Sojer

Ok idk if this is the right spot for this.
I'm at the stage where I need to cut cost I was gonna use a ZZ409 cam from tpis its 375 bucks to get me close 2 500hp which is my goal what is a cheaper cam for a 383 L98 GM fast burn heads dish pistons I don't want a loud cam and I want to run on pump gas. I need a mid 2 high range power band cam its for auto cross and street strip.
If any question feel free 2 ask I will answer all

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

280XFI Comp Cam will get you to the 500+ range but you need to port the hell out of those heads to get you there also. The cam is in the $285-$325. Are you talking about whp or fwhp?

Sojer

Fwhp I was going 2 port them but how u sound about the cam it would have a loud idle I DON'T want that its a sleeper car

Sojer

From the sounds of it, it has a loud idle I don't want that Its a sleeper

scamaro355

if ur wanting a sleeper... i dont see you gettin anywhere close to 500hp without some sort of power adder....

Sojer

why cant i the ZZ409 cam would have if a lambo can make over 500hp with out alot of noise the LS7 can do it why caint I. i dont want 500 to the wheels just to the flywheel and it can be done. I need a mid to high rpm cam no more than 7500 rpm. im not using a forged crank its rated at 500 im sure it can handle more but thats what im lookin at. 500hp in a 3200lb car should get me into mid 11s

joeblue83

iTrader: (8)

I have a 383 with the zz409 cam, 200cc headsand mini ram intake. Its not quite 500 hp (475) Sounds very good, and very streetable

scamaro355

Those engines are a night and day difference from a gen 1 small block... your heads are gonna choke the engine out most likely.. what cc are the intake runners on the ones your useing?.. good heads mean everything! And the heads on a lambo and LS7 flow amazing plus the valves set at different angles.. alot of new technology..

Sojer

215 cc runners 62cc chamber I'm looking at dart heads 230cc runners 72cc chamber will I nee 2 port that or its good enough if years 2 come spray and procharger I just what to be king of the streets and win pinks all out I'm prob just dreaming anybody kno what's the et time they run I kno its off topic. Joeblue83 u has the closest set up I would get with the time I plan 2 run mid 11s.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Certainly are

The fact you are comparing the 55 year old SBC motor design with a state of the art , multi cam , multi valve Lambo engine or even the 14 yo LS motor shows your complete lack of understanding of automotive principles

A bigger port head is not going to work without other supporting mods like a cam
you say you " don't want"
It is all about the combo;
bigger is not better and one part on it's own is worth Sweet FA.

GMPP claim a 9.6 CR, 383 with stock FastBurn heads , GMPP 847 cam
(Much bigger than a 409 cam ,I have a 847 in my 383 ; has a wicked idle you will hate ) dual plane intake, 750cfm Holley will make 440 hp at about 5800

FWIW
72cc heads and dished pistons is not the way to make HP;
low compression truck motor

Sojer

Low CR idea was for running high boost on pump gas. Summit says fast burn heads are good up to 500hp TPIS says with the set up should get me 485 to 500 the whole set up should get me 2 500 with long tubes and cut outs port job 2. Ok plan B low flow mufflers with cut out

Sojer

What's some good heads heads under 800

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cam doesnt necessarily make it "loud" it makes it lope. Exhaust will quiet it down but you will need to run alot of mufflers in series to really get the tone down. COmpression is the big killer on exhaust volume...higher comp means more noise...

Sleeper means quieter, with no lope. You can get that in a cam with a wider LSA but to do 500hp and keep it quiet, its going to require 2 things IMO..... great heads and a very aggressive rate cam lobe with relatively short duration but high lift. You cant go too much on duration because you need to keep the overlap down to keep lope down, but you need to keep valve open enough to pass flow. Only way to get enough flow with short duration is the lift the crap out of the valve so the cam needs ultra high lift Just my thoughts

Your heads likely wont get you there. They'd need work to pass the flow required. Cam should be a custom grind from someone who really knows what to do with the cam lobe design.
With autocross stuff, you want a broad powerband so the cam needs to hold power higher in the rpm range after it peaks for hp...a good large head will help there and abit extra exhaust duration will also help.

Exhaust, I'd run a good 1 3/4 inch shorty header with good collector like dyno don's. You need room under the car to run enough muffler and have ground clearance. Longtubes are hard to do that with. Run dual 2.5 or single 3.5", maybe single 4". If you y them together, put a long round type straight through muffler in the I-pipe region. Dynomax ultraflo round, magnaflow straight thru's, etc. All work well. IF you run duals, run a long tube type muffler also in the I pipe regions, possibly like a LONG bullet muffler or similar magnaflow.

Then go over the axle and run a ultraflo round or oval case style muffler at the bumper with alot of packing/sound absorbing material. Still a straight thru design that wont kill flow but kills sound. With a single exhaust you need to split this pipe over the axle into dual exits.

