TomP

Has anyone done this, or know of a web page about it??

Basically I'm curious to know if I should be flanging the replacement panel, butt-welding it, or actually hunting down spot welds. And after searching the 'net and thirdgen.org, I have found nothing!

2vmodular

you're not finding much info about quater panel replacement on a thirdgen, because thirdgens are low dollar value cars. when a quater panel is damaged, the cars are usually considered a "total loss" by insurance companies.

not sure what the damage to the panel is on your car. but if it's just corrosion around the wheel well, a patch panel may be a good solution instead of replacing the entire panel.

89Formula305

what I plan on doing is cutting just under the the lip in the panel and flanging it, then cut another panel to fit it....

Kaps

Hey 89formula305, does that car have sentimental value to you? It just seems f*cked, just wondering... Maybe its just the way the pic looks.

TomP

2V, I just figured someone out there on the world-wide internet would've replaced a quarter! The whole panel is absolutely shot; if I had to do patch panels, there wouldn't be much "original" quarter panel left. Plus, my stress crack on the roof has gone from small to HUGE, so I even need to replace a bit of the roof panel! (Yes, the car is worth it to me; and plus, I enjoy the work.)

Kaps, it just looks like normal panel replacement to me.

'89, thanks! Glad to see someone else is tackling the "impossible" (or unthinkable?) besides me! That's exactly the kind of cut I was thinking of doing... especially since that's the only spot on the 1/4 that is almost perfect, with little-to-no filler. Why do a flange, though? Why not just do a butt weld? I never would've thought of flanging, until I saw http://www.eastwoodcompany.com 's flange tools. Is a flange stronger? Easier? There's gotta be a reason to use one, and I can't find it! Is it better, because it would allow spot welding? I'd still have to weld the whole seam up though, a tack-at-a-time...

I was looking inside the drip rail area of the hatch window, and noticed what seems to be a lap weld, near the top side of the window. When I was doing bodywork, and sanded down the b-pillar (that's the name, right? For the panel between the door window and hatch window?), I noticed a copper-colored line underneath the paint. The line ran from left-to-right, and was about 1/8" wide. I think this is how GM welded a T-top roof onto the car.

So I was thinking; maybe the original quarter panel was butt-welded onto the B-billar. And then I'm thinking, okay, I should drill out all the spot welds- but where the hell are they? I think they're underneath the weatherstrip for the hatch window. But that's a lot of spot welds... and I'd have to un-do the panel from the taillight panel, and from the inner wheel well. I'd much rather do a cut like yours.

But... will it be strong enough? I guess if the weld is done perfectly, it will. I'm

How'd you do the cut? An air chisel? I thought an air nibbler was the way to go; then I hear that an air chisel makes a perfect cut. I wonder how perfect an air chisel can cut, compared to a nibbler. (I'd rather get the chisel, it's cheaper!)

Do you know yet how you'll tackle the slightly rusty spots "inside" the quarter area? I was thinking POR-15'ing any rust I find, but someone mentioned OSPHO- and since OSPHO must be topcoated, I think I could use it for inside the panel. Eastwood sells some seam sealer and anti-rust treatment that I might use, too.

What kind of welding setup will you use? My welder is a MIG, and I'll be using L56 0.025" wire. The L56 wire is ER70S-6. Eastwood sells (this is a commercial for eastwood, isn't it? ) some butt-weld spacer clamps that I might pick up.

Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate it!

redraif

I would think the main reason to drill out spot weld would be so the panel has less welding being done in visible areas. The less welding you do on the exterior (seen) panels, the less body work you have to do. I would want to limit my exterior welding, to limit bondoing and fiberglassing. Also on a flat body panel its way easy to warp the metal.

My boyfriend and I are attempting the same rear quarter panel replacement on my mom's car. (not a bird) We cut one out of a donor car. We are planning to do as much welding under weather strips and in door jams and behind tail lights as possible. I would rather weld for strength than for beauty.

I maybe able to get him online to answer some questions this weekend. He and his father have done this stuff on 57 and 55 Chevys for years.

SUPER CHEVY66

iTrader: (1)

Ok Tom i will try to answer some of your questions. First invest in a good bodywork and welding book these books offer great help trust me. And secondly this is my opinion this is how i would do it.

First i reccomend you find where gm welded the quarter on in the first place like the butt weld on the b-pillar the copper color line is where they brazed it on and the spot welds attaching it to the unibody.

Butt vs Flange
In your case a flange will allow for more welder error. You dont want to butt weld in a 1/4 inch gap its pretty impossible. A flange will allow the the welder more alignment when it comes time for fit up.

Air chisel vs nibbler
a chisel will cause less warpage due to less heat it's the best tool for the job.

Welder
The 110 volt mig you have will work fine for sheet metal

Rusty area
I think eastwood sells somthing called galvazinc a weld thru primer it will work or use por-15

gmgod

Who makes patch panels for our cars quarters?

FatOne

Buddy and myself took on task of 69 Camaro. It was to say the least very difficult. We had a medium size compressor. With a grinding wheel. We split all the seem welds and overlay welds. Using a small pry bar and other tools. To get it out all in the factory order. Everything we checked over. What need to be replaced we went to the city lot. Got some old hwy maker sings. Good old steel. Reinforced most of it to a stock fit. Thing is lots of planing and drawings on paper. We used a mig welder and a plasma cutter for most of the work. I found only that next generation has the parts for most Camaro bodies. At the end yes there is quite a bit of body work. But you take it to a body shop the guy said $2000. Hell no, save some money if you know how thats what I say.

