TomP

Okay, so I scratched the heck out of my paint with my buffer. I figured it was the bonnets; they've been used to do the car twice. (I use the Meguiar's 3-step system. I use one bonnet for the "cleaner". I remove the cleaner by hand, and use another bonnet for the "polish". I remove the polish by hand, then apply & remove the final "wax" coat by hand.) So, I rinsed the bonnets in warm water and dried 'em with paper towels. I tried again- and I could swear I'm scratching the surface more.

What gives? Did I clean the bonnets wrong? Or, am I using the buffer wrong? I use light pressure, and keep the thing flat.. I try to let the buffer do the work and not me. I'd buy new bonnets but if it's my technique that sucks, I don't want to scratch the paint up even more.

And what should I do between sections of panel? I know with a hand towel, you're supposed to "apply to a small area, and turn cloth frequently". How do you do that with a bonnet? Do I have to wash the bonnets every 5 minutes?

Thanks!


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

Nightcruzer

I don't know if this helps but maybe you are using the wrong type of pad/bonnet for your machine.
According to the Automotive Paint Handbook "Pads are generally used with the rotary buffer/polisher (true circular motion) and bonnets with orbital tools (mimicks up/down and back/forth hand motion). Pads can be grouped into two categories: cutting and finishing pads. Without exception, the cutting pad (woven wool) will cause swirl marks....That is why you must follow its use with a finishing pad (sheepskin, synthetic mix or foam).

TomP

I heard that the wool pads are a deep cutter; that's why I wasn't using them. I was sticking with foam.. I have an orbital buffer. Both pads were marked as for applying polish and wax.. and both of 'em are foam.

Should I use wool? I'm afraid I'll cut through the paint. I'm not getting swirl marks as I am -scratches- .. although some of the scratches have a swirl pattern to 'em!

Does anyone use a orbital buffer here? What do ya use? I've got the three steps; cleaner, then polish, and I apply the wax by hand.


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

Matt_91RSTPI

I have an orbital and have used the Meguire's three step process. However, I only use the orbital to remove the product. I apply everything by hand with the Meguires foam pads. Also. I go over the car with a wool bonnet at the end to polish it out. Seems to work pretty good.

Matt

MikeInAZ

Hey Tom.... don't mean to insult but your not using pro products but your wanting a pro job. Industry speaking you would want something like a Dewalt DW849 9" buffer and a 3M lambs wool pad. Using 3M Perfect It Rubbing compound at about 2000 to 3000 RPM.

Then you would switch to a Foam Polishing Pad and 3M Machine glaze at 1800 RPM. Then wax.

Anything less than this may not produce the results I think you're looking for.

zee28

never use a buffer of any kind unless you know how to use it.These things seem so easy to people because they do the work.Have you tried a good product applied and removed by hand.Some marks, the worlds greatest buffer wont take out.and I dont care what any wax/polish says,rubbing your car in circles is wrong,and a buffer does this over and over.In the hands of someone who knows them ,im sure they are good for something.

------------------
~mike~86 IROC-Z

MikeInAZ

You are right. A buffer in the wrong hands can be dangerous...to you and your car. When I first started buffing I yanked the wiper off my 53 Chevy and scratched the heck outta' my hood. Then there was the time I got the cord caught around the spindle at high speed and almost yanked my finger off.

There is a difference in buffing your car as in waxing and that is when you don't want to go in circles due to leaving swirl marks.

However I have never seen a show quality paint job that didn't include the following basics:
Good Base Coat
3 Coats Minumum Clear Coat
Color sand 1000/1200 to level paint.
Buff with rubbing compound.
Polish with Machine Glaze.
And if desired finish with hand glaze.

These are the completion steps of a paint job. This is pre-wax. Wax is to protect what you have just done.

To hand compound a car would be extremely time consuming and honestly would not produce as good of results because it is hard to be consistent overall....by hand.

TomP

MikeInAz, naw, I'm not offended; I know my dad's old black & decker random orbital buffer is nowhere near the pro stuff!

What's odd is that my scratches are random... maybe I should've written my message differently. I made it out to sound like my hood looks like a busted & spiderwebb'd windshield! There are a bunch of scratches, yeah, but they're not in any pattern, and they don't cover the hood. If you look at a 12 inch by 12 inch square piece of my hood, you'll see about 3 scratches thru it; in the same direction as I was pulling the buffer. And, the more times I buff the hood, at least one scratch gets added.

