Ok Let's See Some Minirams
#51
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
which FAST system would you go with? if your planning power adders then go with the XFI 2.0, if your going stright forward then go for the EZ system. i have one and love it.
Wow, pretty sweet deal! I have been watching ebay for a mini ram intake and was out bit twice. Are you using the stock ECM with a tune or a after market system? I'm thinking about just getting my accel superram base manifold ported, making a cam switch and possibly a Fast system.
#52
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Wow, pretty sweet deal! I have been watching ebay for a mini ram intake and was out bit twice. Are you using the stock ECM with a tune or a after market system? I'm thinking about just getting my accel superram base manifold ported, making a cam switch and possibly a Fast system.
#53
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
See, this is my point in the other thread. A heavy 4th gen, with a 406, miniram, and smallish cam like you say and AFR 195 heads goes 127mph. We're talking over 600 flywheel horsepower.
I'm assuming the car was around 3700lbs with driver.
That's why I felt the power was down a bit on that 421.
I'm kinda psyched to see the SBC fit soo well with dizzy in the engine bay. It's gotten to the point where v6 4th gens are under $1500 all day with nice bodies, which would make a nice daily driver with a 350 + 700R4.
-- Joe
I'm assuming the car was around 3700lbs with driver.
That's why I felt the power was down a bit on that 421.
I'm kinda psyched to see the SBC fit soo well with dizzy in the engine bay. It's gotten to the point where v6 4th gens are under $1500 all day with nice bodies, which would make a nice daily driver with a 350 + 700R4.
-- Joe
Give me a chance with some more tuning and exhaust changes.
I will say that I havent heard many 406's in 3rd gens trapping 127 with a smallish cam? If it weighs 3700 lbs that motor must be around 500rwhp and we all know how hard that is (espcially with 195's).
I am not saying I dont believe it but it's almost too good to be true. Stock C6 Z06's weigh around 3100 without driver and prob average around 122-124 mph with the LS7 powerplant.
#54
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Its 3400-ish lbs and put down 521whp thru ported AFR 195's which now are really 208-210cc that flow almost 310cfm 248/254 solid roller. Car just went 10.47 at 131 mph all motor thru a T56
I will dyno my car all motor with 245cc and 246/252 hyd roller cam to see what it does with crappy exhaust, low compression, and restricted TB inlet Should be interesting
I will dyno my car all motor with 245cc and 246/252 hyd roller cam to see what it does with crappy exhaust, low compression, and restricted TB inlet Should be interesting
#55
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Its 3400-ish lbs and put down 521whp thru ported AFR 195's which now are really 208-210cc that flow almost 310cfm 248/254 solid roller. Car just went 10.47 at 131 mph all motor thru a T56
I will dyno my car all motor with 245cc and 246/252 hyd roller cam to see what it does with crappy exhaust, low compression, and restricted TB inlet Should be interesting
I will dyno my car all motor with 245cc and 246/252 hyd roller cam to see what it does with crappy exhaust, low compression, and restricted TB inlet Should be interesting
We arent comparing apples to apples.
#57
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Well before it was old AFR 195's non-eliminators that were ported from 260's cfm to 286cfm and it went 127 mph with a 242/242 solid roller and miniram. Now its ported even more, with victor EFI single plane and bigger cam. Forgot to mention its previous history, but the heads were in the 195-200cc range back then when it went 125-127mph. Thats still in the 440-450whp range I'd think, maybe as low as 430's, but I was at 400 with similar weight and went 119 in summer so it should have been 120-121 in winter air. 3-4mph would be 30-40whp more
Last edited by Orr89RocZ; 10-08-2011 at 11:56 PM.
#58
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Well before it was old AFR 195's non-eliminators that were ported from 260's cfm to 286cfm and it went 127 mph with a 242/242 solid roller and miniram. Now its ported even more, with victor EFI single plane and bigger cam. Forgot to mention its previous history, but the heads were in the 195-200cc range back then when it went 125-127mph. Thats still in the 440-450whp range I'd think, maybe as low as 430's, but I was at 400 with similar weight and went 119 in summer so it should have been 120-121 in winter air. 3-4mph would be 30-40whp more
Thanks for the info. Whenever I hear about some combo that performs better then most I tend to ask a few questions and then it all makes sense when I hear the total combination.
Like I said not apples to apples. My 421 is as smooth as my stock L-98 when you get past the cam surge which still needs to be tuned. It really is a very civilized, low maintenace motor......