Wolfpack

What about if the panel is just pushed in? It looks to be in good shape but looks like somthing just pushed it in at the bottem and bent the whole thing in. Its not real obvious unless ya look at it from the rear(you can see the back of the tire over half way up) and there is no rust on in except a bit inside(normal stuff). Anyway is this an easy fix or is this gonna cost me an arm to get fixed? Doing it myself is out of the question cuze i know jack about bodywork(besides knowing i cant do it ) Thanks

redraif

Ok, this is Redraif's boyfriend, Joe...a few words on quarter panel replacement. There are three ways to do it; drill out all the spot welds and remove the panel as it was installed, then re-spotweld;
cut out the old panel, flange the panel with an air powered flanging tool (by the way, you can get them from any industrial too supplier, probably cheaper than Eastwood), and stitch weld it in; or, cut out the old panel, butt weld, and finish. The first method is great for older cars (pre-80s), because there were not that many spot welds, and the spot welds were fairly easy to access...I could do an older Camaro or something similar in a day's time. It would be just as strong as original, too. This method would be fairly difficult on a 3rd gen, though, I would think, due to the number of spot welds and the fact that some are nearly inaccessible.I haven't replaced a 3rd gen quarter, though. The flange method is the easiest and most common way to replace a panel, but you would have to be very careful to seal the back side of the weld (around the flange) with some type of rustproofing (Por 15 or something similar), esp in a place like Michigan. The flange will trap moisture, and eventually rust again. It is a strong repair, but it will be obvious on the back side of a panel (not that big a deal on a 3rd gen, where you can't see the back side of the quarters anyway). This is probably the best way to do a 3rd gen. The last method, butt welding, is usually best. You don't have to worry about putting complex seams back together exactly as the factory did, and all the tedious spot weld removal and replacement is eliminated. There is no flange to give rust a place to form, and the back side of the panel is easily finished to hide the repair (important on a car that you can see the back side of the quarters through the trunk). The only drawbacks are that the welder has to be much more skilled, and the time required to solidly butt weld the two panels may lead to increased warpage on a later model vehicle, since the metal is thin. There are low temperature wires available for welding sheetmetal to make this less of an issue. If you are a very good welder, this is the way to go, but the flange method is what most non-professionals do. Also, the best tool for cutting sheetmetal for these kind of repairs is an air powered cutoff wheel. You can get very thin wheels, so the cut is clean and removes only enough metal to seperate the panels. BTW, you don't have to buy new GM or repro panels...we recently paid about $35 for a good quarter in a salvage yard (though we did have to bring a Sawsall and a rented generator to power it). I always prefer original sheetmetal, new or used, over aftermarket. The steel is better quality, and the body lines are correct...aftermarket often isn't. A friend of mine who used to work for a major restoration sheetmetal supplier used to jokingly call their parts "OE"...not for
original equipment, but "Oriental Equivalent (made in Taiwan)"!

TomP

Thanks everyone for the help, I appreciate it! I definately want to plan this thing out- but I can't figure out which plan to use as my starting point! FatOne, you're right; the bodyshop would want way too much money for this kind of job. I like that idea of using the old signs for patches; good idea! I've already got some floorboard cracks that I'm thinking of welding up, but reinforcing with some 1/16" (or, haha, 1/8") sheetmetal from my basement.

SuperChevy, thanks! (And the opinion is understood; if I mess up, I won't come yelling at you! ) I do have a good bodywork book; my dad bought it in the '70's (everyone's got bellbottoms, smoking long cigarettes, huge sideburns, and affro's! ), and it covers everything. I looked at a newer book in an auto store, and it didn't give me any further help- odd. The 70's book goes into depth on leading- and treats any filler (even a correct "skim coat") as if it should be avoided at all cost. Funny how things change!

That sounds like a good recommendation (butt weld on b-pillar, and spot welds for unibody). Do you know where the spot welds are? Say I find the spot welds, and drill 'em out- I just do a new weld in the same spot? Do I have to finish welding the whole seam, or just leave it welded on the spot welds, and that's it?

Thanks for finally clearing up the "why flange?" question. Would I do spot welds on the flange, and then weld up the whole seam (one tack at a time)? I never thought about a nibbler causing heat; it makes sense. Thanks for the tip! Should I bother with a nibbler at all? And I saw that weld-thru zinc stuff at Eastwood; I'll have to pick a quart up.

Red & Joe, thanks, too! As you just read, I'm not sure of where all the spot welds are. I think they might be underneath the hatch window weatherstrip- but I didn't want to "go that way". I'd like to leave the top of the 1/4 intact, because it would help me align the 1/4 to the car, so I don't wind up with a car that's longer/wider on one side.

I've worked with the por-15 before, so I might use that, since I'm more familiar with it. I might also use the Eastwood coating too, it'd be easier to get to a "blind side" with it. Here's an odd question; I guess I have to coat the panels before I weld them together.. should I recoat them after the welding? Don't know how I'd get in there...

I definately want to get a wrecking yard quarter... I don't want to get any non-original sheetmetal. I could probably also get "extra" sheetmetal; pieces that a catalog might not sell. Plus, I like the idea that I can "see" how the factory attached the thing. If I went out and ordered a quarter from a catalog, I won't be able to see how it "should" or "did" attach to the car.

Now, you say to use the cut-off tool; I have one of those already (and it could probably use a new wheel)- I could probably trace a hell of a line with that thing. What about heat, though? If a nibbler introduces heat, I'm sure the air cut off tool would really heat the panel up!

Thanks again!

TomP

Wolfpack, depends on how much it's pushed in... and I'd say to grab a bodywork book, for $15, if anything, it's a good read. Eastwood sells a kit that comes with everything you need to make a weld-less repair; a flange tool, a flush-rivet tool, and sealer. If it's not too deep, you could work it out using the usual body tools (hammer, dolly, slide hammer). Just make sure to somehow get those holes from the slide hammer sealed up- primer/paint, welding, etc... you don't want 'em to rust.

GMGod, you can find quarters from classic industries, the paddock, etc... any of those little ads in the back of Hot Rod magazine that talk about restoring a 3rd gen. I think the sites are http://www.classicindustries.com and http://www.thepaddock.com - unfortunately, both will charge you $5 for a catalog.

deadbird

After my camaro got nailed in the ¼ panel from the side by a Z71 (fairly low speed but enough to destroy the corner of my car) I ended up splicing a new panel in (see pic).

