately more to this than it looks...been there, wrecked that...walked away.

Dewey316

there are really 2 issues with this, 1) you want the shoulder belts to be mounted the same distance apart, and straight behind you, to mount at the factorly location has both straps mounted way to the left (for the driver) in a wreck this would cause the right shoulder strap to practicly take your head off

2) they should be mounted as close to 90* from the spine, so that high in the car, especialy if reclining, is way to high. as he explianed it has to do with how fast the straps load in a crash.

if you are going purely for looks there are other option, they make special 4 point kits, designed secififly for street only cars, that function like your factory belts, but look like harness. but they are by no means track legal. if this is a purely look thing, you might check into those, i htink g-force and rgs make them ?? you would want to contact them to find out more details on them. i don't really know much about them.

MrDude_1

most of thoes "race look" ones arnt even DOT legal......

with the seatbelts, either do it right, or dont do it at all.

and race belts are a PITA on a street car.

Dewey316

thanks for adding that, like i said i no nothing about them, just have seen them being sold.

and yes, either do it right or don't do it. you are safer in the factory belts, than incorectly installed harness's.

blacksheep-1

Just to play the devil's advocate, because something is not DOT approved does not necessarily mean it's bad, for instance steel braided brake line is not DOT approved either. Helmets, some of which are DOT approved can't be used for competition because they are not Snell approved. (although almost, if not all, snell helmets are DOT approved). However, I do agree with you in that the DOT recomendation should be one of the first considerations, but like most things, it's not an absolute.

MrDude_1

i agree.

DOT helmet ratings are a joke. they were designed in the 50s and bearly updated.

DOT brake line approval is a joke.. look at all the damn approved earls lines that pop apart.

DOT tires are a joke. a cut slick would meet their saftey rating for wet traction... mostly because the ratings were made around the same time the helmet ones were.

DOT approval on seatbelts requires crash testing and data.. and the latest guidelines were made in the 90s..

while not absolute, they are decient enough to know that the belt works.

no aftermarket belt can be DOT approved unless its a exact stock replacement.

that said, i feel safe on the street with any quality racing harness thats properly installed..

if it cant meet the basic racing specs, and its not approved by anyone, it COULD be fine, but why get it? its unproven, you cant run down the strip with it (they DO check that) and its just asking to get hurt.

why dont race cars have airbags? because race car drivers strap in correctly.

anubiscougar

i have to reignight this post.

Great information here..

So.. basically, if i where to put a single bar around the middle of my car(you know, right behind the front seats) as a roll cage, would that be considered a roll cage? or do i have to run it to a few other places.

Also, with doing this, the cage will be just a tad bit taller than where the seat straps will come out of performance racing seats. So.. would it be ok to strap the belts highter to that cage? or should you run an extention down to be near 90 or 80 deg according to the back/spine. If so.. would that be strong enough to hold up in a crash? Figuring 3 inch pipe main, 1 inch going down. & then of course, weld in brackets.

I ask this because i havn't found roll cages for 3rd gens.. And even if i could, do they make places for the performance belts?

Also, another thing, with the 5 point racing harnesses, that go around the crotch area, where do those bolt to? they go thru the bottom of the seat, correct? kinda like a go-cart... right?

MrDude_1

there are several places that sell 3rdgen rollbar kits, along with plenty of people that can make them

when you put the crossbar in, you put it in at the height needed for your seatbelts.

look here for a sec http://www.nhra.com/contacts/tech_faq.html

in the first rollbar pic, bar A is the bar that the harness is attached to. some harnesses wrap around the bar, others are bolted on.

the bottom belt goes to the floor.

nolanr0413

i want racing seats and racing belts, aka 5 point harness or 4 point . I dont wanna run a cage an if i do i just want a hoop so people can still get into the back . At a car show a few weeks ago a 2002 subaru wrx had racing seats but no cage, it had this thing that mounted to the floor and held the belts at shoulder height.SO the guy didnt have to have a cage. Has anyone every heard of this.

Dewey316

i do have 4 points mounted to my floor, BUT i will NEVER use them at speed, i have them there for auto-x, just to hold me in the seat, i would not mount harness's to anything but a proper harness bar if there was a remote possibility of me actualy hitting something other than a cone.

MrDude_1

heh, dude, i donno what autoX club you run in, but SCCA requires you to have a roll bar (for this very reason) if you change from stock seatbelts.

Dewey316

i run at oregon SCCA events.

raffi4

iTrader: (2)

i have simpson 5 point racing harness's installed. the back strap is bolted to the back seat bolts and i drilled holes on the seat brackets put the supplied eyebolt through it and the lap belt straps just latch onto the eyebolts. i didnt put in the croch strap cus i didnt really know how to put it in but ive seen somewhere they sell bars you attach the croch strap too. it isnt really safe after testing it the lapbelt latch tended to unlatch when i jerked foward. so i kept my stock belts in for driving and the harness's for show till i get a cage. oh yea i used my stock seats too..

BretD 88GTA

I'm running the Schroth harness. These are the only DOT approved harnesses that I know of. They also have a built-in anti-submarine feature to help prevent slipping underneath the lap belt in an impact.

I do not use the harnesses on the street for daily driving. It would be just too much of a pain getting in and out of them all the time. I retained the factory belts for daily use. Schroth recommends this as well.

As far as running any other brand of harness on the street, technically you could get cited since they are not DOT approved. It would depend I suppose on the officer who is writing the ticket.

Here's a couple pics of my set-up:

raffi4

iTrader: (2)

how do you have the back of the belts connected cant tell from the pic?

BretD 88GTA

The tail straps are bolted to the factory rear seat belt locations. The inside strap runs down the side of the seat cushion and the outside strap runs down thru the paneling, just like the factory belts do. The tail strap then unbuckles from the shoulder strap for access to the rear seat.

Ideally it would probably be better to mount the tail straps a bit higher, but I didn't want to drill any holes in the car. Some people have run the tail straps thru the space between the rear seat cushion and seat back, then drilled holes in the body work to mount them. If you go this route be sure to use some good size flat washers on the back side to prevent the bolts from pulling thru the body.

raffi4

iTrader: (2)

yea today i just found a a bar that you can mount the shoulder straps to from lgmotorsports im pretty sure its bolt in. it mounts where the bar from a roll cage would be but its also $230 which is the same amount i could get a cage for but plus what ever time and money it costs to get welded in but i think in the long run im gunna go with a cage.