1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

If you want to make a 7,500 - 8,000 rpm motor blown small block that makes 700 - 800 HP, all you have to do is build a forged internal 406 ci with 18 degree heads and solid roller cam. Then use a victor jr. efi intake and attach you charger. Or, if you want to stay TPI, have hogan's build you a sheet metal tpi intake for 18* heads. and hook up the blower.

Now THAT would be a radical motor!

Besides, you DONT want to spin a Hyd. Roller cam to 8,000 !

Just my .02 .............

CrazyHawaiian

The spoiler in the pictures is the stock 91-92 Z28 highrise wing. Not too sure what it would look like on a Trans Am, but I bet if you search for it you will find someone who has tried.

Yes 8,000 rpm is a little high for the street, but thats exactly why I want to do it. Remember now, I'm not into drag racing or light to light racing. I wanna show up exotics, highly modded imports, and bikes on the freeway. I want people to drop their jaw when I drop the hammer. It is true that my powerband will be very high, meaning performance in the lower RPM's will suffer, but like I said earlier this is all relative. I never plan to do any racing at low RPM's so it dosnt matter how much power I'm making. Most of the time I will drive around at low RPM's off boost saving gas. When I want to race it all begins at 60mph and the higher powerband will make the car faster on the top end. The 6 speed with properly selected gearing and also the properly selected final gear will be matched up with my powerband (and power adder). I think this will be a great top end setup. I thought about running 18 degree heads (or SB2's) and it would actually be OK since I'm not worried about any racing class limitations of any sort, but I decided to stick with 23 degree heads because of the many EFI intake choices. Right now the choices I'm looking at are (in current order of likelyhood) the Holley Stealthram, TPIS MiniRam, or a modified LT1 intake. I'd actually prefer the MiniRam, but the Stealthram is such a great value I want to give it a try. For the block and heads I've decided on the World Products 400 Motown block and Motown 220 Aluminum heads. Have not decided on the internals yet. I can still choose between 327, 350, and 400 crank, but like I already said I'm going for big bore, small stroke to make it easier on my engine at higher RPM's. I do know I want the motor to be low compression with foarged internals (boost friendly). Same thing with the cam and valvetrain, have not decided what specific stuff to use, but a solid roller is definate. ECM will be a 749 Sy/Ty with $58 code custom tune. Fuel system will be a sumped tank, Aeromotive A1000 pump (700hp max), and steel lines the length of the car to the fuel rail. Because the 749 ECM has a second injector driver, I have quite a few injector choices (low or high), but am undecided on what exact injectors to use at the moment. Manifolds are the old Gale Banks TT manifolds but jet coated and set to mate with T04E turbo's and two 2.5" downpipes. The injectors and turbo's will have to match whatever I decide to do with the internals (all depends on cfm), so prolly wont choose those items until the engine itself is complete. I plan to push 14.5 psi intercooled. This is a motor I plan to build over a long period of time in my spare bedroom. The appearance mods in this thread will happen long before this motor is complete. But some of the stuff that I will use on this next motor will also be used on my current L98. The fuel system, the intake (not injectors), and the ECM swap will all be done and in use by my L98 long before this next motor is complete. I'm gonna use the L98 and S-trim supercharger to practice my tuning and hopefully I'll be real good by the time this next motor is complete.

JimmyG-91Z

Wow, this is a really good thread, I should read the Motor Swap and FI boards more often.

I've understood everything you've all been talking about except for one things. The term square and over-square (Ok so it's 2 things). I've only first heard this term like a week ago. Is it just that the bore size and stroke size are the same dimensions (or close to the same)? If not could someone please explain this to me?

Well back to apperence, on the door handles, I still think that 4th gen door handles would match a 3rd gen better then the C5/every other GM vehicle door handles. http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pi...maro_zl1-1.jpg This pic shows it off quite well. and witrh you going with 4th gen interior panels, it would probably be an easier swap with the lock rods and other nesessary parts.