I chose to splice because a whole panel replacement wasn't worth my timeand, it's hard to find an entire panel in good shape in the junkyard around here (at least when you actually need one).

I used various rods, poles, sharp pointy objects & large hammers (and a few frosty beverages ) to get the back area into shape so I could get a taillight back in.

Cutting tools are a matter of preference. I used a bayonette (basically a fixed jig/saber saw) saw with a fine metal blade to cut the old panel. Overlapping the 2 pieces got me a basic line to trim both parts to (using distance measurements from the good side of the car). I used some masking tape for a staight edge and proceeded to cut. It's always better to cut a little big than small.. it's much easier to take away than to add metal (when working with such thin crap).

When I got close to what I wanted, I fine tuned the cuts with a grinder & a 80grit soft disc, then welded it back together.

Between the work & the slacking off.. it took me roughly 8hrs to finish.

From the b-pillar gutter to the rear of the car (blue arrows), the weatherstrip is on nothing but ¼ panel, there's nothing else there. I think once it gets around that curve there are a few and then, you can see the overlap lines of where the ¼ panel stops.

Spot welds essentially run the entire perimeter of the entire panel
and around the gas filler opening (green arrows). The easiest way to find them is to take a sander (grinder preferably) and go around the outside edges of the panel. The sander will take the paint off the high part of the spot weld and crap will stay in the center (will leave a little 'crater' looking spot behind).

Re-welding the drilled out spot welds is probably the best way to ensure the strength of the panel is restored but not always the easiest to do.

I used no fancy tools (well.. I did buy a new, short handled 3lb hammer..) to splice my panel, and my welder is a p.o.s cambell-hausfield (sp?) 110v fluxcore wire welder using .o35 wire (right off the shelf at rural king).

The above is just my methods used, take it as it's worth (if it's anything at all...). Everyone has different methods that are most comfortable to them so collect it all, sort it out and used the bits & pieces that make it easiest for you to accomplish the job.

TomP

Deadbird, thanks for the great picture & advise! You managed to weld the panels together with flux-core 0.035 wire? Wow! I thought it'd burn thru. Good deal! (Too bad I already bought the gas conversion kit and $150 C25 gas bottle, oh well! )

So there's no spot welds at the top, by the hatch window? I thought two pieces of metal came together where the hatch weather strip is- that's just the edge of the quarter panel?

How'd you do the welds around the gas filler neck?

The lower spot welds- looks like you drew a lot in. (Is that, by any chance, an accurate "count" of spot welds? ) Do they appear on the lip of the wheel well, or are they about 3 inches in, where it looks like the inner wheel well joins another piece of metal?

Problem is, my entire inner wheel well is also rusted to hell. There's three large rust holes in it, and a crack has started to appear on the edge of one hole. So looks like I either have to patch the snot out of my inner wheel well, or replace that too. The entire wheel well lip is GONE. If the spot welds go to the wheel well lip, I can't do the spot welds; there's nothing to weld to.

89Formula305

KAPS, it has value to me because its my first car, and im saving a 3rd gen. By the way ill be 16 on June 28th.

TomP, sorry about not responding so soon, glad to see you got some help though, I used an air nibbler to make the cut but i havent finished cutting...we were trying out our new air tools, lol.

I bought some of the seam sealer and rust encapsulator from eastwood but havent used it yet..

The reason for the flange in my mind is to have a base to lay the other panel against.

deadbird

89.. Don't take offence but, the approach you're taking to replce a ¼ panel (going by pic above) is pissing away alot of work time. If you just replace the whole thing you'll be saving yourself soo much welding/finish work time it's unreal. I do however think it's cool you are restoring a car (regardless of it being a 3rdgen) at your age and having (assumption) the support/help of family, it's even better.

TomP.. Unfortunatly.. I'm afraid I may not answer you in the best form right now but, I 'll give it a shot.

To start.. I've been welding 22-18ga metal for 5years with a 220 lincoln electric arc welder using 3/16 rods.. it sucks granted but, you learn alot about how metal warps/draws when you get it to hot or make a crappy weld/tack. A flux core wire feed is childs play compared (at least to me) to that. The biggest differance is a MIG makes alot cleaner weld (no flux/variables to have to bother with somewhat). I learned on MIG and it, by far, is the simplest to 'master' ( I've been proved that even tho monkeys can do it,,, some people don't have the knack tho..).

While gas tanks and filler neck scare some.. I've never been that concerned (gotta die from something...).. what I did was wrap a wet rag over the filler neck & there are only like 3-4 spot welds to plug there so, it was over with quick. (another reason I use a spray bottle instead of compressed air to cool welds)

The spot welds... while I know I made alot of arrows to somewhat prove a point.. I feel I'm low on count in a few areas. The fender lip seems to be spaced about 1 spot per 2-3". The other areas give or take a few (depending on the day of the week for production I guess....)

Your iner fender problem.. i suppose I'd approach it with splicing in a partial new one since you seem to be missing alot of it.

My way would be place the new outer where you believe it should go (using clamps, measurements & such) then size/fit the inner off that. Once you've got that, tack it (inner) in place & make sure the overall fit is good (fitting the outer to the tacked inner) then tack it (inner) in solid. Fit the ¼ panel to it to assure fit, a few tack welds for holding (inner to outer), weld the inner (alternate location stitch welds.. heat/warp not a major concern on the inner fender) in place. Check the outer to make sure all is well then,,,, start plug welding (filling drilled spot welds).

To answer the 1st part last since I'm attaching a pic... the fender (*edit heh..shows what I know... ¼ panel I mean) has no backing from the curve part (off the b-piller) until it reaches the back (my apologies for the crap pic.. can't expect alot from a $130 digi cam ). These cars rely alot more on the underbody than the sheetmetal like some people think. But, that's a whole different argument and I'm not about to start that

I'm no bodyman by far but, I've done my share of fixing my own f-ups to know what's easiest & works for me.

