davecamaro

I got some bad rust happening in that back well I keep talking about, well this is the 2nd winter ive owned the car and well, its not looking to good anymore. Its finally falling apart, is there anyway to fix this without cutting and adding a new well on, is there anyways I can bondo/fiberglass... SOMETHING!?

davecamaro

Another shot..

davecamaro

top view, snow covering ..

HamSpiced

im getting the same thing.............

bnoon

The only way is preventing in the first place. Since the metal is gone through, there's not a whole lot you can do except replace it to make it last a long time. Spot fixing it with filler can get you a few years usually before it comes through again or bubbles up at least. Sorry to see on any car...

HamSpiced

what i want to do is just replace that entire back panel. its better then pussyfooting around patches of rust spots. that way i can undercoat the panel with ribber wor whatever before i put it on, i just want to know is it possible. is the back panel jsut bolted on like the front?

bnoon

No, the back panel will need to be cut off and welded back on at the seams or wherever the repair panel you buy is cut.

Mikes86SC

Nope, gotta cut and weld. Eh, Brad beat me to it. You can try private messaging user TomP, he is doing/did an entire quarter panel replacement.

85SportCoupeto89RS

It looks like you can leave the lip alone and cut out the bottom half the rear quarter. Sand off any rust on the lip before it too becomes a problem. Rear quarter panels are a PITA to cut and weld back in. Good luck, and happy 1000th post nextime you reply.

davecamaro

Yeahhhhh its my 1000th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT CELEBRATE!

Well back to the post, yeah I would love to get it cut and weld on a new peice, but wow just thinking about the cost of a job like that is just way out of range for me. I can afford to do a paintjob and self body work, if I can get some material to just shape everything back to the original state and just keep it out of the winter for the rest of the time if I can handle that.

HamSpiced

just out of curiosity what would the ball park range of replacing the entire rear panel be about? labor included of course.

85SportCoupeto89RS

Does the rust damage go out of the white incased area on my pic? Cutting that out and replacing it would be a whole lot eaiser than cutting out the yellow outlined area including the white as well.

HamSpiced

mine is in the yellow area

davecamaro

I belive im in the white zone a little into the yellow.
the other well is going to be a problem also.

85SportCoupeto89RS

Depending on which shop you would go to HamSpiced you could get a good deal or really screwed

Its still a tough job to cut and replace the white part since you only have to cut 1/4 to 1/3 under the middle of the panel. Gotta leave enough metal to crease back so you can butt weld the new panel against it.
Dave how bad is the driver side?

85SportCoupeto89RS

HamSpiced, is it something like this? This was taken after I pulled out the majority of the damage.

HamSpiced

thats exactly where mine is bubling. its the only rust on my car.

85SportCoupeto89RS

Do you have a pic of how bad it is?

HamSpiced

no but i will. i need to borrow my friends digital camera again so it may be a day or 3. why doe sit matter that much?>

85SportCoupeto89RS

I need to see how bad it is with my eyes before I can properly give out good info.

davecamaro

I will take some pictures for you to show u ever rusty spot I got so u can have an idea of both ends of my car.

TomP

So I swing by this forum, see rust, see a quarter panel, hear my name , and here's my contribution!

Looks like yes, welding is definately involved. Look at http://www.eastwoodcompany.com under welding, you can buy an arc welder kit that will do the thin sheetmetal for bodywork for $200. Or you can ape crazy like I did and buy a Lincoln Electric welder, with gas bottle, and spend about $600 after everything's bought. (Best reason why? Because it's the last welder youll ever purchase, for life!)

Anyway, think about how easy you want this job to be. I've got the same kind of rust problem- a cracked wheel well lip. But I've also got holes all over the f'ing place, including the inner wheel well. So instead of messing around with patch panels, here's my solution:

TomP

Only stupid part is, work really picked up (and is lately killing me, big time), so I didn't have time to work on it! I put it in the backyard. It's got snow on it. It's been rained on. It's probably turned into crap. At least I only paid $150 for it; the rent-a-van was another $60.

Here's some shots of my hell:

TomP

More pictures... I'm skipping a few so my car doesn't look -that- bad!

TomP

Well, with this set, I guess I can't hide how bad the rust is anymore...

TomP

A bit of an emergency weld job I did, because that crack was starting to scare me...

85SportCoupeto89RS

Damn TomP, I remember your post on the v6 board but I dont remember it being that bad. Ohhhh you've got one heck of a job ahead of you. Lol, it makes all of the mildy difficult damage that I had to repair seem insignificant.

