Kevs87Z28

when it comes down to it the question i wanna know and im sure everyone else wants to know is whats wrong with the badges you have? not cosmetically i mean what i am saying is there something u have done or are doing that earns another step on the ladder i guess you'd say?

granted tpiroc thats a nice car i'm not denying that. i respect it dont get me wrong but the highest level i think its earned is IROC and you can't go higher.

third gens didnt get ss badges not because they didnt deserve them. i think IROC is a step above ss but thats just me.

flyinlow92rs has a great car and i'm glad he has done what he has to it. it has my respect as well and i'm glad no one is forcing him into ss badges because its better than that. that thing is so good it should have no badges just a bowtie and a constant puddle of drool on the ground everytime someone stands close enough to appreciate the beauty.

PyRo9862

I think we have already discovered we cannot force him into things with that wing

BirdsofPray

Yes, that clearly illustrates one of my points. The designation only derives meaning directly from what the factory originally intended it to mean in the first place. An SS Nova, Camaro, S-10 or whatever all have totally different specifications.

Thus, once again, a 3rdgen SS is meaningless.

tpiroc

Then why are so many people angry about it...

CamarosRUS

what if i tookan SC frame and put a 1992 z28 shell on it and swapped a 1992 z28 drivetrain in it with a z28 interior? is it still an SC?

PyRo9862

No its a wierd hybrid
Actually, that I would call a z28, its got all the z28 stuff, the z28 vin and the numbers matching motor.

noarch

I really don't think that anyones taken a less.. philosophical look at it..
A car's emblems and trim are decided solely by it's options...
So then if you make a 3rd Generation Camaro have the options similar to that of a modern day SS, and you then put the emblems on it... It would be much in the same. This is true not just for SS and 3rd Generation Camaro's, but any car with a different trim level.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

GM should have given the 3rdgen all kinds of trim levels... examples:

SC
Z28
IROC-Z
SS
GT
GTS
GTZ
GS
GX
GLX
XT
LT
LTZ
RT
RT/Z

This way this whole discussion wouldn't be a problem.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I didn't mean to correct you, I honestly didn't even know you put R-Type. I just put quotes around it. Sorry if it seemed intentional.

I think of a lot of the 60's clone-cars. You see Chevelle SS clone and Z28 clone. Its all personal preference I guess. To me, I couldn't honeslty tell people I drove an IROC or an SS if my car was really just an RS. Again, just me tho.

Agreed.

drain89

iTrader: (10)

Remeber, there were first gen camaros that had BOTH the RS and SS package from the factory. When I think of the SS's of that day I think of just the motors that come in them. RS's were more of an appearance package to add "flash". However, Z28's were thorogbreds of that era that were respectibly fast, when setup right and geared right, and great handling cars (for the day).

I personally don't think that anything from that era should have had SS put on it if it had less than 396ci. Considering that no production gm car will ever come with a big block ever again....I can understand gm using the SS on the 4th gen.

I'm glad that GM never put SS on the thirdgen because they never did anything performance wise to deserve it. IROC & Z28 fit the bill of the package they created for those cars and the 1LE's were a perfect creation for what they were designed for. I think 1LE's should have got at least a badge in it somewhere.

Mine is an RS. And I'll proudly tell everyone. I may fill in the side emblems, since I'm smoothing the rear bumper, putting flush mount door handles, and filling the antenna and front nose emblem. But RS will always reside on the dash, even if I swap to a 4th gen interior, it will still have RS designation SOMEWHERE.
I'll still go cruisin' with a guy I know who has SS on his. It's a nice car, just not what I'd have done.

Besides when I'm getting ready to run somebody I try not to disclose much about mine. I hope they think of it as "just an RS". Makes my victory that much sweeter to see a puzzled look on their face!
I guess I'm kinda old school....."Run what ya brung and hope ya brung enough" as many of street racers has said.

Knyghtmare

All this bitching about emblems. What about you guys with the 91-92 gfx when your car is infact... NOT a 91-92 Camaro? You dont think thats the same thing and putting SS on your car? Its all about looks. Give it a rest with the BS trying to justify why you should or shouldnt put other emblems (e.g. SS) on your car. Do what you want. DO what makes you happy, and do what makes it original.

Christ I have an LS1 but the VIN says I dont. You guys dont care about that. Most of you here would kill for the motor I have. **** the VIN do what you want.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Are 1987 Z28's and 1992 Z28's still Z28s? Updating GFX doesn't make the car a FAKE Z28.