*edit... yes.. you can tell how much I love my camaro by the pic huh ?

TomP

'89, no problem about the late reply, I want to get as many opinions as I can. From searching the archives, there was absolutely NOTHING on this topic!! If you use the sealer and encapsulator from eastwood before I do, let me know how they work! I'm thinking of nabbing one of the spot weld drillers from them when I buy the Devilbiss "Finishline" paint gun- maybe I'll grab the seam sealer too. (The gravity feed paint gun goes for $100; around here, Home Depot wants $100 for a Campbell Hausfeld one. I'll stick with CH for my air tools, but I think I'd prefer Devilbiss for the spray gun!)

deadbird, thanks AGAIN for the new pic!! I'm over here laughing because I can't believe you just grabbed the interior plastic and pulled back! Good idea on the wet rag over the gas area. I wonder if I'll have to drop the tank (I'm not scared of dropping it; I've dropped it twice already, damn fuel pump!) to take care of the inner rear wheelwell. Yeah, I'm on the passenger side; but one never knows! (Plus, then, I'd feel safer welding inside the garage.) Thanks for the spray bottle tip. Do you worry about rust after using the spray bottle on bare metal? Or do you cover it all in a por-15 or a zinc wash?

That's cool; I didn't even know an arc welder (on it's own, besides those special spot weld & stitch weld attachments) could take care of sheet metal. Any book I read told me that it would cut thru sheet metal because it was too powerful. That's the big LE welder that looks like an old-school wooden radio?

I'm going to try and take pics of the damage tonight. You think your $130 cam is bad? Wait till you see my $60 pencam. The inner fender is shot around the wheelwell lip, and has a few large rust holes "inside".

So the majority of all these spot welds are on the bottom of the car, then... and against the inner fender panel. I suppose I can handle that much. The butt weld against the b-pillar wouldn't be that bad. Thanks to everyone here, I'm looking at the project with a little less panic than I was before! I'm even drawing lines in the dirt on my car, just to see where I'd weld.

I checked out your website, and damn, great site!! I love all the painting info on there! And the pic of how you rigged the door handle is great, too. (The car I remember had a blazer handle, but that was years ago- and nobody had any "work" pictures of it, just a finished shot.) Were those collision diagrams from a GM book?

I wonder; if I bought a quarter from a junkyard, maybe I can get the guy to chop off the whole rear side of the car. Then, maybe I wouldn't have to weld the inner wheelwell to the outer quarter... I could just weld the inner wheelwell to the frame, and the outer quarter to the outer sheetmetal. Hm. I'll try to get pics up for tomorrow morning!

deadbird

Glad to hear my site was of some useful viewing for ya bud. One day tho.. I might actually finish updating it (yeah.. about like finishing my car... lol).
I think the car you're thinking of was a 90 or so dark blue camaro that had fullsize chevy truck handles put on it of a similar year. It had like 3 pics of the "work" and one crappy overall of the car done that you couldn't see the doorhandle for squat (my conclusion was that it must not have looked so good close up).
Yes, the collision guide scans on my site are from a Motor collision estimating guidebook. I only edited out the prices since they aren't accurate anymore due to the age of the book.

I can bet you one reason your search came up empty is mostly because this thing is not something alot of people can tackle easily. If it doesn't bolt on & align easily.. hell w/it.. I'll pay someone. Other reason is probably the cost a bodyshop charges is extremely unreasonable (IMO).

I don't much worry about rust (or much of anything really) when using water because I usually keep a dry towel under where I'm cooling to catch runoff & then wipe the spot dry. Then, when you make your next spot a shot area away,, the heat from the weld will burn off any leftover water. I've never used por-15 or really desired since there are so many alternatives (some better, some worse.. application varies). Usually, over a large area, I'll use galvaprime but, for small areas, I just use ZRC ( http://www.zrcworldwide.com/galds.htm ). It's roughly $6-8 an aerosol can and available at most welder supply stores. Small can, high price but, you don't have to use alot to cover the area.
The other nice thing about water.. forsay you catch yourself on fire.. it extinguishes & cools at the same time.. (not that I've ever had that happen.. )

That ARC welder is pretty much dead up what I used the past 5 yrs on light gauge metal. It's very easy to torch light gauge metal with it but, if you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. I always ran mine in the 65-105A range depending on what I was doing. MIG is definatly (IMO again) the way to go for making the cleanist welds tho.

If you open your door, you can see where the ¼ panel skin wraps the jamb piller from top to bottom. All the small divits you see on that seam are spot welds. Basically the entire perimeter of the ¼ is spot welded (mostly easily accessable as well) with regads to where I noted above.

*if you think that last pis is humorous.. you'd have loved to watch me actually fix that ¼ panel

Keep in mind.. all this is just the way i do crap.. I'm by far no pro.. I just use techniques I'm comfortable with & know how to do which, in the end, right way or not by whomevers standards.. nets me the same end result.. a finished product. It's also a good excuse to toss back a few frosty beverages while looking busy

Fastcamaro87

i have removed complete rear 1/4 panels from thirdgens a few times, i drilled out all the spot welds the first time i did it,and it took forever, there are so many of them you will go crazy, right now i have 2 complete rear 1/4`s for sale they are in very nice shape, and if you are interested feel free to email me or pm me.
if you want pictures of a finished removed 1/4 with all the welds drilled ill try to post it later.

TomP

Yeah, maybe that was the car I'm thinking of. I dont' even remember any pics of the work done; I just remember someone saying "I found this pic, how hard would it be to do?" Like I said this was a lonnng time ago, glad you've got pictures of your job up! I'm hoping to hit a junkyard this Sunday for a 1/4 panel, so I'll have to look at some car doors to find the "right" handle for me.

I found collision guides at a GM site, I think gmgoodwrench.com ? Problem is, they're for the 4th gen f-bodies... what a shame.