TomP

Oops, stupid picture. Here it is. For a wealth of information on quarter panel replacement, visit this link. I got a TON of help and ideas from thirdgen.org members! https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=108890

Also, keep in mind how this job went from "insanely difficult" to "a little less difficult". The junkyard cut that 1/4 off for me on the trunk floor. So instead of welding upside down and inside a wheel well, i'll be chopping the right rear of my car off, and welding this "new" 1/4 on. All flat welds, all easily accessible.

Two major problems: 1, I'll be losing the right rear frame rail, in front of the control arm, which I usually jack the car up with. How will I keep the car in the air? Not sure yet. Ask me this summer. And 2, the quarter panel in the backyard has the panhard rod and lower control arm brackets on it. I'd better be damned sure of myself when I do the cutting and welding so I don't screw up my rear axle alignment!

One other thing I didn't mention, if you -do- want to play with patch panels, you might be able to make some yourself. It's amazing what you can form with a hammer, some cutters, a bench vise, and a welder.

TomP

LOL, yeah, it's bad... and those pics were from the summer- before the snow- before the salted roads. I'm going to try and remember to attach that damned picture about my emergency weld job, now. And you guys were probably thinking "TomP's so smart"- yeah well I should take a picture of the emergency weld job now, and you'll see how smart I am- I somehow never found time to paint the bare steel... last I checked, the emergency weld job was looking pretty damn rusty! Ah well, fck it if it can't take a joke!

SuperchargedRS

Cut the rust out, take a new piece of metal, heat and beat it untill it's in the same shape as the target location should be. Weld it in, grind & sand than re-paint. If you dont have a garage / carport, get a car cover (it should cost at leats $100). Next POR 15 the entire bottom of the car. Just my two cents.

[or replace the rusted body part, maybe get a fiberglass one]

85SportCoupeto89RS

reminds me of when I da'ed all of my paint during last winter. I wish I had a car port or garage. I had four car covers on, 3 plastic tarps on top of that, and my car still rusted all over. It rained almost the whole time I was stripping off the 6 layers of paint. I still need to por 15 the underside of my car, even though its in good shape and as far as I can tell theres no rust under the body.

HamSpiced

you expect me to this myself? Ha! of course i would love to buy a welder cause i would use it so often but... i have no room for both a welder and a bottle. i live in a house who's garage is bigger then it. just the garage isnt insulated and dad wont pull out his ASStro van so i can put my camaro in (*******). if i took it to a bodyshop to weld and repair then i guess id primer it then repaint the following summer, how much would i expect to be charged for a patch up job (Without any bondo at all of coursE)

irocEOK

spend a couple hundred bucks and buy a beater. something to get thru
a couple winters... stop damaging those thirdgens! Once u fix that rust,
u never NEVER want to do it again.

TomP

I guess you didn't bother reading my message or going to the link I posted, because the arc welder package (not mig) I mentioned doesn't use a gas bottle. I'd say more but it can be read about on the website.

And primer isn't waterproof, if you want to drive around for a year in primer after fixing rust, it doesn't make sense.

[edit] Oh and if you have a body shop do it, I estimate the repair bill to about $3000-$4000.

TomP

irocEOK, you expect me to go through a season without driving my car? Haha, yeah, right. I wouldn't be able to stand it!

HamSpiced

no no i read the posts they were very helpful. i saw the arc welder, but if i ever do buy a welder id buy a Mig Welder. im sorry but i just dont have the room or the talent to mess with it. i was hopint just to fix that little bit of my wheel well would only cost about 500-600 but damn....

Andy Fanshawe

iTrader: (1)

Hi all.
I have spent many a happy hour cutting/welding/shaping/filling and painting on lots of cars. It is hard, painful, skillful work. Good equipment is a must. Working space inside also. Gloves and goggles MUST be worn at all times. And I mean at all times. Angle grinder sparks, welding sparks, sharp cut metal will take their toll on your body! Masks are vital also. Don't breathe all that stuff in.

After saying all this, it is very satisfying when it is done.

Reagrding the wheel arch/quarter panel; drill out spot welds where you can and plug weld the new panel in. NEVER, ever leave any rust on the car. Cut it all out. TomP has the best idea although he will have added complications of alignment. Tom-make sure you measure everything before during and after welding. Unstitch spot welds where you can. Spot weld cutters can be bought that can leave the bottom layer of metal intact. Just makes life that little bit easier.

One lesson that I have learnt through all this though. Sometimes you have to let go. Sentimentality can cloud a judgement really bad. I have persevered welding ol' favourites up for months, and usually they still end up in the junkyard. Patience wears thin, money disappears fast, time just plain sails past, and the job doesn't get finished. Buying another (not as rusty) car can just make plain good old fashioned sense. Components can be swapped over if you want.
Yes, yes, I know that we all love our thirdgens. And we can't possibly sell/scrap it. But,...........think about it first. You could get into a world of hurt.