That's why I think that I'm cleaning the bonnets wrong, or not as frequently, or something! I'm betting my scratches are dirt that I've picked up. My first buffing attempt didn't have scratches, just swirl marks, and that's when I found out I'm not supposed to move the buffer in a circle, just straight lines. Should I just chuck the bonnets and start with new? Do I coat the bonnets with polish first? What happens when the bonnets turn blue- is that a sign that I need to throw 'em out or clean 'em? (That happens quickly... maybe after doing 1/6th of my hood.)

My paint has no clear; as I mentioned before it's a Maaco job that I had them mix the clearcoat in with- hey, it was only $80, they wanted $120 for a normal clearcoat! (Stupid, stupid decision...) The paint (and shine) was doing great until I had a year's worth of "having fun" and didn't pay attention to washing/waxing my car as much as I used to.. after a while, I noticed the shine was down, but didn't care. Soon after that, my friends started getting new cars, and I went from "best looking paint" to "oh, it's supposed to be dark blue?" So, now, I've started to care again.

So late last summer I polished it by hand, it came out pretty good, but I noticed it was uneven. My paint's pretty faded, and you could almost see where I was strong and where I got weaker and where the rubbing overlapped. So then I broke out my dad's buffer in mid-fall; and it came out much better... seemed to shine more. Now, forget it.. I'll get a shine, but now I get scratches.

And what completely pisses me off is after a few days, or one rainshower, the shine is GONE! Where's it go? WTF? (sigh) Maybe I should leave the Meguiar's 3-step "crystal" system behind, and move to somethign else... but I'd expect my car's shine to fade after a few days anyway.

Maybe it's time for some new car-washing towels... could old "getting hard" towels remove wax?

Thanks for any/all ideas, guys! Sorry this was so long...

------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited June 21, 2001).]

MikeInAZ

Hey Tom,

The kind of paint job you have may be producing some of your problem. Basecoat/Clearcoat produces the most durable and attractive finish. A basecoat alone is very weak. You say you mixed in the clear which if it were a basecoat/clearcoat type paint some of your basecoat would wind up being exposed to the elements which would dull and breakdown.

I'm thinking the most effective solution would be to rough up the blue coat for adhesion with some 400/600 making sure to not cut through the color and have your car clear coated. It might salvage the paint job for lesser money overall and be much easier to maintain in the future.

Your bonnet is probably picking up paint/compound buildup in one spot and repeatedly scratching. When in doubt get a new pad. It's a pretty cheap solution vs the alternatives.

good luck

TomP

Wow, I never thought of that! I wonder if that would explain the water spots that plague my car if a lawn sprinker hits my paint... the clear's fine (and doesn't spot), but the basecoat gets attacked.

My doors look like crap; maybe I'll give a section of the driver's door a sanding with a shot of clear to see how it comes out. Do clearcoats get sanded after they're sprayed?

I'll hunt down some new bonnets, too.. should I bother cleaning the new ones when I'm done, or just throw 'em out?

Thanks!


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

MikeInAZ

I reckon' that depends on the cost of the wool pad you are using. I use one that cost 22 bucks so I clean it all during the process of buffing and after I'm done to get the most life out of it.

In a nutshell the steps in a paint job would be:

1. Body repair - straightening the metal and minimal amount of filler if necessary.
2. Primer for the repaired areas and wetsand with 400.
3. Sealer sprayed on the repaired areas.
4. Basecoat
5. Clearcoat.
6. Wetsand with 1000/1200 til level.
7. Buff with compound @ 2000 to 3000 RPM.
8. Buff with machine glaze @ 1800.
9. Hand glaze.

Realize this is greatly simplified and there are some variables. Don't use cheap clear. The new generation high solids clearcoats are tuff, easy to work, and durable.

TomP

Wool? I'm using foam pads... I read that wool was more aggressive, and you can burn thru the paint if you're not careful. Is that wrong? Or should I just buy some wool pads and baby the hell out of the buffer?

How do you clean the pads, anyway? Throw 'em in the washer? Rub 'em with Dawn dishwasher detergent and hot water?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

MikeInAZ

Tom,

I'm about to post (couple of days) an article on my website that covers these issues. It might answer more questions and be a little easier.

http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/tips.htm