And yeah, same is true for many people on here. If it doesn't bolt up, they don't do it. Hell, sometimes, if it DOES bolt up, they still don't do it themselves. (Example: cat-back exhaust) I have a friend in a car club, it's the "import scene", if it's harder than shocks or an air intake or rims, they bring their car somewhere to have the work done. One guy's spending $3500 to convert his honda into a lexus look-a-like! Imagine if he did the work himself. But I think it's different now; it's more like "how much did you spend?" as opposed to "wow, you did it yourself?"

Thanks for the info on the ZRC. I'll have to visit my welding shop this Saturday, I think they're open until 12:00 noon. That's a weld thru coating, right? When I re-do the spot welds, do I spray the coating over all metal, then weld, then spray the coating again? Or can't this stuff be painted over? I've heard of OSOPHO too, for stopping rust, supposdly Ace Hardware carries it.

Fastcamaro, does "pgh" stand for pittsburg? If so, I could never drive all the way to get that 1/4; it'd kill me from Central NJ! Are they Firebird panels? I'll send you a PM about 'em. And if you could post a pic of the finished 1/4, I'd really appreciate it!

Anyone know how the inner fender attaches to the frame?

I took pics of the damage around lunchtime, I'll try to get 'em up. Be prepared for RUST!

TomP

Okay, here's the damage shots! I put a description on each picture. Think I've got my work cut out for me? (or is that, "rusted out"?) Oops, pic is too big, gotta split it into two posts.

TomP

Part 2 of my damage

TomP

Oops

TomP

Part 3 (final) of the damage to my 1/4 panel!

TomP

So, there's my problem. Check out the roof crack picture. There's one crack that seems to be running exactly where the quarter panel butt-weld is!

Notice how my entire wheelwell lip is gone. As you can see in the last pic, the lip is actually cracked! That whole wheelwell lip had a thin coat of filler on it. When I did the bodywork, I thought I killed all the rust- I guess it just grew underneath the bondo. (sigh) Same thing (bondo) with the damage at the front of the 1/4 panel, picture #3. That had a skim coat of filler on it, too.

See the picture with the inner 1/4 crack? See the bulge sticking out of the rust hole? That's a garbage bag! I'm getting water inside the car like crazy when I drive in the rain.

So, any thoughts besides "junk the car"?

HamsterOnaMission

Someone might of already said this, but i didn't read the whole thread. When i did both of mine, i cut the passanger side off below the edge, cut the replacement to match, and welded just along my new seam. and let me tell you, getting the fiberglass and bondo to look right was a PITA. The replacements i had were a little bigger, so on the driver side, i cut below the flange again but this time, left the replacement whole. it had the edge at the top in it already and pushed over the factory edge, so all i had to do was weld along the top, then cover it with bondo. Some sanding block work on the top edge, and it looked just as good as the other side, but at a fraction of the effort.

89Formula305

TomP that hole in the wheel well is not part of the quarter...its the outer wheel housing.....and if your getting water in the the car then the inner wheelhousing has a hole too..

deadbird

... my.. that does look bad but, not hopless.

Most of it apprears to be cosmetic (except the large hole in the inner fender). The corner that is missing behind the tire is about 85% ¼ panel anyways and what isn't can be fixed realitively easy with some flat metal or pieces parts cut from a donor car.

I'd say replacing the inner fender would be a bit more of a challange that even I'd want to take on with the tools I have. Id say your best bet would be to splice in what you need for the fender lip and patch the trash bag hole. By patch I mean cut the affected area out to clean up the rusty metal some and then cut a patch from a donor car somewhat larger than the affected area. Treat the inside however you can with some sort of rust inhibitor. And clean the outside up with a grinder or whatever you've got available. Do the same for the patch panel.
Size the 2 parts together to make sure it will be a roughly flat.
Get a tube or can or whatever of body seam sealer (the grey hard crap) and liberally coat the entire patch piece that will be comming in contact with the inner fender and stick it on. This should seal the hole (cuz the crap will ooze inside the car if you use the right amount) and clean up any on the outside. Let the crap dry then come back & tack the corners down & a few other tack welds just to add a bit of strength. Grind down any high spots/sharp edges & liberally undercoat (I'd personally use truckbed liner.. harder/more moisture/chemical resistant).
After the undercoat, you'll be the only one to know it's there (unless you like pointing out your flawless works )
Keep in mind... this probably isn't the correct way.. just my approach to the situation if it were mine.

ZRC is not a weld thru primer although you can weld on it. Makes for a crappy weld though (but a neat blue flame when welding on it ). I have applied it straight to the rusted top of a friends truck (just walked out & sprayed it on) and that spot has yet to come thru the coating, somewhere about 2 years now (I say coating because ZRC is not a primer).

I've got to get my butt moving now tho.. if it makes you feel any better, you're not alone when it comes to rust. Here's the (one of many) fix I had to do on my bud's 72 truck front fender.. a common problem on these trucks.

I'm sure you can follow the order.. rot, patch panel/fit, tack in place, weld/grind, bodyfiller, ZRC, urethane primer surfacer, paint.

Morley

Yes a flange is much stronger and easier to work with. I wouldn't spot weld the whole thing though. Just spot it to keep it in place then stitch weld it (check Eastwood's catalog). You'll end up with a very strong joint and a professional looking repair job that takes very little filler to complete.


~M~

deadbird

That's debatable but, as I said.. everyone has their own ways and, Tom is looking for opinions/data.

redraif

I just had to comment on this...

I have been showing my car since Sept-Oct of 2000 (can't remember exact date). Anyway the main shows around here are import type shows. These kids are clueless for the most part. No wonder they have given themselves a bad name. They talk crap about a car they didn't build.

There are a few really tallented guys out there that I have met though. One has an unbelievable civic. The entire interior was redone in fiberglass. Interior and exterior is pearl silver with ghost tribal flames. The thing is beautiful. Engine is all done in chrome. He did every bit of it. He was explaining the whole process to me at Super Chevy this weekend. He has a truck he is doing now.