I also say to keep the stock side markers, just go clear the round ones don't match the 3rd gens lines.

After seeing the second drawing, the BMW lights don't seem that bad, but lie I said earlier I juut don't like the idea of having so many round things on a square car. Probaby have to see them in real life to know for sure. And the Tails I'm on the fence with.

And keep the highrise, everything else is cool!

And trying to take down Busa's and Italians, thats just bad ***. I would love to see a thirdgen beat one of them in a freeway run.

Whatever way you taek as long as you enjoy your car it's all that really matters.

JimmyG

MrDude_1

that sounds great.... and everything... even if it is destroked, i know id love it... but i still want you to reconsider keeping the stock stroke...


can you explain WHY you want 8k exactly...? the sound?

because if you want to save gas at low RPM, dont care about the launch and want to be perfect in the powerband on the hwy, it sounds like you just need to put a diffrent rear gear in and it would be perfect for you...

if you want to beat the exotics at their own game, you have to use every advantage you can... they sure are with theirs... every aspect of their motor is DESIGNED with high RPM in mind.. yours isnt... yours is DESIGNED for a lower powerband, and just as high, if not higer power output.... your plan will lower your power output.... sure it will put less stress on the motor at 8k, but if 8k is your redline(and not your shift point), and you're shifting around 7600 or so, your motor is perfectly fine with the full 3.75" stroke. you're going to be using top notch rotating assemblys anyway, go for it.. it'll hold together just as well...
i guess what im saying is, what are you trying to gain... because i only see loss here....
not to mention, 400stroke rotating assmeblys are a dime a dozen and are everywhere... racers love em..... a shorter stroke could cost more cash.... (or be the same depending where you buy)

i mean, i understand money might not be a issue with this (sure as heck doesnt sound like it LMAO) but damn.... even if you're a high RPM turbo motor, you can gain from the stroke... theres no loss using the full stroke there...


im jsut not following your logic... could ya explain your reason why?

19doug90

I think its more hes trying to mimic what the cars hes racing against are doing. Id like to know why the exotics run engines similar to things like that and you said that their engines are designed to run in that powerband. Well what would hawaiian have to do to design an engine that would run in that powerband?

JeremyNYR

iTrader: (2)

- JimmyG-91Z

I agree 100%. The spoiler looks great and so do the tail lights. But I really don't understand the appeal of the round door handles. Our cars are very angular and rounding out parts here and there just makes everything look mis-matched. I actually like that they're angular for aestetic reasons and because they're much easier to work with and do mods that fit like using Monte Carlo headlights and stuff. On a rounder car you'd have to go totally custom to make something look like it belonged.

CrazyHawaiian

Square means the bore diameter and the length of the stroke are the same. Under square (or long stroke) means the length of the piston stroke is greater than the diameter of the bore of the cylinder. Long stroke engines (stroker motors) are known to produce higher low-end torque at the cost of increased piston speeds which affects the ability to maintain higher RPM's by putting more stress on the reciprocating assembly. Over square (or short stroke) is when the length of the stroke is shorter than the diameter of the cylinder bore. Short stroke engines theoretically improve the ability to maintain high RPM's because less stress is put on the reciprocating assembly (slower piston speed) but at the loss of low-end torque.

I picked 8,000 RPM because its straight up crazy. Have you ever been in a car that pulled to 8,000 RPM or more? Its nutz man. I've been in a few (but only one was a SBC) and I think its way more fun than having alot of torque and light to light racing. I'm in a club full of top end monsters (exotics, highly boosted imports, and bunch of Z06's) and I want to trip them all out with a high rev boosted Gen 1 SBC. Right now I can hang with them off the line, but on the freeway they walk me pretty bad. The closest ones I can hang with are the Z06's, and even those pull. I want to start pulling people on the freeway, and when other cars hit redline, I want to keep pulling. The sound is part of it too. Around 7,500 RPM a SBC starts to sound really crazy (like a scream?). 8,000 RPM is a goal. I'm not saying its gonna happen, but its a good goal.