More to come soon when I make a simple exhaust change.
In saying all that 131 mph is hauling the mail n/a!!!!
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; 10-09-2011 at 12:03 PM.
#62
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
"but I think he touched them up alittle "
I think so to. I am thinking about purchasing some AFR 210s from Joe that have been "touched" up. They are out of his sons car and they made 680hp with a single 4 barrel and I think he said 720 with two 4 barrels on a tunnel ram. Going by tomorrow morning for a good look at them.
I think so to. I am thinking about purchasing some AFR 210s from Joe that have been "touched" up. They are out of his sons car and they made 680hp with a single 4 barrel and I think he said 720 with two 4 barrels on a tunnel ram. Going by tomorrow morning for a good look at them.
#64
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
I havent seen any "as cast" 195's making 600chp. I guess its possible with enough CR and camshaft. If I can make 550/580 at the crank when all the dust settles I will be tickled pink.
BTW, What exactly does Sherman do with say a set of 195 comp ports to make them more efficient and is this big bucks?
BTW, What exactly does Sherman do with say a set of 195 comp ports to make them more efficient and is this big bucks?
#65
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
"BTW, What exactly does Sherman do with say a set of 195 comp ports to make them more efficient and is this big bucks?"
Not sure but I can guess. By the way the other day he said mine have been the only set of AFR 195 Comp ports he has sold.
Not sure but I can guess. By the way the other day he said mine have been the only set of AFR 195 Comp ports he has sold.
#66
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Let's here your guess then.....
#68
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
IMO for 2g's the comp ports arent worth the cost over the street 195 or 210s. I'd love to see what difference a comp 196cc head makes over a 210cc street port head.
Its the same deal with profiler 195 and 210's. The 210 is just basically a 195 with the short side layed back and some extra port shaping to make it cc out at 210 and enlarge the pushrod pinch. Speier racing sells primarily 210cc profilers since a motor that will work well with the 195's, will also work with the 210s. There wont be any loss with the 210's so might as well just run 210's for the same cost. Get alittle more growth out of the head in case you change things. The port velocities are similar so both work well on any application.
Its the same deal with profiler 195 and 210's. The 210 is just basically a 195 with the short side layed back and some extra port shaping to make it cc out at 210 and enlarge the pushrod pinch. Speier racing sells primarily 210cc profilers since a motor that will work well with the 195's, will also work with the 210s. There wont be any loss with the 210's so might as well just run 210's for the same cost. Get alittle more growth out of the head in case you change things. The port velocities are similar so both work well on any application.
Last edited by Orr89RocZ; 10-09-2011 at 11:32 PM.
#69
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
You put too much head on a motor it's going to run like a turd on the street. Especially in a manual trans.
-- Joe
#70
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Okay, just got back from Joe Shermans shop and eyeballed the AFR 210 heads he has for sale. As I stated Joe said they had been modified and they were by sleeving the pushrod area and removing that material from the pinch area. Also they have been touched up in other areas and one obvious one was removing the AFR vane. I also took some measurements.
The throat is 1.87" which is virtually identical to the inside diameter of my runners. The pushrod pinch is 2.279in"/sq accounting for the 3/8" radius in each corner. Here are the flow numbers using Joes flow bench with no pipe on the exhaust.
Lift/Intake/Exhaust
.200" 153/108
.300" 212/174
.400" 260/203
.500" 293/212
.600" 312/217
.700" 316/219
So I think they are just about perfect for the goals I am trying to achieve. I went ahead and made the purchase. On my motor the lift is .594" so the .700" lift is of no consequence to me. The airspeed is down into a more reasonable range so I should be able to more easily access it. As to the air flow the fast spot will be at the pinch area with everything else a smooth transition.
Hey Vincent, just trying to keep your thread alive.
The throat is 1.87" which is virtually identical to the inside diameter of my runners. The pushrod pinch is 2.279in"/sq accounting for the 3/8" radius in each corner. Here are the flow numbers using Joes flow bench with no pipe on the exhaust.
Lift/Intake/Exhaust
.200" 153/108
.300" 212/174
.400" 260/203
.500" 293/212
.600" 312/217
.700" 316/219
So I think they are just about perfect for the goals I am trying to achieve. I went ahead and made the purchase. On my motor the lift is .594" so the .700" lift is of no consequence to me. The airspeed is down into a more reasonable range so I should be able to more easily access it. As to the air flow the fast spot will be at the pinch area with everything else a smooth transition.
