IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

I'm pretty much starting over from scratch again, I'm selling my long block minus the HSR and roller rockers. I'm already in the market for a 350 roller motor. After I get the floor done on the car I'll be getting a set of AFR 1040's. I'm looking at COMP's XE-276HR. The biggest concern I have about cams is I've been playing around with a DCR calculator and it seems even with a bigger roller I'd have to keep the static around 9:5 is this really the case. I've played around with a bunch of different rollers with same results, what am I missing? I'd like to be in the range of 450fwhp.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Try adding one with more overall off the seat time but similar at .050 numbers, i.e. how about a 286/294 adv, 226/234 at .050, lift is .568 on both. We could do it on any lobe sep, what are you controlling it with?

If you haven't guessed I do custom cams, happy to help.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Which DCR calc you using?

My 12:1 ( measured) engine is at 8.8 DCR with a 234 /242 cam
Is pass the upper recommended limit for DCR on 91 ( 7.5 - 8.5 DCR ) but on 93 it has no knock >7K

skinny z

[QUOTE=IrocZ30589;5160460] I'm looking at COMP's XE-276HR.QUOTE]

I'm currently using that cam and with 10:1 SCR. My DCR is at 8:1. That's installed straight up. I am however using 1.6 ratio rockers which add some duration to the mix so my DCR is lower still.

Wow. That's quite the profile. I haven't seen anything like that even in Comps XFI lobe index. Something I may be interested in myself.

Impressive. Do you think that the limits for DCR can be stretched the typical point or so with aluminum heads as is the accepted case with the SCR?
I run iron heads and have had as much as 8.3:1 DCR but would like to explore the option of more compression still.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

DCR isnt the end all say all of pump gas compatibility...its a good start but not necessarily the only thing. Removing some heat from the chamber helps. The better designed chambers will be less detonation prone and colder spark plugs help too. Even slightly richer mixtures can help keep things cool enough and not have detonation.

276hr should beable to run much more than 9.5 to 1 static with aluminum. That cam can be run at 10-10.5 to 1 without issue and likely higher if its the 110 lsa version

Sounds like the Advanced Induction cam, 226/234 .566 110 lsa. Very nice cam for shorter runner intake cars. I dont know what lobes those cams use, or if they are their own design, but anything in that range would be a strong cam.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

[quote=skinny z;5160963]Comp makes a lot of great stuff, and they're a good cam and components company. But they're a better marketing company. Remember they're the same ones that told everyone that the 4-7 swap was worth a bunch of hp, was it? No, they just made the opportunity to sell the same customer another cam.

I do Erson stuff, been around since the 60's. They offer some excellent lobe profiles, both flat tappet and roller, that will make competitive hp/tq numbers while being a bit easier on the valvetrain.

Thanks

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

It's an Erson, and thanks, I think so too.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Guy I seen around on LT1 forums had a 383 with a baby cam in it, it was an Erson based grind done by Joe Overton... 226/234 on a 111lsa, similar .560's lift i believe and that car ran 11.2's at 121mph. Stuff works

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Wow, didnt expect so many responses. Heres the calculator I'm using: http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

efiguy - I plan on using EBL flash to control everything, that cam does seem pretty interesting. Does Erson have a website?

About 10:5:1 is the ballpark I planned to be in but when I plugged that into the DCR with a few different roller I ended up in low 9's.

What can I expect out of this thing? 355 10:5ish, HSR, AFR 1040's and a cam like the Erson grind mentioned? Exhaust is Hooker 2055's through a Magnaflow cat-back, no cat.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

360whp isnt out of the question, likely closer to 375-380whp. Cam has enough duration and lift to make power with HSR and 1040 afr's. Exhaust will restrict it some, so I figure 10-15whp lost, around 350-360whp will be good.

skinny z

[QUOTE=efiguy;5160523]...286/294 adv, 226/234 at .050, lift is .568 on both. QUOTE]

Do you have a catalog cut for that grind?
I'm moving away from my XR276HR into something with less duration at .050" (230/236) but still get me to the .570" lift mark with 1.6 rr.
Looking at 108 LSA with less than 60 degrees of overlap which forces me to shorten the cam timing.
Not to hikjack a thread but this could be what I'm looking for.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Will the headers or cat-back be more of a restriction? Im not set on keeping this set up, but I do love the sound of the magnaflow.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

276 is 224/230 correct? Less duration is not 230/236 Thats going with more.