Mr. Dude, you got some really good points. While it may be true that these things happen theoretically, how much of an advantage I'll see in my build is questionable. The bore / stroke ratio is what really matters. And since we're working with parts off the shelf, we have limitations on how far we can take the bore or stroke. All true, but that does not mean the concept of big bore / small stroke is worthless for anyone with a SBC. These concepts can still be applied to a SBC, even while working with off the shelf parts. Even if the change is minimal, it can still help. It was well known that the 302 and 327 could maintain higher RPM's than the square or under square engines. The handoff here is how much power potential are you giving up versus how much strain are you taking off the motor. Honestly I cant say I know the answer to either question. My reasoning is that because I am using forced induction, the loss of cubic inches is not as important as the added strain on the engine. Either way, I will be able to make the power I want. I'm not racing against other 400 blocks in some kind of class, so the loss of 23 cubic inches isn't going to kill me. Going with a big bore / small stroke will take some stress off the reciprocating assembly and make it easier on the engine. So yes its true that I'm giving up some potential for power. But in all honesty it does not matter to me because my power output will be dependant on how much boost I'm pushing. Instead of focusing on maximum power output, I'm focusing on the desired powerband and making it 'easier' on the engine. If giving up some cubes will make the engine last longer, then I will gladly trade it for more boost. Does that make sense?

I guess what it really comes down to is ... different strokes for different folks.

bnoon

Destroking a 400 isn't theory... hasn't been for 20 years. Proven on circle tracks all across the nation since at least the early 70's. Mostly used for 1/2 mile to 3/4 mile tracks with long straights where a detroked 400 can pull from corner to corner without shifting. Regular 350's and 400's must shift, which puts extra strain on the engine and drivetrain.

A "normal" crank will handle itself at 8K with a good balance, knife edge, good balancer, and good tri-metal bearings. The slown down change in direction raises the RPM limit in the rotating assembly.

He's not building the ultimate street engine here, he's going for ultra high RPM and a wide power band. He's the "Crazy Hawiian" for crying out loud!!!

MrDude_1

either add a couple cylinders, or make his car weigh as light as a 'busa.. lol

ive been in a couple that can.. (NONE were SBCs) and yes i love that scream they make.... wouldnt mind hearin yours once its done lol... most things i drive that go that high are motorcycles though...
and yea, that is straight up crazy.. lol


call me greedy, but id like to take em off the line and keep pulling far far away. :lala:


hehe, i really want to hear this.... and that scream usualy is the engines way of saying "AAAHHH im gonna die!"

now that i think about it, we did floor a carbed 305 till it blew... for all i know, it did hit 8k... lmao... sure sounded cool though.


i think this is where we're having a disagreement.. we both think its cool and all, but you see the ratio as what matters, i see the power output as what matters... im keeping in mind that yes, this is a street motor, but still, if you're spending that much on the bottom end, the same stuff to run reliably at 350s stroke can run at 400s stroke with the same lifespan.

their diff in stroke was a bit more... lol.. but yea, they reved better.. still, if you're worried about straining the motor, and its lifespan, im going to stick with saying spin it slower..... i dont know why you think you need high RPMs for high speed racing, but you dont... the only reason the smaller engined cars do it is to make up for their size and lack of airflow over time.... ah well..
its not like it still wont be a fun car your way lol


if you're worried about engine life... you need to spin it slower to lower engine stresses... that doesnt mean less power... just less RPM... besides on a motor like the SBC 99% of the people out there, including gearheads, cant tell the diff in RPM by ear of a car at 6300 and 7200..... i donno if the sound changes alot or anything when it hits closer to 8k, but i know that even 7k sounds impressive... and will put ALOT less stress on the motor (even destroked)



yup

25THRSS

I dunno if I've ever heard a sbc at 8,000 rpm, but i've heard them at 9,000 plus quite a few times. All you gotta do is take a trip to your local nascar track. Yeah, they sound pretty bad ***. I still don't understand why you would destroke it though. Nascar limits the engines to 358 cubes, and I'm sure if they could have more cubic inches in the form of more stroke they would gladly take it, but oh well. BTW, crazy, I think you have the perfect drop on your car.