Hey Vincent, just trying to keep your thread alive.
#72
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
The stock AFR 195 head is about 1.9Xin/sq at the pushrod pinch. I measured a friends AFR 210 head and it is about 2.089in/sq at the pushrod pinch. I saw where a AFR220 head was 2.4in/sq at the pushrod pinch but I am not sure if that had the radius in the corners accounted for. If not than it is identical to the head I just bought from Joe in that regard.
I like the way Joe made the pinch area larger by using the sleeve method and removing that portion of the pinch wall. It gives the airflow a somewhat straighter path to the intake valve. Yes you are right, I bet they will pour about 220cc.
I like the way Joe made the pinch area larger by using the sleeve method and removing that portion of the pinch wall. It gives the airflow a somewhat straighter path to the intake valve. Yes you are right, I bet they will pour about 220cc.
#74
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Sound like you will be selling your heads to me soon! I do have the money on hand now if the price is right.
#76
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
"You put too much head on a motor it's going to run like a turd on the street. Especially in a manual trans."
Yes, however IMHO with long tube runners and EFI you will have more wiggle room. With a carb and short runners you don't have the wiggle room.
Yes, however IMHO with long tube runners and EFI you will have more wiggle room. With a carb and short runners you don't have the wiggle room.
#77
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
"You put too much head on a motor it's going to run like a turd on the street. Especially in a manual trans."
#79
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Car craft did this test years ago, which made more power big heads or big cam?
Wonder if its on the web some place..
Wonder if its on the web some place..
#80
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Normally I wouldnt have, but since my buddy just opened up a shop near where my car is stored, i dont have to go far to get tested, so I will put it on and maybe do 3 pulls or so. Wont waste too much time with it. Street tune will dial in the air fuel ratio and I'll just get a baseline to see how much it picks up on boost. Keep in mind tho, the exhaust will be FAR from optimal and the intake may still be restricted abit with the throttle body unless i get a 90mm or something. I need to track one down or else I may use the stock LS1 TB for now
#81
#82
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
It could go either way but I'll favor big heads/smaller cam over small heads/big cam any day. Think cc306/gm847 type cams (230-232 deg intake, 240's on exhaust) on stock LT1 heads...~360whp. Not bad for a stock head. Now look at AI ported heads, and AI's mild cam combos...220-224-ish deg cams that are a step above LT4 hotcam. They can make same hp without all the radical cam overlap and choppy idle.
Same with LS1/LS2/LS3 etc. They use big valves/big ports on the later gen stuff with small cams and make power. Its generally the same pattern used in EMC engine contests. Relatively large valve, large lift cams with shorter seat durations. basically jerking valve open incredibly fast. Some guys run over .800" lift for 2500-6500 rpm ranges!!
Same with LS1/LS2/LS3 etc. They use big valves/big ports on the later gen stuff with small cams and make power. Its generally the same pattern used in EMC engine contests. Relatively large valve, large lift cams with shorter seat durations. basically jerking valve open incredibly fast. Some guys run over .800" lift for 2500-6500 rpm ranges!!
#83
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
car crafts test was a older one but the stock block with the larger heads/small cam made more power than a small head/big cam.. just like the LS stuff does today..
duh huh???
duh huh???
#84
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
-- Joe
#85
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
I'm judgeing from your comments you are a believer in the mini ram intake over the superram. With the set up I have now my 87 Formula went 12.30 @ 109. It was last dynoed with 335rwhp @ 5,500 and 375rwt @ 4,600. Thats with a 3.27 & 2,800 stall. Part of the reason I'm thinking of making the change is I have so much low end torque its all about traction. I figured by switching to the mini ram or HSR I could move my torque curve up and flatten it some and hopefully get a 11.99 out of the car. Tpsi thinks by installing their cam and mini ram should be good for about 60rwhp. I do like the numbers your putting down with the comp cam you have. It seems to be a popular cam I have seen other using it. Still watching ebay for a used mini ram. Thanks for your thoughts.
#86
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
335rwhp @ 5,500 and 375rwt @ 4,600.