I've run comp magnum high lift lobes on my 383 and have them on my new 401 turbo grind. They have a 230deg lobe that will give you .598-.600 with 1.6 rocker. Worked well on my car. They have a 224 that gets .560, alittle easier to control than the xfi version.

If you really want to get nasty with lift, they have xe high lift versions, 224 lobe with .605" with 1.6 rocker. 214 lobe with .565" lift! That stuff is gonna be hard on springs!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Headers... the ports wont cover the AFR exhaust ports 100% and will have abit of restriction there. Plus the 2055's have like 2" collectors. Mine measured 1.9" across! Crappy ball flange collectors. You can cut it open to 2.25 and still seal. I'd do that for sure. You need the flow.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

If that's the case ill probably just find a set of good long tubes with true 3" collectors and figure out a y to hook them into the magnaflow, my car is stock height so I have a little bit of clearance to work with.

Do you think with good headers and little bit more cam and compression I could see 400 at the wheels providing a good tune?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

400 typically requires abit more cam, especially if pushing through an automatic. Port the stealth ram abit and you can get there.

Most guys using 280XFI cam and AFR 1040's with minirams or stealth rams are near 400whp.

You can get close tho with a milder cam but the 280 in a 350 motor isnt too bad on driveability. My buddy uses it just fine and I didnt have much issue tuning that setup. Granted his motor was low compression and had so-so heads that arent as good as the new AFR 1040's. He would have been 350-360whp but laid down 330whp at 5650rpm before valvefloating horribly. No float, it be worth another 20-30whp and 500 rpm+.

Thats the key when using those fairly aggressive cams and turning 6000+ rpm. You need strong stiff springs. AFR 1040's have an upgrade spring, the 8019 which have a much better chance at supporting those rpm ranges with those cam lobes.

For headers check out Dyno Don's 1 3/4" shorties. They cover the AFR exhaust port and make good power with a 2.75" collector/ypipe combination. I'd rather see 3.5" catback at that power level tho but thats gonna be custom or go mufflex which aint that cheap.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Let's not get too caught up in lift.
I have other lobes in that duration range that would work, i.e. the ones I gave have .355 lobe lift. I have .365 lift lobe that is a bit faster/higher. For instance we could do a 284/294 adv, 226/234 @ .050 with .584/.568 lift at the valve with 1.6 rockers.
But just because a lobe lift is higher doesn't mean it spends as much time there as one with a bit lower lift. It's possible it just kisses that lift then starts it's way back down. Something to think about.
And normally I use a slightly slower lobe on the exhaust side, apples to apples it will typically build a bit more torque that way.
With the EBL we can put it on a 113 or even a 114 if you like, you're input will certainly be considered.

By the way the Erson website is
www.pbm-erson.com. Not sure if this grind will be there but I'll try to get you a grind number nonetheless.

Thanks

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can get the EFI happy with tighter if you want. I ran 109 lsa in my car no real issues once you have heated o2 sensor and set up the parameters right.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I made 409whp with my setup in the sig.

skinny z

Actually, that would be a typo on my part. I'm looking for less than 224/230. Don't know where the 230/236 came from other than I've been buried in catalogs and in engine simulation programs for the last month.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I have a couple of high lift lobes that would make a nice combo,
how about something like a 219/226 at .050 with .560/.568 lift with 1.6 rockers.

Just an FYI. Thanks

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

My las set-up was on a 112lsa no problems, I'm up for whatever works the best. I just dont know what that is yet lol.

Now as far as springs if I ran something like the 280XFI would I be better off switching out AFR's springs for some beehive's? This last set-up I was running pulled to 6,000 fairly easy on a so so tune and that was just a 268/280 flat tappet with 170cc heads and HSR so I know this new set up will exceed that. If go that way I'll have to get rid of my rockers for some 1.6's.

Does anyone know how the TF 23*'s stack up against AFR's cause granted Vincents through a stick he's got some nice number's I would like to see myself.

Also at this power level what am I going to need for injectors? 28-30#

I'm sure I'll think of more.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Hope this helps.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you go AFR's ask for their 8019 springs. 155lbs seat, 412 open. I ran these springs but shimmed slightly to 165-170lbs seat pressure, and turned 7000 rpm with .600"+ lift no problem.
I've personally seen the 280xfi float with 120lb seat/320lb open springs and that was at 5700 rpms, far from its operating range of 6500rpm. Lots of power lost and its a danger to the motor.
Some of the better beehives like PAC springs can work but pointless to upgrade when AFR has a good spring available. I've seen comp 26918 beehives float a 268xfi cam by 5800 or so as well. They became weak after a while of operation and lost spring pressure. Started to float the valves. XFI stuff is pretty aggressive. LSx cams are the same way and those guys can live with hyd rollers at 7K rpms using good strong double springs like AFR 8019 or patriot extreme golds, etc.