MrDude_1

thoes are SB2s... but yea, same bottom end.... actually he could put SB2 components in his car... but i donno what bore/stroke they run.... *shrug*


and since you mentioned that... yea, i have heard em spinning that fast... just didnt think of it.. lol

19doug90

id say a good question is how much boost do you actually plan on running? If the amount of boost with a destroked engine is only going to make 500 hp then id lower your rpm band down to at the highest 7000 and stroke the hell out of it. Then again if with the destroked engine you think youre going to be making around 800 hp thats more then youre ever going to be able to use on the street so that would be more then enough.

Every time i hear a discussion where people are talking about how bigger is better im reminded of my buddies dad who has a C4 vette with a V6 in it (yeah you heard me a V6) and the thing runs consisten 9.7's at the track.

With enough boost and a destroked engine you should be able to make as much power as youd like.

Genesis98

I would just like to reply with, That's sick!

How much HP and torque is he grabbing from that thing?:hail:

19doug90

no idea dont think hes ever had it dynod id guess between 800-1000. The best part is its 100% street legal, it passes smog, and a saftey inspection (no **** its got a 6 point chrome moly cage) and the 9.7's are on ET streets and while many cops would pull you over for having em on its still legal. So theoretically he could pull up beside you at a stop light and if you tried to race him (haha the car looks so stock too) he could run a 9 second race on ya. Wouldnt that be fun for going out on a friday night and takeing peoples money?

CrazyHawaiian

Yeah I know I dont need to spin that high to go fast on the top end, but I just think its more fun. This definately isnt something I need, its something I want. And since I'm boosting, I dont consider the loss of 23ci to be more important than generating even more stress on an engine that I plan to push to its limits. I've set the goal, now I need to reach it. I'm planning to push 1 bar of boost (14.5psi) intercooled. This is a limit of the 2 bar map sensor that is usually used with the 749 ECM. I'd say at this point that will be enough boost. But always keeping my options open, you can upgrade to a 3 bar map sensor, which means the ECM would be able to account for 2 bar boost (28psi), but you have to use a software hack to tune, which causes resolution loss over the tuning tables (less accurate at higher boost). And then I'd have to run way high octane gas. So regardless of the power output of the 377 versus the power out put of a 400, I will still be able to get the ammount of power I want by running x ammount of boost. Since the motor will be low compression (8:1 to 8.5:1) these types of figures are not completely impossible, though definately pushing the limits. Its safe to say that this motor will be crazy, so it should be a good match for for me

EDIT: forgot to mention I will be using an electronic boost controller, so the car will normally be run at low boost on the street. Just gonna boost higher when I race ...

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

did that corvette by chance make it to last years (2003) NMCA finals with the vette vs. viper shootout...it think i remember seeing it. i do remember seeing a turbo v6 vette that was black of that body style, but i don't know if that was the same car. none the less, turbo v6's don't play in ANYTHING that they are put in....:hail: :hail: :hail: the might turbo 6.

19doug90

99% sure he did he usually races other vettes and vipers. It's a rediculous car.

camarosource

iTrader: (1)

pic doesn't work.

91Bird305

I didn't know your car was twin turbocharged or is this just a concept your working on?

CrazyHawaiian

Its not TT yet, I'm still gathering all the parts for the TT setup. So far I only have the manifolds (Banks manifolds). So in all honesty, it will be a while before this becomes a reality. The current motor is a pretty much stock L98 w/ a Vortech S-Trim blower. My plan is to complete the exhaust, swap in a blower cam, 749 ECM swap, and see how far I can get with the stock L98 heads. We'll see how long the motor lasts ....