Knyghtmare

Nope... Makes it look like a FAKE '92 Z28.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

GFX don't define a car. However, badges do. I know, I know, it's just a little plastic. Then how come a numbers matching car is such a big deal. How come a stripped down bare frame of a 67 Z28 sells for around $5000, yet a 6 cylinder 67 Camaro can be in decent runnig shape an sometimes not get that kind of selling price?

.....it's because to "most" of us, those castings numbers, and VIN # are VERY important. That doesn't mean they're a big deal to everyone, and I'm all for doing what you want, but like I've said, don't come here looking for approval. TPIROC didn't ask for approval, he just did it.

91Zman

They do for what the year of the car is.

92droptop

I don't know which is worse, somebody doing nothing to their import and sticking a type R sticker on it, or one of us dropping a crate engine in an RS and calling it an RS, because it is no longer a #'s matching RS (Actually, we all know which one is way worse).

IMHO, rebadging your car is about having pride in what came from the factory, but also wanting to tell people that your car most definately IS NOT what came from the factory. That's why i think the SS badge is so perfect for thirdgens. Because to anyone that knows, it is a sign that this isn't your run of the mill 3rd gen camaro. And it doesn't necessarily have to be an SS badging. There's a camaro around here that is running around with a ZR28 badge on it. It's just his way of showing people that he's put time and money into his car and it shouldn't be mistaken for what came from the factory. If you want your car to be a so called sleeper, thats cool too.

91Zman

Well the RS by itself was always just an appearance package,save for the B4Cs,so adding a crate engine doesn't matter.Its' still an RS.

tpiroc

:werd:

AutoX86Z28

ive been looking at this post and reading every post and everyone has some interesting points. subjects like this will never be resolved

BirdsofPray

I totally agree man. But personally I've enjoyed discussing the varying viewpoints here....I find it interesting that such a initially innocuous thread emerged into a full-on debate! It's especially refreshing that everyone discussed their opinions without any sort of dispute.

Aw, I gotta stop, I'm gettin' all weepy

GOFASTER

(LOL)

Okay, that is funny!

I am not taking a "little b-i-t-c-h" boy outlook on this, I just believe in what I said and I stand behind it.

If you don't like SS decals, sorry, if you do, I think that is cool.

Bottom line is, it's a 3rd gen, and I love it, that is why I think it deserves the best, and IMO, I think SS is the best.

There all 3rd gens anyway, so you just go to love them.

Again, that made me laugh so dam hard, now I can go to work with a smile all day, he he...

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

hehe

...I meant it to be funny!!!!!

GOFASTER

I love it, I am still falling out of my seat everytime I read that, you just put it so perfect.

Now, i would not smoke your L98, give that old and tried beast some credit, that is a good motor, hell I ran that thing in my last 92 Z with tons of NOS and she just kept on coming back for more, that or I was just lucky.

Again, 2 funny!:hail:

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

OH NO! No sir, she's no slouch! Still pulls like a champ at 160,000! Starts right up all the time....it's on of those "fast" ones from the factory!

...but it's no 388....even if your 388 wasn't all that.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Woah, TGO is in need of a little MuscleCar history. Some misinformation here, alot of it actually.