Hope this makes sense.
Andy.

TomP

Sorry 'bout my "attitude", HamSpiced, I've been in btch mode lately; too much stress. Good idea about going right for the MIG... I got lucky with mine; used my tax refund money to buy it, scammed Home Depot and got their beat-a-price guarantee because Lowe's had it for $10 cheaper. The next year, I picked up the gas bottle. It's amazing how much better MIG'ing is with regular GMAW (shield gas) than FCAW (flux core wire)! Much cleaner, more precise. My welder is the LE Weld-Pak 100, which came with flux core wire, so I screwed around with flux core welding to get practice. I wish I just started straight with GMAW, it's much better. Last summer when I was welding on a friend's car (a deer ran into the side of his car, killed the doors, left the front fender and rear 1/4 intact, and left fur everywhere!), I got an auto-dimming helmet, which made life easier yet! So my welding setup is basically a 3-year "buildup" in the making... if I had known about the arc welder package 3 years ago, I might've gone for it... it's certainly cheap enough. But I'm sure eventually I would've moved up to a MIG... here, there's nothing to move up to- except TIG, and I won't spend that much. (I really am in love with the $700 plasma cutter that eastwood sells, though... hm, save up for my future wedding, or buy the plasma cutter? Think the fiance' would mind? )

Actually, Andy, with the welding I'll be doing, there won't be any spot welds. I did pick up a spot weld cutter before I got the 1/4 panel. There are a LOT of spot welds! Everything will be done along the floor pan. Like you said, it's gonna be a TON of measuring. I'm actually going to "make" an axle, to help with alignment. It'll be a scrap set of control arms, welded to a 6 foot plate of steel. That way I won't have to keep sliding the real axle underneath. I plan to use the track bar (panhard rod) and track bar brace to keep the track bar body bracket located.

Andy, got an idea of what the best tool is to do the cutting with? People have told me to use an air powered cut off tool; I tried cutting a scrap of steel with mine, and I couldn't trace a straight line for anything. That little wheel moves too damn fast. People I talked to said that a nibbler creates too much heat, and can warp the sheetmetal. I'm thinking of using just a regular 'ol black & decker jigsaw with a steel cutting blade; plus, that way, I could line up a 2x4 to use as a cutting guide.

davecamaro

Hey guys great post with some great info, but im asking is there a way to just by-pass that whole welding right now?
I cant afford it, and if I cant take care of it, its just going to fall off correct? why cant I just do something right now to hold back the rusting for a while!

85SportCoupeto89RS

Well you could beat off the rust out panels with a hammer and sand off any surface rust. Then put some waterproof paint ontop of the good bare metal.

HamSpiced

tom: its ok i understand what you were saying completly. yes i agree Arc welding is both fun and easy but when it comes down to it mig welding is superior. and if i had the choice i would rather save to buy a mig welder and just liek you get a bottle later. What is your opinion on those autodimming helmets? i have heard mixed reviews about them so im unsure. i checked out my rust spots today and it seems as if they are spreading from last summer. they arent all the way through thankgod so i think im gonna sand it all down this summer and touch it up with a rattle can of the car stuff.

TomP

There's a few zinc washes out there that remove rust, and leave a zinc coating... I think http://www.eastwoodcompany.com has one, and http://www.por15.com uses one as part of their 3-step POR-15 treatment. I like the autodim helmet; mine is a Hornell Speedglas, the "Utility" (cheapest) model. Got it for about $180. Could've gotten one with more features over the internet, or from Eastwood, but what I liked was, I got it from the local welding store. I went there just to check prices, and the guy started showing me the helmets, talking about the warranty, and he said one thing that nailed the sale: Anything went wrong with the helmet during the warranty, I would bring it back to them, to the shop, they'd give me a new one, and ship the old one back to Hornell. Sure beats sending a helmet out thru the mail, then waiting to get it back! Here's my message where a ton of guys helped me with the helmet. https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=122469 I love the thing; so much easier than the flip-up helmet. Haha, it was a bit scary with the first few welds; it felt "wrong" to be able to see what I was doing. It felt like I was welding without a helmet.

Eastwood's got a LE "handy mig" for less than my Weld Pak 100; not sure why it's cheaper, but it seems to come with a gas regulator, too! http://www.eastwoodcompany.com/aspfi...Dep_Key1=WelDg

Dave, check out this link, maybe it'll help you. But I think 85SCto89RS has the better "quick fix" idea; try http://www.por15.com , too. http://www.eastwoodcompany.com/aspfi...Dep_Key1=WelDg

Oh, sweet, anyone remember the "Humpty Dance"? Just found http://www.80s.fm today; and I'm lovin it

85SportCoupeto89RS

HEhe the 80's station Knocking off the rusted panels and sanding the surface rust, was the only thing I could think of without taking a torch to the car.