Most of these guys can't even replace their own plug wires. I think thats why the work I have done on my car seems to get glazed over. Besides the fact that I'm a girl, none of them can even fathom that I did all the mods myself, or that anyone would do their own mods. They just run around bragging about the $1000s they have dropped in their cars. Turns it into a $ contest.

Sorry just had to add that. Back on track. Tom P your rust spots look like the 1/4s on my scout. We are having to do 1/4 replacement s on it as well. Its been on hold till I can get a place to work on it. Basement has Joe's SS in it right now. On it we will more than likely butt weld the new 1/4s in. Those things are so prone to rust. I just hope the rust is not worse than we think. Are both your 1/4s that rusty, or just the one? That crack in the roof is insane. Do you have subframe connectors?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It really doesn't look that bad.. I've fixed worse. if I were you i'd cut the rot out, and reconstruct the wheel well from the backside, then finish it up with mud.

-- Joe

TomP

Anesthes, you should see it up close- it looks worse! And deadbird, yeah, the more opinions the better; I'm not taking anyones ideas as 100% until I start the work, because who knows what I'll run into that would change the whole repair! I won't come back in here and yell "Mr. ThisGuy told me the wrong thing to weld and my car broke in half!"

Morley, I can't use a stitch welder with my machine. In eastwood, check out the Weld-Pak 100, not the MIG-Pak10/15. That's my welder, with the newly installed gas conversion kit. The WeldPak 100 has no provision for any of the fancy timers that the MigPak's can take. Plus, I don't really want to dump another $150 for their complete arc welding kit (arc welder, spot welder, stitch welder) after spending $150 for my MIG's gas bottle. So it's going to be all manual spot/tack welding for me! But I could use all the strength I can get, thanks for adding that bit about the flanging!

Red, they always say money talks & bs walks- for cars, I think the opposite. Same with those $1 million restored cars in Hot Rod, where all the owner did was use his checkbook instead of use a wrench. But as for the 1/4 panel rust, it's just the one side. That's actually the side that was fixed before I bought the car- it was totalled on the right rear, and a bodyman fixed it up for his son. When I primered/painted the car, there was red paint under my blue paint. The other side is perfect, except for one glitch... it was a heavy snow, I lowered my air shocks, and backed out of a steep driveway- the P275's caught the inner wheelwell lip, and pulled it outward between two spot welds, and cracked the only bit of filler on the panel. But that's an easy repair..

The roof was a compound problem. I didn't know GM had filled that spot with lead, and was sanding it down when I did the body work. I thought it was an odd colored filler, and I wanted to remove all the old filler from the previous guy. Well, I couldn't get rid of it all, so I laid my bondo over it, smoothed it out, and painted it. Of course, I couldn't fix the little roof crack since I didn't have my welder then, so I just left it. Later, I was complaining about that spot to the Maaco guy, and he says yeah, they always crack there, in fact, GM fills that spot with lead! (And there I was, a few weeks earlier, sanding it away, with no shirt, no dustmask, and no safety goggles. DAMMIT!) Oh- yeah, so I think the huge crack is mainly my bondo job falling apart. I'm thinking about adding subframe connectors this summer, just because the cracking inner wheel well has freaked me out.

I did some poking around yesterday with my finger on the inner wheelwell- ouch. The rust hole migrated upward, to join with another rust hole that I had in the top center of the wheelwell. So, basically, my whole inner wheel well is split into two pieces- the part hanging on to the 1/4 panel, and the part on the car. What's odd is, that inner wheelwell doesn't seem that thick, so I'm not sure if it's structural or not, but the crack/expansion of the rust hole seem to say otherwise. I guess the unibody design is "carefully" constructed, using thin sheetmetal as a basis, and every little bit is important? Ugh.

I went looking in yards for a Firebird rear quarter (and front bumper, damn parking lots!), and found ONE Firebird. WTF? The yard I go to usually has 3 Firebirds and 5 Camaros- all they had was ONE camaro. The one Firebird had rust on the quarter- and I'm not going thru that again if I can help it!

So, after looking at my destroyed inner wheelwell last night, I think I'm hitting the yards this weekend, looking for an f-body (camaro or firebird) that's totalled on the right rear, meaning, a destroyed 1/4, and seeing if I can cut the inner wheel well completely out. I don't think the yard would mind if the 1/4 is bashed in.

I'll do what you guys have suggested so far; seems like the easiest. I'll leave the "good metal" of the inner wheelwell alone- that's basically just the part against the frame. The rest gets cut out. Then I'll weld the junkyard panel against the "good metal". Deadbird, you say to tack it in place just to hold it/align it, then to add a few welds. What kind of welds? Lap welds? Think I should do a bunch of spot welds? I don't know if I could flange such a curved piece, but it's the inner wheelwell, nobody would see if if I overlapped it. (Oh, I should probably make sure that everything lines up like it should for the fenderwell lip if I overlap instead of flange!)

Then, that repair will stay like that until I can find a 1/4 panel. Hopefully that'll be soon. I've kind of put all my other plans on hold (rebuild engine, rebuild trans, fix rear axle) because this cracking frame is freaky.

I'm considering buying a parts car. I'm sure I can find a sucke... er, a friend, who would let me keep the car at their joint for a few weeks.

Oh, yeah, almost forgot- I tried GMAW welding this weekend! Wow, I can't believe how much cleaner it is than the flux core (FCAW) welding!! The weld puddles look more like a smooth bead than a series of overlapping pancakes. (took me 4 tries to spell pancakes... argh) I drew some beads on a practice scrap of 1/8", 2" wide steel plate, and they came out pretty good. I experimented with the wire speed, and lowered it, and it was weird- the wire kept feeding into a puddle- no MIG-style "sizzle", or sparks, or anything. It threw me off for a good 10 minutes until I realized "Oh yeah! I turned the wire speed down!" Duh.