The SS designation didn't always mean incredible performance, or even top performance. The SS could be an appearance option on a V6 car, which is where it started, or an engine upgrade like the 454 LS6 in the Chevelle or the top 396 in the Nova. It's history with the Camaro is a little different than with other Chevys. When the Camaro first came out in later 66 there was a base model, RS appearance option, (RPO Z22) and the SS option. (RPO Z27) The SS could be either a mild and kinda slow 350 (rated 295HP) or a pretty fast 396. (rated 375HP) In the meantime, ideas were being thought up for a high performance Camaro that would be a sure winner in SCCA racing and it became the RPO Z28 option in the first month of 67. (Z/28 in the 1st Gen) And a sure winner it was as it dominated in wins and on the street. It set records and made people take this new Camaro all the more seriously. This car and its 302 would be rated at 290HP, which was complete nonsense because of what it really made. (about 400HP at about 7,000RPM) This car also got upgraded suspension, brakes, exhaust, tires, rear-axle, gears, rims, hood, intake, and looks over the SS, standard, and you could only have the M22 manual. It got the best of everything. An Auto wouldn't have worked good with the way the 302 made its power so it was left out. It lacked alot of low RPM TQ compared to the other engines as that was not it's focus, high RPM HP was. The Z28 was also the most expensive factory/regular production Camaro. It was basically a street legal racecar that could even be had with headers in the trunk to be installed right from the factory. By 70, this car was the focus of the Camaro even more as the Z28 got a 350 LT1 right from the Corvette with no changes. It also had all the other upgrades that made a Z28 the best overall performing car and you still couldn't get some of the Z28's equiptment on any other model. They were extremely sought after on the streets, SS's were everywhere and most were slow and not big blocks. In 72, the last big block Camaros were made and the SS was now associated with them, so the designation left and SS would not be seen for the rest of the entire 2nd Gen, the Third Gen, and half of the 4th Gen. Today, Z28's are the most expensive and wanted regular production Camaros in the market. The Z28 was unique/specific to the car and it stayed with it throughout the years as it always meant the best all-around Camaro performance. Although it would leave from 75-77 because they thought that any kind of real perfomance was gone from the industry, it returned a year later once again as the performer. Z28 and Camaro meant top Camaro, SS was a performance/appearance option on numerous Chevys as it is today.

In the Third Gen, a Z28 with the IROC option meant the top model from 85-90 and is still the best handling (and looking ) F-Body ever in terms of turning ability. No others have ever hit .92g's on a skidpad since or have consistently been in the very high .8's-low .9's as they were. In 87 it was even an engine option over the regular Z28 if you wanted. Then the Z28 would leave again from 88-90 but become the top car again in 91-92 since the IROC contract was not renewed. The IROC-Z28 was still a Z28 obviously and started out as an appearance and handling option that became more because of it's popularity and success. In the mid 4th Gen, SLP talked to Chevrolet about making an upgrade option for the Camaro kinda like the IROC option. In 96 they agreed and wrongly choose the name SS to represent the top all-out model, now making the Z28 look like a base V8 mid-model when in fact the 4th Gen SS was now a Z28 with less upgrades than an IROC-Z had over a Z28. It was also done for marketing, as in bringing back a name to the car when sales were quickly going away and it stayed that way even though they did this. This was a very revisionist move and not really true to the Camaro and it's history.

Did the Third Gen deserve an SS option? It really doesn't matter since it had the Z28. Also, there were no big blocks or just appearance upgrades. (same for the 4th Gens) The SS wishes it was to the Camaro what the Z28 is. These supposed undeserving Third Gen Z28's and IROC's that were/are actually some of the best all-around performing cars and most popular cars ever would also almost completely dominate these now legendary SS cars and Z28's from way back in pretty much everything with the right options, stock for stock. In terms of performance, none would touch a G92 L98 IROC-Z in a complete test in all areas of performance, and if they were to be slower in a straight line, it wouldn't be by much, a few tenths at the most. (same could go for an LB9 T5 G92 in some cases) Cars were also rated different then and power was not quite as high as advertised. They also had lousy bias ply tires, but that still doesn't make wow-type of improvements if changed to radials. (as in 1-2 sec off the times)

25THRSS

yeap, Z28 is the true top dawg. SS has fake hood louvers while Z28 had functional cowl induction. Z28 meant handling package, while ss had base suspension components. Z28 could be had with 4 wheel disk brakes. Z28 had a highly underrated 302 which could have come with a dual 4 barrel cross ram intake setup. Z28 was pretty much the performance camaro.

PyRo9862

Wow I had no idea, thanks for the info.



I still stick with my argument though, once an RS, always an RS.

GOFASTER

IROCZTWENTYGR8: Did not see a "TGO" named member in this topic so I will assume your talking about me.

That is cool, I understand that SS is not always the top dog, however, for me, it is and always will be.

I put SS on my car because in my eyes, it says "style" and "power" however it may not have always ment that (like it did with all the 4th gens), but I use it that way, no matter what anyone says, I like SS decals.

Side note, I believe that Z28 is a top dog, always loved that name also, so with that said, you know what would look good (and if someone already has it post pics) is some old 69 Z28 emblems on a 3rd gen. NICE!!