In the meantime, I will be building the 377/HSR motor for the TT setup. My eventual plan is to remove the blower setup when the L98 blows, and move it over to my drift car (89 RS also with a L98). Then I'm gonna swap the (hopefully) completed 377 TT setup into the 91 Z and start tuning ...

WishIHadAZ

IMO I think all of that is great except for one thing; the side mirrors. I don't get the trend when it comes to that style of mirror. I just think they look plain hideous. Leave the stock style mirrors seriously, so much better. Other than that I think it could look amazing.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I haven't read the whole post, just about halfway through and wanted to give my opinion before I had to leave. Why not mount those "audi" sidemarkers down in the gfx emblem hole or something? find one a little bit bigger and it'd fit in perfectly. Don't know if anyones mentioned it or not though.

stevedave454

well here goes my two cents...

it seems like your theme with the body mods is to give it a smooth sleek look (and i love it) ... with the exception of the side markers and mirrors, they seem to stand out and dont quite fit IMO. i would shave the side markers all together... if for some reason you cant shave em (local laws) i would try to get some covers you can paint body color.... i have seen several vehicles with black out type covers that you can paint the body color, but the light still shines through.. special paint i guess.. either way i would try to make em as least noticeable as possible, and for the mirrors i agree with either stock, or the ones that fit in the corner of the glass, and paint them body color aswell. i love the tail lights, the spoiler could maybe be 3.5-4 inches tall, but whatever, and the headlights, as long as they turn out as good as they are in the pics i love em.

when it comes to the motor go destroked!!! no offense to these guys, but dont listen to em! first of all cubic inches arent everything, especially in boosted applications. if GM can make a 1000 HP ecotec 4 cyl that runs 7's you can reach your goals without a 406. also check out www.ls1motorsports.com they got their LS1 346 (100% stock) added a T-76 turbo, alcohol injection, and valvesprings - got 775 RWHP and 865 RWTQ... and i dont understand why all these people think a long stroke motor can spin just as fast as a short one... well it can, but it'll break easier/faster... so it cant do it reliably... i look at it like this... the turbos arent gonna spool till about 3000 - 3500 RPMS reguardless of stroke/CID and with a stroker motor your gonna be limited to about 6000 - 6500 RPMS, a 2500-3000 RPM powerband isn't gonna do you much good in a car built for highway racing, and also look at bikes... crotch rockets use very short stroke, big bore motors and can rev to 13k+ - someone made a comment about the bigger bores needing two plugs to get a good flame front and all that... its a 400 bore... it'll be the same as a 406!!! anyways im rambling, IMO i would go with a 352 (327 crank) when its TT you wont notice the lack of the 50 inches at all, but you will enjoy the extra RPMs

Abaddon_fallen1

HOw's about contacting MuSCLE Motorsports in North Carolina. They deal in used NASCAR parts and you'd probably be able to get a genne SB2 small block. The price might be high, but if it's balanced and blueprinted right it could even have a 10,000 rpm potential!

CrazyHawaiian

Thanks for the info guys! I've thought about the SB2 stuff, but if I went that route (or 18 degree heads) I'd have to run carb (pls correct me if I'm wrong). I really want to stay EFI, so I think I'm stuck with 23 degree heads. I've been staring at my manifolds and re-thinking this project. I have a feeling I'm gonna go with the Miniram over the Stealthram because the runner length in the Miniram is better suited to high RPM use. But the damn thing costs twice as much. I'm also thinking of going with the 327 crank instead of the 350 crank. You're probably right that I wouldnt notice the difference on boost, and it would make the RPM's that much easier. I've been doing alot of reading on the turbo's I want to use. I still haven't matched the parts up by flow, but the turbo's I'm thinking of getting can support 600hp each at 22psi. So if I run both at 14.5psi (limit of the 749 ECM), I should be in the 600-700hp range. The limit of my fuel system is 700hp, so that should be a good match for me. Just need to determine what engine internals / parts I'm gonna use and figgure out the flow. I've had my eye on the World Products Motown Block and 220 Heads, but I dunno if thats overkill for what I want to do (since I'm de-stroking, not stroking).