Deadbird, I picked up a can of anti-spatter gel ($6) and "Spray Galv" from the welding store- it was the only galvanizing stuff they had. (That anti spatter gel was fun! I can't believe how clean it kept the nozzle!!) What I'm confused about is this- say I flange weld two panels together with spot welds. How do I keep the metal between the spot welds (between one panel and the other), from rusting? Won't water creep in? By just spraying the whole area with spray galv, does that somehow protect the two bare pieces of metal that rest against each other between spot welds? Know what I mean? Like... O===O The O's are spot welds. The =='s are two panels overlapping against each other. What stops the bare metal in between the overlap from rusting?

Or, do I do one final weld across the whole top of the flange, to seal off the spot welds from the outside world?

You said you applied the ZRC over filler- was that a typo? I would've thought you'd put the ZRC on first, then the filler. Will filler stick to ZRC? I'm thinking about spraying the galv stuff on a rusty scrap of steel, leaving it outside, and seeing what happens.

Dammit this is long. See what I come up with after a weekend of not going on the computer? Thanks again, everyone, for all the help (and for reading this far!)!!

MDv6man

Tom -- I know a guy who has a formula body and a blown up 6. he's putting the 8 into his firebird and the body on the formula is pretty good. E-mail me if you want more details

2vmodular

know this is your first car, but usually by the time the rear quaters are rusted that severely the rest of the car has a significant amount of rust too. trouble points on thirdgens include the strut towers, lower door skin lip, rocker panels, floor, brake and fuel lines.

quarter panel replacement is possible, but most of the people that have posted in this thread have done the task before. also, it appears that most of the cars were project cars and not daily drivers. so it was of little concern if the job took a week or two to complete. car rentals are around $25/day which can add up quickly.

Edzz

Body shops also use an epoxy to replace welding metal body parts together.

No warping from heat. No burning off of paint behind the weld. The epoxy is VERY strong. It's like $35.00/tube (about the size of a toothpaste tube). Ask around at local shops.

Ed

TomP

MDv6, really? I couldn't really tow the car up here, that'd be a hell of a bill, but maybe I could come down for the parts. Hm. I'll send you an email!

2vmodular, the rest of the car is pretty much rust free. The strut towers are fine. The lower door skins are rusting, but then again, so was my original set of doors. (Those were even worse! Yes, I have '84 doors on my '86, and I put my '86 power windows into them.) The fuel lines only show rust around the fuel filter. The brake lines are okay; I recently rebuilt a 3.73/posi/disc axle for my car, and the brake lines are rust free. Too bad the posi blew, and that axle's in my backyard. But I also replaced the front-to-rear brake line for the 3.73 swap, and there's only a bit of rust on it. I plan to POR-15 those rusty areas this summer. Thanks for the opinions tho!

Edzz, I've seen that epoxy, and heard good things about it too. But, I'd rather use my welder for the reason I bought it; to weld the 1/4 panel on. Plus, aren't rivets supposed to be used in conjunction with the epoxy? Or is that just the eastwoodcompany.com "kit" method of weld-free panel replacement?

TomP

I had a further thought during my lunch hour... I should remove the plastic panels inside the car, from the rear passenger area. I bet I'll be able to see the inner wheelwell very clearly! 'Fact, if I'm right, I'll be able to do my welding from inside the car.

davecamaro

I got the exact same problem as your car, but im not going to replace the quarter panel but just rebondo the sucker and do it right this time.

Bad mistake that chevy didnt make them so you could just remove it like the front fenders.

deadbird

Tom.. even tho I'm not a betting type guy.. I'd place a wadger that removing your interior panels would net you no gain on your problem. Even if you can see the problem.. it's doubtful you could access it from the inside (aside from shotting some rust treatment towards it).

A flange or butt weld will hafe to be treated on the backside regardless of how well you weld it.

ZRC (or equivilant) is not a weld thru primer. The reson I put it on top is ZRC is not a sealer.. it's a zinc treatment. If you're feeling about laying bodyfiller on bare metal.. treat it with Galvaprime or epoxy sealer 1st... from there you can do bodywork on top of that.

If you're replacing the entire ¼ panel.. flanging is not a concern of yours (and yes.. flanging a curved surface ..ie.. like I spliced my ¼..will warp the panel).
On the inner fender parts.. I'd just overlap parts & "glue" in place then tack for added strength as I said above (keep in mind.. I'm going by my approach which there are many ways to it). It's just an inner fender & the undercoating of choice will had it.

Epoxy my be fine in certain circumstances.. but, so is fiberglass. Your case calls for a welded bond.

dave.. putting bodyfiller over a hole (especially that has the chance of seeing water) is not 'doing it right'. Bodyfiller is made out of alot of Talc.. I'm sure you can draw your own conclusion from that. Putting bodyfiller on a rust hole is merely a band-aid to the real problem. You can seal it, galvanize it or whatever you like.. if there is bodyfiller in a hole.. it will resurface eventually. Problem being.. it will be worse than had you not done anything at all.

But, that's just my opinion.. I could be wrong - Dennis Miller

If I forgot something .. you can always feel free to email me at GTA1@csi.com

TomP

I did some poking with my finger again; and I think what I'm feeling above the center of the wheel (in the wheelwell) is the sound deadening carpet that's back there. I'll take the plastic off anyway, luckily, it's the passenger side, so it'll be easy. That one's been off at least 50 times since I've owned the car!

One prob I have with overlapping new inner wheelwell metal is that I also need that wheel well lip. The overlap might throw the lip off. Hm, now that I think about it, I could fix the "innermost" inner wheel well first, then replace the quarter. When the quarter is lined up perfect, then I'll replace the "outermost" inner wheel well- including that lip. Then I could line the inner panel's lip up to meet the quarter panel lip. Yes! I think. True about the flange warping the panel; that is a pretty tight curve.

Dave, don't do it!! Why do you think my 1/4 looks like it does? I re-did the other guys' job, and found rust underneath. I used a rattle-can rust convertor, laid down new filler (perfectly), finished prepping the rest of the car, and had a great looking car for 3 years. Keep in mind, at the time of my job, there were NO rust holes, in fact, there were no holes of any kind! I laid my filler ("Ultimate Bondo", sky-blue can) down on a solid body. Apparently, the rattle-can rust convertor didn't work for crap, because look at the car 5 years later.