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Wasn't talking to you directly. I think a few people have put the 1st Gen emblems on their car already.

think4aminute

Wow! I wish I had read this thread about 3 years ago. Since we are talking about philosophies of badging, here's mine. (or at least this was my thinking when I did it) I had a 91 RS, however, I put in a TPI 350 with all the modifications of the Z28, minus the rear disk breaks.
When I was planning out the paint schem, I wanted something that announced I was not running stock, (I hope I don't get flamed by a sleeper) but at the same time, I didn't want people to think I was trying to be a poser.
Since I was no longer a Rally Sport, but not genetically designed to be a true Z28, I borrowed the first gen name Rally Sport/Super Sport, aka RS/SS. Seemed fitting since the RS/SS was in the same chain of command in the first gen.
Later I changed the logo to Rally SS, with SS emblems custom made at the local sign shop (I think for all three was like $25.00, plus you can have them match the color of your paint). The same shop made the stencils (thats right, the logos are painted on) for the doors, which are in the same place and the same size as the IROC-Z logos from 88-90. Notice the SS is striped exactly like the IROC-Z's.
I got reactions from the entire length of the spectrum. Alot of people liked it, alot of people hated it, but most just didn't understand (even some third gen owners thought that it was a stock model).

BirdsofPray

While interesting, the history of the SS is irrelevant to the basis of my opinion. I never asserted that the SS designation denoted the pinnacle of GM craftsmanship, or that labeling a car an SS isn't viable because it isn't worthy for one reason or another.

My simple point is that the designations only derive their meaning from what the factory originally intended them to mean. Labeling a car something it isn't simply strips your car of any meaning - at least to people who know cars.

Again, I'm not saying anything directly disparaging about anyone's car. It's of no concern of mine what anyone puts on his or her car, I merely enjoy stating my opinion.

GOFASTER

Let me first say this topic rules, I have always wanted to know everyones opinion on this topic. Good thread.

To comment on above, if what you said is true, then everything we do to our car (other than stock, any aftermarket products) means that we are in a word "derive their meaning from what the factory originally intended them to mean."??? Right?


I mean, once we change all factory stuff (i.e. motor, tranny, ground effects, wings, interior) are we not getting away from the "original factory" intenion? (my spelling sucks)

Just another point of view...

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

In the name of a good topic, and friendly conversation....I'll add yet another POV.

As I read all these posts, I had an epiphany. Maybe more of a insight into our different opinions.

Most of the people who change badges, or rename a car, seem to be under the idea that the name/badge is merely a sum of the parts. Simple logic, easy to understand whether you agree or not. You seem to think that you've created something original, so how can an original name apply? Makes sense, even though I don't necessarily agree.

On the other side, you have the people like me who think what's born an Iroc, lives as an Iroc, and dies an Iroc no matter what shape or form the car takes over it's lifetime. The thing about all that is that for us, that ever so valuable RPO is the actually a part of what we love about this hobby. I would put my Iroc up for sale TOMORROW if i found out it wasn't a true Iroc. That's the 100% honest truth. ...But I can see how some people would think that's absolutely ridiculous!

Two totally different mindsets, and it's kinda tough to see it both ways!

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

wow couldnt agree with that more...i have never thought about the whole SS being like part instead of the actually meaning makes sence...

I personally hate clones and stuff id never want to drive a fake...pretty much just like you said if u found out ur car wasnt a real iroc ud sell it the next day...i look at it the same way

so many clone 1969 Z28s...i could never drive a fake

Even if ur on the road people really wont be able to tell and it doesnt matter which i think some of you feel that way but its just me and i couldnt drive something its not

BadBowtie88

Wow, took a while to read every one of those posts...lol. Anyway, I think you should do whatever you feel man. Personally though, I'd prefer to make an IROC over an SS any day. Reasoning: Good friend bought a '92 RS when I was 17. I liked the car, it's what got me started on thirdgens. But I told myself I'd have the best. IROC-Z's made a statement. They weren't just a Z-28. I've owned two of them to date. Just having an IROC puts some pride in you. They represent so much more than even an SS. How many cars have been able to represent the greatest races and race drivers ever? How many people even remember what IROC stands for? International Race Of Champions!! There is history in it. Sure, SS has graced some spectacular GM vehicles. But they will never have people such as Dale Earnhardt(may he be turning laps in heaven) drive behind the wheel. Just my opinion of course, and putting work into your thirdgen just let's me know that our cars are still alive and kicking. Do what you feel, just letting ya know that SS doesn't mean everything. No offense to you TPIROC, you know your car rocks. Good luck, and let us know what you do with the car. I personally will not dog you in any way for what you do. At least you are doing something.