Andy Fanshawe

iTrader: (1)

Hi TomP.
You asked what was the best tool to cut with. There is no one tool that cuts all. The pro bodyshops use a variation. Nibblers (don't distort), snips (metal shears), angle grinder, stihl saw, torch, jigsaw, plasma cutter, air hammer etc.

Just use whatever does the job at the time! Experience will tell.

One important point. If you are enclosing a box section, use a weld thru primer before it is closed up. Also use it on flanges before they are welded up. Otherwise rot will set back in very quick. Then get it all rustproofed inside asap.

Andy.

HamSpiced

"it was a bit scary with the first few welds; it felt "wrong" to be able to see what I was doing"

thats the only thing that would take so long for me to get adjusted to. I heard about that zinc stuff, any word on how well it works in a first hand experience? i checked my rust spots today and they are not all the way through yet so i plan on sanding it down this summer and doing all i can to fix it then re-paint it myself.

jcurrieirocz

A car cover aint gonna work,,car covers dont keep out the rain,,,,there designed to let moisture escape,,,and they cant be fully waterproof. Like superchargerrs said thou,,,,Rust is like cancer,,,,it wont go away or stop spreading unless you cut it out sanding it wont work(as someone else suggested). You sometimes can sandblast it out but you cant I bet your 1/4 panel is rusting from the backside...take out your plastic stuff and get a good light and I bet you can see most of your rust inside the car!!!!! You got to sandblast and cut every single spot very good or it will just come right back in a year or so.


There are a few ways to help rust from happening (only if theres none there to begin with) ,,,,,,wash your car and wax it very often dont drive on dirt roads althe time,,,,get it undercoated with oil of somthing every year,,,,and mnever drive it in salty roads ever!!!!

Most people deal with rust the same way as haveing aids or cancer,,,they think no way not me,,,this cant be happening,,not me,,,then they think it will go away and they think they have the power to stop it, but you cant,,,you really cant even slow it down!

zhgrou6

I live in the rust belt. These mid 80's GM classics just can't survive a winter. Salt! Here in western NY it is all over the place. So here's what I do. I have a winter car and a summer car. Actually the winter vehicle is a truck, a full size K5 Blazer with a 305. And the summer car is an 85 Firebird sport coupe also with a 305. I park that Firebird in the barn on November 1st and don't put it back on the road till May 1st.

That's the prevention straegy. But the Firebird has some rust - primarily from the previous owner. And the Blazer had lots of rust. So last August I broke down and bought a Lincoln SP175 Plus MIG welder. I also got a Hypertherm Powermax 380 plasma cutter and a Sears 150 psi air compressor with a 30 gallon tank. This all cost about $2500. I have no acetelyne torch, and no other welder. And I was a novice welder.

With that equipment I was able to chop out the floor in the rear of the Blazer and replace it. I also replaced brake and fuel lines, the gas tank and the exhaust system. The Blazer is back on the road now and I'm very happy.

The Blazer was for practice. Now the Firebird is in the barn. I have a big rust hole in the floor in front of the driver's seat. I'm in the middle of putting new sheet metal there. There is less rust on the passenger side floor. I also have two rust spots in the left rear quarter panel.

I painted all the new metal in the Blazer with Rustoleum products using a sprayer and cans. Not sure if it's the best solution for the money tho'. Time will tell. (I should try POR15) (I also dont know how to paint inside of a box that was welded)

The MIG welder (wire feed with CO2/Argon sheiling gas) is easy to use. An 11 pound roll of wire cost $20 and lasted most of the truck project. The gas costs $18 for a refill. My 60 scf tank lasts 1 or two weekends of moderate welding. (15 to 20 scf/h flow rate lasts for 4 to 3 hours of actual welding time).

The Firebird doesn't need any whole panels replaced (the Blazer did). I'm getting 12 by 24 inch pieces of 22 gauge mild steel at Home Depot for $7. 16 gauge is $11. I can get steel cheaper but Home Depot is convenient.

So that's what I'm doing to prevent and get rid of rust. Have a winter car, and learn how to weld. MIG welders can be rented by the way.

Scania

Buy plastic, it doesnt rust

jcurrieirocz

I Did!!!
My winter car is a Saturn

HamSpiced

what about a fiberglass rear? how do they attach? im willing to buy one just to never have to deal with this rusting bullsh*t again.