I feel AFR's have the advantage over trickflow and many other heads for 3 reasons. 1) springs available (8019s) are better suited to the aggressive hyd rollers. 2) 8mm lightweight valves are better suited to high rpms compared to solid 11/32" valves like most sbc heads use these days. This makes it possible to control the valves on aggressive cam lobes. 3) Port design. For general under 6500 rpm useage for given motor sizes, they work well. They have a faster velocity port design which gives them higher flow numbers compared to others out there. Velocity helps build power by filling the cylinders better at lower rpms. Too much port velocity will choke a motor out at high rpms but too little it will be lazy. For higher rpm stuff there are better heads out there

Trickflows are good heads but really respond well to port work to correct the shapes and get more flow. But have seen these heads make decent power on builds.

400whp can be made with 30's. 36's would offer much more room tho

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

I've been eyeing the 1040's for a long time now, was going to slap them on my last combo but the cam would have been to small and I figure now that its all out again I might as well just swap for a roller motor.

efiguy - now that alot of the little has been worked out what exactly would you recommend me for a 355, 10:5:1, HSR, AFR 1040's with my trans/rear-end combo to see between 380-400whp? I have 1.5 rollers right now but if you suggest 1.6's with your cam thats not a problem.

I plan on picking up some 1 3/4" headers for sure be it dyno dons or some LT's.
I also planned on smoothing the top-base transition on stealth ram what else is needed, I'm sure the ports on the 195's are gonna be bigger than stealth rams but do I need to open up the whole thing? I'm pretty confident in my porting so thats no issue.

I appreciate all the input guys. I'm pretty much the only one around here who actually takes building SBC's past a performer intake, 650dp, some shorty's and a set of "double humps" with a "mild" cam. That and the closest track is over 2 hours away so I dont get to see much of the aftermarket stuff unless I buy it lol.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I opened my HSR up to the 195 ports. Its not quite 1205 gasket so make a paper template and match over it. Carry those port dimensions into the runner as far as you can go until the area starts to open up. That should be enough although you can take out a good bit of material on there.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I'd stick with the orignal choice of lobes, 284/294 adv, 226/234 at .050 with .584/.568 lift with 1.6 rockers. With 10.5:1 you'd be fine with the little extra off the seat time. And yes I would recommend the 1.6's, and I'd do it on a 111-112, installed around 108. You could do it earlier but that'll raise your DCR. And just blend the transition from the intake to the head, normally going back into the intake 1 1/2-2" is good. If it's too abrupt then you lose velocity right where the injector is, you don't want to do that.

Orr89 - I don't doubt that you had valve float with a 280xfi, they're real hard on valvetrain parts and especially the rollers. Imo you're taking risks in the wheels falling off, literally. 140 on the seat and 350-360 open will take care of most applications.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well I used LS7 lifters and knew guys turning them higher with about same spring pressure with various different cams so I felt I'd be ok. LS7's have been great so far and I'm willing to try them again but my new cam is even larger and I have abit more spring pressure... My cam was 286/230 .603 with 1.6's when the 280xfi is 280/230/ .576 I believe. The 280xfi was in my friends car which i tuned. Also ls7 lifters. Over 5700 it floated on the dyno and was inconsistant at the track. Wasnt responding to fuel changes above 5800 and I couldnt figure it out til I looked up stock spring specs on 190 heads....

I am still up in the air on switching lifters to Morels as they have a tool steel body and are better suited for this stuff. Guys are running mild solid roller springs with these lifters, 225lb seat pressure! Thats nuts for a hyd roller.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Thats another little thing I missed - Lifters Orr I see you mentioning the LS7's. Will those be good for me?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah they will be just fine. MANY guys use them. I'd try alittle softer lobe than the xfi for now if you want mileage out of those springs. EFIGUY's grind looks very nice, on a 110-111lsa it will get you close to your goal with good heads

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Ya I think that may be what I end up going with.

Efiguy- how much do the grinds usually go for?