BirdsofPray

That's somewhat circular logic, as I'm not a proponent of keeping every single 3rdgen stock. I choose to keep my car stock save for the aftermarket audio system, but even so I immensely enjoy custom modifications such as nice wheels, window tint, new paint etc.

As I've stated before, however, I feel that as proud owners of our f-bodies we must draw the line somewhere. My former Camaro RS was heavily modified, but at the end of the day it was still an RS. My point isn't that an RS is something less than a Z28 or IROC - or anything of that nature. Even if I threw a 4-cylinder in my car and removed the spoiler, hood, and ground effects....it would still be a Z28.

Truly, in my eyes every single Camaro is bloody awesome. I've said what I wanted to say and my opinion will never change.

But, for the record, let me state that you all have gorgeous cars no matter what you choose to label them as!

GOFASTER

You know, everyone has good points on this topic. After reading all this over the past few days I am now thinking about just putting my own ideas on my car (i.e., just "camaro" or something like that) and be nutral. No RS, SS or Z28.

On the other hand, I have thought about keeping RS (since my car is an RS), but using the old 69 RS badging, the lower case rs style. Or the rally-sport (all lower case) badging used around the same era.

I like all the ideas, you all got me thinking about keeping RS, but I may not, I may just keep SS, but if I do, I am making it look good!

think4aminute

I think this is the nicest camaro I have ever seen. And I think it looks great with the SS theme.
:hail: :hail: http://www.quarter-mile.net/images/IROC/ :hail::hail:

GOFASTER

Yes, and look at the eye sockets, not black, I like!!!

GOFASTER

I wish I could afford a nice twin turbo set up, dam, just think of the horse power..............

I like the color, the set up, the wheels, everything.

Can you order a carbon fiber dash kit for 3rd gen's like that, or fab it????

pasky

Wahahaha, I knew my gut instincts were right. I guess by putting SS badges on your Z28 your downgrading it lol. I guess thats what happens when you forget history and you listen to the hype. Anyways, I have and always will see Z28 as being the top package, it just looks and sounds better than SS.

EDIT: Also wanted to add that its your car do what you want obviously, but I don't agree with doing it.

yesfan2000

A friend of mine has an '84 Berlinetta (I'm not positive on the year). He added all the ground effects from an '85 z28. Including the badging and '85 style IROC rims. He still has the digital dash that came stock on his car. I admire his car because of all the work he's done to it, and he is definately a third gen f-body fanatic like most of us. However, I avoid the whole badging issue when discussing his car. It's almost the same color as my z28, but I know that it's a Berly.

A co-worker recently purchased a 1972 Chevelle Malibu off ebay. Just about every Chevelle on ebay is an SS clone. He immediately started buying SS badges for the front and rear bumpers and front fenders. He's going to remove the Malibu and 350 badges that now reside on the front fenders. He also has a cowl induction hood on order. He's taken the car to a painter and is going to have stripes put on the car. I made some performance suggestions to him and he's just interested in the appearance issue.

Of course, both of these Chevy fans can do whatever they want with their cars. I just can't help feeling that if they were so enamoured with a certain model, then why didn't they just buy the vehicle they wanted. I'd like to think that money was a deciding factor, but neither of these guys is hurting for cash. And the money they spent "upgrading" would more than have made up the difference. I can't wait to see a Camaro with Dodge Viper badging. Now, I can understand where money might come into play there. How about Shelby Cobra badging. Oh, the humanity!!

Just a point of fact pertaining to the history of the Camaro, in 1974 the z28 was still the top performance Camaro. In 1975 and 1976 the Type LT was the top performer. In 1977 the z28 was reintroduced into the Camaro lineup. I'm not positive that was stated before, unless I read it wrong.

dave

yesfan2000

Oops, double post.

dave

Z28guy83

the ss first gen just an upgraded rs ?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

some pretty good points IROCZTWENTYGR8. always liked the looks of the ss models particularly in the 4thgens but on the street it wasn't anything to be concerned over the z28...

if i were to rebadge a car i'd definately come up with something new.

GOFASTER

Yes, I believe so, which in my case would back up my ideas.

westman

Dude, its YOUR car, not anyone elses. Do what will make you happy and **** everyone else.

GOFASTER

this is what I will use now. I like it

PyRo9862

I'm going to put spinners on my car

GOFASTER

he he