I think with that combo you will maintain exhaust flow for power but really quiet the car down enough to give it a sleeper mentality.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Check these heads out.

http://www.speierracingheads.com/SRH2.50BUDGET.htm

I came within an eyelash of buying a set. Talk to Chad about your goals and he can recommend a camshaft to go with the heads. Things are changing in head design even in the 23 degree world.

Vincent if you read this thread these heads are not for you.

Sojer

I don't kno much about cams and the heads on that link are 1500 if I spend I will get afr heads. Who make cams and do it cost more than 375. I just know how to bolt stuff up and how it works u guys are helping I learning stuff lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Both Chads v2.50 small bore, profiler 210 econo ported, and AFR 210's are great heads and will work on 383 bore.

The cam and exhaust will make or break this "sleeper" combo. Who makes cams? Alot of people. I'd try Mike Jones over at jonescams.com, bret bauer at bauer-racing.com or over at 1320techtalk.com, and bullet racing cams at bulletcams.com. Those are my favorite 3 so far. I've run jones in my turbo car and bauer in my 383 and now a new bauer grind in my new turbo setup.

Sojer

So the 215 cc runners will not be enough to feed a 500hp 383 I don't have that kinda cash 2 burn on heads no more than 800 maybe I can find some used ones on here darts are good

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Didnt say that. 210cc is plenty to feed a 383. 195cc will feed 500 hp 383.

Sojer

The gm fast burn heads are cheap bout 750 and look like the it flow good but ppl say thay will not flow to feed a 500 hp 383 but I kinda want reg heads so if I run short on cash I can just get a mini ram

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You racing in any specific class at autocross or is it just for fun? Depending on class rules you may beable to do some trick sneaky stuff with the cam to make it sound like a stock idle and yet deliver alot of power. A little longer runner intake will work better for that stuff than the miniram. HSR or a very well ported superram. I was talking to my one cam guy and the LT1 short runner intakes love tight lsa's but that will give away your idle and be noticeable theres a cam in it. He says he has done cams that sound near stock at idle but deliver big power. Something like that can be done.

Still need a good head tho.

Sojer

No class of autocross never did it just street races its something I want 2 get in 2. I want to start racing for money i race in Detroit, MI and most old skool cars that race are 14 13 sec the fastest is bout mid 12s its 1 2010 stang CS with a tune and a 200 shot (auto) and he beats almost every body. And his spray hidden te lines to the motor hidden.

Sojer

Ok am I right cam spec is measured in 100s of an inch. Duration is how long the valve is open and a high duration on exhaust valve is where the cam noise is at. Lift is how high the valve push out. So a cam with a low duration on the exhaust is the best sleeper cam. I'm not looking for hybrid quite just a little rummble like I didn't do much and a mildly built car can give me a *** kicking of a life time if I can keep up with the new ZR1 lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its abit more complicated than that. If you want to be a sleeper, there are tricks to the cam you can use, but muffling the exhaust is the most important and that comes with mufflers

I'd talk to a good cam grinder for your application and see where it goes. I was talkin to Bret Bauer about this and he has a few ideas for this setup. Other guys should beable to do it too, but the BIGGEST gains are gonna be in the heads/intake/cam as a package. It all has to be spec'd out, and thats why I recommended Speier's heads since Bauer can work with him to get valvetrain all figured out.

abray1

Has anyone checked out the 12 degree brodix heads that the sprint car guys run? I am hearing that they flow around 400 CFM and hogan or wilson can make you an EFI intake for about $1500 which is not much more than a mini ram and that would put it well over 500 HP. If it were a 434 maybe around 650-750 HP and street driveable.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The cost to do all that would be extremely expensive. You can get 650hp fairly easily with a good 23 deg head on a 434. Even on a 406. 87_TA on here is abit over 600hp on crank with a solid roller 406 but its a street pump gas car.
700 is abit more of a stretch but can be done. Theres a guy in drag week that has a 402" sbc with ported Dart 23 deg castings with a solid roller that turns 8000 rpm and still streetable...5500 stall i believe but it did run Drag week and almost won n/a class sbc. Engine dyno'd 723 hp.

All mostly solid rollers after the 630-640hp mark. I know of one motor package claiming 640hp with hydraulic roller in a 406-427 package with 23 deg 220cc heads.
18 deg heads would be a cheaper/better solution for the ultimate EFI street motor that will make power and yet still be streetable. 650-700 on that would likely be alot easier to do than with a 23 deg head but either way, 18 deg heads/intake setup would still be alot of money Even a GOOD 23 deg head properly setup will cost a pretty coin. My new 23 deg heads are near 3K all said and done and can support 800 hp on a high comp race motor but I'm not building that. It would be a great head for a 427-440" sbc street motor tho.