Im supposed to be goiing to grab my new block tommorow.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Pm'd you, can't give prices here. Thanks.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Got the block today. 4 bolt main block/crank/cam/lifters/lifer spider for $80. All the internals are going to the scrap yard and I'm dropping off the block to the machine shop on monday. My buddy at work says he 100% wants my old motor so lets hope that goes through. Now I can take some time to do the car and continue saving up a bit.

Looked at some headers and Dyno Dons are probably what I'll end up with there really not anymore expensive than 1 3/4" LT's and he has a Y-pipe to offer.

HiTech5

iTrader: (4)

Do yourself a favor and have the block zero decked so you can get the quench at .040. This will make the motor much less fuel sensitive. This will allow you to run higher compression safely. Trust me, I build my motors this way and they have always responded well.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Thanks for the tip

I deffinatly plan on claying this motor and making sure everything is spot on.

For a bottom end - I'm looking at an eagle kit with cast steel crank, forged rods and hypereutectic pistons. It says its good to 500hp but no rpm rating, I'm going to call them and find out. Anyone have a better suggestion in that price range?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its a good kit for what you need to do

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Another little thing I thought of - Timing Chain and lifters - do I need anything special for the rpms? I just had a cheapo double roller with COMP pushrods on the last motor that saw 6,000rpms reguraly with no issues.

What do you guys think I'll need to run for a converter, 3,200-3,400?

efiguy - how do you think vacuum will be with this cam?

Edit: I keep thinking of more. I played around with compression last night, Eagle only offers flat tops and dished pistons with there kits and with a 5cc flat top, 64 cc chambers, zero deck with a 4.1" bore/.039" thick head gasket I'm at about 10:4:1. Sound about right?

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

That's probably close.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I always like abit more converter in my cars. I would figured 3600 for that setup. 3600 worked well on the 280xfi combos and may have been abit too small, since peak torque was well into the 4000 rpm range. Smaller cam may like it even better. I ran 2800 on my bolt on TPI car For more street driving it may be better to go smaller if you have issues with driving a stalled car. I dont mind them. For drag racing your best ET is gonna come with the higher stall speed.

Look what the LT1 cars run with similar cam setups and those power figures. Alot of those guys run between 3400 and 4000.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Correct, he could go bigger, but all he NEEDS is about a 2800.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

The last set-up I was running a Trans Specialties 12" 2200-2400 converter, but it actually stalled at about 2,800rpms and I loved it, it was perfect for that set-up. I have no issues with driving a stalled car on the street, I'll probably end up going with a 10" 3400ish+, the question is just the brand.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

What do you guys suggest as far as rockers go? Do I need anything special or should I run some type of girdle? Also should I noticed AFR's hydra rev kit, is something worth looking in to?

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I'm using AI's 224 236 .575 cam with afr 1040's. Used comps new gold 1.6 rockers. No girdle or hydro rev. Shift at 6k with no problems. Original lifters.

skinny z

As in OEM lifters?

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Original. The 105k mile ones it had in 1990.....

skinny z

Interesting.
Not that I'm asking you to divulge any secrets but do you have any special procedure for adjusting valve lash? 6000 is getting up there for the stock lifter. I know from experience that 6500 -7000 is beyond their capability. What springs do you use?

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Haha no secrets here. Tighten to zero lash, then 1/2 turn. Heads are just out of the box 1040's. No spring upgrade. I think 6k is the most the stock bottom end can handle anyhow.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My buddy was turning his 280xfi cam stock bottom end car to 6200-6300 They can live alittle higher. IF he had proper springs for that cam, it would have required 6500-6600 shifts easily

skinny z

The reason I ask is becasue one of the projects I'm involved in, a Brodix headed 355 (originall ZZZ block from '92) with a 280+ degree/.580" lift hydraulic roller is severly limited in power output beyond 6000.
It's comes down to the OEM lifter getting out of shape/distorting and bleeding down leading to valve train component seperation at high engine speeds.
There's an entire line of "short travel" lifters that's been on the market for almost a decade that addresses this problem. And believe me, EVERYTHING in this combination has been assessed and/or replaced trying to correct the situation.
In about two weeks time, I'll have my own data as we'll be racing in April.

skinny z

I figured someone would say something like that.
I'm just reporting facts. There's a lot of evidence that says the OEM lifter just can't cut it.
It could very well be your buddies car is not performing up to it's full potential.
Keep in mind that we're talking about a few hundred rpm in the difference. Everything is fine up to a point, then within that couple of hundred rpm, it starts to fail.
May point to valve springs as the culprit (and in a lot of cases I'm sure it is) but this lifter issue is genuine.