And like I said, when I did my filler work, there was no hole ANYWHERE. You could do your filler as perfect as I did mine, and you'll wind up with a worse looking mess! Keep this in mind, too: Bondo is NOT waterproof. Don't do like some of these dorks do, and drive around for weeks with their bondo repair unpainted- unknown to them, that filler is soaking up water, and causing a rust forest underneath.

As for the 1/4 panel, one more thing I noticed - the quarterpanel, where it wraps around at the bottom of the doorjam- WTF is up with the rocker panel?!? Looks like the damn thing is welded to the 1/4! I couldn't dive around on the parking lot too much yesterday, but, it looks like the rocker would have to be removed to get at the 1/4 panel. Damn. I wonder if I can carefully cut in that area, and overlap the new 1/4 onto the old, or maybe do a butt weld. Whatchya think?

MDv6man

There are waterproof body fillers made that last alot longer than bondo -- Duraglass is one that is supposedly waterproof. Also for waterproof fillers -- check out a boating supply store. Their fiberglass filler would almost have to be waterproof

Ergo60

TomP.
Thanks for posting the pics, now my POS doesnt look so bad after all I have a friend who has owned/Worked in a body shop for over 25 years. He is comming down next weekend to get me started on repairing the surface rust on my project 82 Z. I will print the thread and see what he has to say on how to fix it. I have seem a full size suburban in his shop with the complete drivers side sheet metal removed, and the next week it is mint. So if it can be done he knows how. I am looking now at how to replace the floor pans for the rear seat passengers in mine. It is the worst rust I have, the floor boards have a crunching sound when steped on I talked to my friend on how to fix them, and he said that I can either get replacements, go to the junk yard, or his favorite, not the best, but quick way was to cut a patch panel out of an old hood, and rivit/epoxy it in place over to old one. Not to pretty underneath, but hold well.

I cant wait to see how yours comes out, I have to give you credit, that repaire would make me think twice. Do you have a web site? that would be a great step by step page, and would be a great help to us who will have to do it in the future.

TomP

MD, true, I never thought of that. Maybe I'll have to abandon my "ultimate bondo" can and check out the fiberglass stuff! I only thought about fiberglass for doing custom panels, not for patching dents. Hm.

Er60, glad I could make your car look better! Yeah, if you could tell me what your buddy says, I'd really appreciate it. I'm going to do more junkyard crawling this weekend to see what I can find. Look at Home Depot, too; at the one by me, they sell sheets of 1/16" steel, and you can buy it galvanized (zinc protected against rust) or not. They also sell sheets of aluminum by the HVAC heating duct areas. Have you seen http://www.por15.com ? I'm 99% sure they show an old tech article where they replace a bit of a trunk floor,a nd use POR-15 to keep the rust from reappearing on the edges.

I don't have a website; I've been working it for, oh, hell, 7 years now? Maybe this summer- but I say that every summer. I do plan to make a big frickin' page about this, though, and I'll credit anyone that wants to be mentioned. I think it's such a shame that this information can't be found ANYWHERE on the internet- except for this exact message. Granted, not too many people would tackle such a task, but what about the few that want to? Geez, we've broken down about every way of replacing a 1/4 in this message! Good for us!

I'll definately take more pencam pics if I do any work this weekend.

deadbird

Fiberglass is not waterproof by itself.. it will end up in the same results as bodyfiller when patching a hole (although.. it may take a month long to show). From the very small amount I know about boats.. fiberglass.. gelcoat, epoxy primer & boat specific paints make boats 'waterproof'. I may be somewhat wrong about that tho... but I can 100% say that (body supply store) fiberglass (fiberglass is fiberglass in my book) is not a 'waterproof' alternative to bodyfiller.

Tom.. your pencam shot aren't much worse than my Kodak cam shots.. here's one from earlier this afternoon (note.. not me in the pic but, that is me beverage ).. I'm in the middle of a TPi swap on my buds 72 chevy truck.... talk about headache .. I'd rather swap ¼ panels on a 3rdgen

TomP

Well hey, if you want to trade; you could do my 1/4 panel, and I'll help your buddy with the motor! Isn't that "OSOPHO" primer an epoxy primer? Some guy was yelling at me on here that POR-15 sucked, and OSOPHO was the way to go. ('Course, he couldn't tell me why por-15 sucked...)

Guess what?! I bought a 1/4 panel this weekend! The guy is actually going to cut off the right rear side of the car for me! And the price! $165! I was expecting $300-$400, and was prepared to haggle for a lower price- but wow! It was in a junkyard that I don't like too much- and it was the first f-body I checked out. It's an '86, and as a bonus, the 1/4 is in perfect condition- no dents at ALL! There's a scrap of rust on the wheel well lip where it faces "down" to the pavement; but I think every thirdgen has rust on that spot. I'll just POR-15 the crap out of it. Man, I can't wait to pick that thing up.

And deadbird, I pulled off that plastic piece between the passenger door and spare tire compartment... and nearly sht a brick. I'll try to get some pictures up during lunch, which is right now, look at that! It's -bad-. Funny, you don't quite realize where the wheelwell actually appears inside the car. I was staring at the cracks/holes in the inner wheel well as I stood outside the car- but had no idea that the rear passenger was almost falling out of the car. Looking at the damage from the inside of the car was a real shocker.

89Formula305

I hear ya, its devistating seeing how bad its rotted out there...sorry about the pics being big..

89Formula305

heres what I did this weekend..

TomP

Oh.. my... f'ing... gawd! Damn dude, that's impressive as hell! I can't wait to see your webpage on this!! Wow. Took me a while to realize that was your Firebird, and not another car you were working on. Was the floor of yours really that shot?? (Be careful of those cinder blocks; but I guess you know those stories already, eh? About the blocks crumbling without warning? Haha, although, from that picture, they're not supporting much! )