As soon as I get the C5 front brake conversion parts, I'm gonna be re-doing my suspension and brakes. Hopefully another 2 weeks. I've been saving up a stash of parts for a while hehe. New 700# linear rate front springs (with the weight jacks), Belltech drop spingles, Hunter Motorsports strut mounts, Tokiko Illuminas front and rear, C5 front brakes, LS1 rear brakes, Steel lines and Willwood proportioning valve. Then once I get all that taken care of I can move on to my exhaust, and then my horrid interior. Doing the interior will take me at least 2 months (rewiring the entire car while installing 4th gen stuff). While the car is down I plan to take care of the fuel system and ECM. Cant wait to ditch that Vortech FMU and secondary pump crap. So another 4-5 months and the car will be ready for those bodymods ... I'm getting excited!!

Droptop_Z

I was thinking about putting a intercooler in place of the grill, my only question was would it look ricy?

scottland

There is so much mis-information in this post its not even funny.

prove it..... there are more people than you know running long stroke engines making 800+ rwhp that don't have reliabilty issues. Monty is running a 427 SBC (which has a monster long stroke(4") and AFAIK, he hasn't had any problems with this 1200HP beast.)

just because you think it won't last as long doesn't mean that won't. have you ever heard of reliabilty problems? know anyone with reliabilty problems?

wrong. depending on the size of the turbo, and the A/R of the turbine housing, you could have turbo spool up at whatever RPM you want.

have any facts to back that one up?

you can't compare a 2-stroke engine to a 4-stroke engine,
it's like comparing a baseball a leather couch.

you will plenty notice the lack of cubic inchs with the lack of cubic horsepower. The more cubic inchs are going to allow the same power levels at LESS boost. to get the same power level from the smaller engine, your going to have to run MORE boost. So lets say his engine can support 14psig w/o detonation, at 14psi, the bigger engine will make more power than the smaller engine, its plain and simple. And bore and stroke have about the LEAST improtance to the engines powerband. His valve train and cylinder heads are going to decide that.

Sorry for cluttering up a Apperance power with so much Tech, but i wanted to clear up a lot of BS.


As far as 18* heads and having to run carb,

not true, you could easily run 18* heads and keep efi, it would have to be custum though. Monty is running 18* heads on this motor, and its fuel injected, i believe his intake manifold was made by Hogan's. Also, you could buy a Carb intake to fit the heads, buy a throttle body elbow, or a 4-barrel throttle body, and have someone weld in injector bungs into the intake runners, viola! EFI.

But all that is going to be $$$$.

either way, the car looks pretty sweet.

CrazyHawaiian

But the question shouldn't be which will make more power. The question should be, which one is better suited for high RPM applications? Everyone here agree's that the bigger displacement motor will make more power. But the debate is about which type of motor (de-stroked or stroked) is better for high revving applications. I know neither bore nor stroke directly determine the powerband of the engine, but they do affect the ammount of stress on the internals. If I was going for max power output, I would definately go with a stroked motor. But I'm more interested in having a specific powerband. My power output will be determined by the ammount of boost, not the engine displacement. So displacement is not really that important to me because I can make up any power loss by upping the boost. I know it might seem stupid or crazy, but thats the type of setup I'm looking to build (for my own pleasure). So if you wanna compare stuff, we should be comparing the powerbands of different setups, not the max power output of different setups.

Thanks for the info on the 18 degree heads and EFI intakes. I'll definately look into this some more ... SB2 motor with a Miniram??? Sounds nutz ...