Sojer

Y'all talking bout a lot of money remember non forged crank I just want a mid to low 11s. The cam I was gonna get is 375 bucks I want to cut cost a lil bit hopfully I can fide some on selling a miniran fast burn heads for the low and I won't worry about the cam and I can go for a custom cam. Custom cam seems like they cost more than 500 bucks I think. I don't want a shaker over lopping cam I can't wait till I get started my first sbc build.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Customs are usually 300-400 bucks, depending on what core you get. Billet cores are more money but are generally required for more aggressive lobe designs with high pressure springs. MOST hydraulic rollers dont need a billet core tho.

I'd go custom since shelf grinds are around 300. Jones cams are 330 or so, and Bauer makes his for 375-400 I think...i gotta check my invoice.

I'd spend money on the heads to get them performing abit better to get that car in the lower 11's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

From my cam guy...fastburns are like an LT4 head that can move some air if ported. If you did that you can easily get your goal with a nice idle and be a sleeper.

Sojer

Whats some good heads for 750 price. I dont really dont want vortec heads its harder to swap heads and intake has tobe a vortec heads and intake. i may find some AFR heads and i will have to shitch intake too. not too many ppl run those heads and want a miniram. comp cam do custom cams now with no extra charge. Is the ls1 firing order is as simple as crossing wires

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Is the ls1 firing order is as simple as crossing wires"

Yes. If you are patient there are some good deals on heads out there.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ls1 firing order on the cam is abit more expensive to get tho.

Sojer

I read that comp cam don't charge extra for custom cams. So a custom cam and wire crossing to get ls1firing order if I get a custom cam I will go all out. Hopfully I can find a used mini ram set up when I have the money so I can spend the extra bucks on a cam and heads. U guys are helping I new it was possible. Most ppl want their car to be laud as possible waking the whole neighborhood and its hard t find a street race for money. I want my car to cover all grounds from a str8 to corners even braking.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Theres no advantage really in having the ls1 firing order, it just changes the sound alittle bit. IF comp can do it at no cost, then go for it but I would think they'd need to change their tooling to allow for that, and that can be abit more money.

Long Beach Z-28

iTrader: (1)

ORR, I think they will need a custom cam core to do the LS1 swap for the non LS SBC engines. I'm pretty sure thats why it will cost more $$$.
I've been wrong before

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Pretty sure its just $50 extra from most cam companies for a 4/7 swap. Its been proven in testing to have no gain in most 500 hp or less motors, and in some cases, even lost a little power.

Sojer

why will they need a core they have tons of cams and the machine to make cams i dont understand how u can make a bigger lift on a smaller cam. they said it runs smoother and a 15hp gain on comp cam website its better for the sleeper theme i never herd or it till i google custom grind cams

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It all depends. You should ask. You can drill out a sbc cam tunnel to accept the larger cam journal size of the LSx motors but you are just trying to do a firing order swap so you wouldnt need that.

I'm not sure what a blank cam core looks like, but I think comp has "rough cut" cam shapes that are ready to grind in one of the lobes from their catalog. So they are already setup to some degree for the type of motor they are going into. IF thats the case, then they would need to custom cut a new core for the 4/7 and 2/3 swap to make it LSx firing order. That is money.

But I really dont think you will gain anything by doing it other than having slightly different exhaust tone.

Larger cam base circles are easier on valvetrain and if you were doing some max effort type setup, then custom machined block to accept the larger 55mm+ cam journals and LSx series lobes would be the ticket. Also try .903" lifter bores for a larger diameter roller lifter wheel. Now your talking money but you got valvetrain control if it all clears the rods.

You want more lift on standard lobe? You get it on a smaller base circle so the lifter travels higher. But comp has magnum high lift lobes that can reach well over .600" lift with 1.6 rockers and be stable. I've run them on my 383. I have them now on my new turbo setup... .640" lift with hydraulic roller. 1.6 rocker. It will be stable to 7K

LSx guys get high lift because they use 1.7 rockers! My cam in a LSx motor would be .680"....not many lsx cams out there feature that much lift. Thats bigger than most solid rollers guys run.

Sojer

Ima have 2 read what u said over I don't know what u are talking about I just know how to bolt stuff on I know a lil bit on specs but not much every time I look at what u reply its like homework lotsa online reading I know a lot to my friends but u make me look stupid wish I had a friend like u around. Larger cam journals ??? I know what they are but just in clearance and stuff like that. How bout this ima in box you and u tell me the doos and donts how 2 get 500hp sleeper IROC

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It can get complicated, but basically all you need to do is muffle the exhaust and run good heads and a custom grind cam...i'd seriously give bret bauer a call to discuss and look at modifying the heads to get some good power out of them.

Sojer

How can I contact him

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you can try jonescams.com for mike jones....

or email Bret Bauer at Bret@bauer-racing.com

Tell him what you are doing, he should already have an idea based on my discussions with him over at 1320techtalk.com

Sojer

Thanks