#87
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Car: 1990 G92 IROC Z Miniram
Engine: 388cu 6.4 Liters
Transmission: G-Force T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Gears
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
I'm judgeing from your comments you are a believer in the mini ram intake over the superram. With the set up I have now my 87 Formula went 12.30 @ 109. It was last dynoed with 335rwhp @ 5,500 and 375rwt @ 4,600. Thats with a 3.27 & 2,800 stall. Part of the reason I'm thinking of making the change is I have so much low end torque its all about traction. I figured by switching to the mini ram or HSR I could move my torque curve up and flatten it some and hopefully get a 11.99 out of the car. Tpsi thinks by installing their cam and mini ram should be good for about 60rwhp. I do like the numbers your putting down with the comp cam you have. It seems to be a popular cam I have seen other using it. Still watching ebay for a used mini ram. Thanks for your thoughts.
#88
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
peak torque seems high in the rpm range, especially compared to the hp peak at 5500. I dont know your whole combo, it sounds like its restricted at 5500 rpm with the intake and maybe heads too. Miniram should improve rpm range to 6000+ if the cam is big enough. 4600 rpm peak torque would make me guess peak hp was over at or over 6000. My 383 with HSR was flat between 4000 and about 5000 rpm for torque, so call it peak at 4000 and it peaked hp at 6250 and held to 6600+. Short runner stuff makes for a broad power band.
Last edited by SuperRamFormula; 10-11-2011 at 04:02 PM. Reason: correct info
#89
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
You will see a big difference if you put a Miniram on it. I wish we had sea level tracks in Socal so we can see the max performancein our cars. But we are still learning. One thing I can see is TPI cars with mods doesn't need too much gear above 3.42's like the C4 Vetts. Trying to get the average TPI engine to peak at 6000 takes a lot of work and money. Most peak around 5600 and that's where the the car was going through the traps @ 112mph with 3.73 gears. I think with 3.42' would be better and maybe trap @ 114-115mph. What do you guys think? Remember this was with the Super Ram not with the Miniram.
#90
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
yeah with the miniram and those heads, you could use more cam. I'd make sure the valve springs are up to the task of the current cam tho. Are you getting any valve float in the higher 5000 rpm range? Did you take it that high on the dyno?
I've played around with a 280xfi cam on afr 190's in a friends car that had stock AFR springs in it that were only around 120lb seat pressure and it got nasty float above 5800. You need good stiff springs and great kit is the patriot extreme gold spring kit for 285 bucks for the 11/32" valve stems. (the lt1 kit, since the ls1 kit is for 8mm valves) They are about 155lbs on the seat.
If it peaked at 5600 and you went thru the traps at 5600, you were doing pretty good on your gearing. 3.73's is about perfect for that combo. Most optimal drag times are found with gearing that allows you to cross the line at peak hp or slightly above.
If you peak at 6000 now, you will want to cross near 6000-6200 or so. Now if the motor picked up alot more average power with the miniram, it may now trap higher than 112 so gear accordingly but i dont think going to the numerically lower gear will help. If anything, the new combo may want same 3.73 or 3.90-4.11's.
I've played around with a 280xfi cam on afr 190's in a friends car that had stock AFR springs in it that were only around 120lb seat pressure and it got nasty float above 5800. You need good stiff springs and great kit is the patriot extreme gold spring kit for 285 bucks for the 11/32" valve stems. (the lt1 kit, since the ls1 kit is for 8mm valves) They are about 155lbs on the seat.
You will see a big difference if you put a Miniram on it. I wish we had sea level tracks in Socal so we can see the max performancein our cars. But we are still learning. One thing I can see is TPI cars with mods doesn't need too much gear above 3.42's like the C4 Vetts. Trying to get the average TPI engine to peak at 6000 takes a lot of work and money. Most peak around 5600 and that's where the the car was going through the traps @ 112mph with 3.73 gears. I think with 3.42' would be better and maybe trap @ 114-115mph. What do you guys think? Remember this was with the Super Ram not with the Miniram.
If you peak at 6000 now, you will want to cross near 6000-6200 or so. Now if the motor picked up alot more average power with the miniram, it may now trap higher than 112 so gear accordingly but i dont think going to the numerically lower gear will help. If anything, the new combo may want same 3.73 or 3.90-4.11's.
#91
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Do you think I need a taller slick? I have a 26-10.5.
#92
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Should beable to hook up on that size. Thats all the bigger I ever used but I have a softer launching automatic, but its still been 1.4 60 foots. I'd run it again with the new intake and get an idea what it traps and what rpm it hits and make changes from there. It may not need anymore gear but certainly wouldnt take gear out
#93
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Doesn't feel like the valves are floating. To be honest I'm not sure what my seat pressure is but, when I ordered them I told them what cam was going in it and did invest in titanium retainers. I normally shift between 5400-5800. Engine revs no problem just you can feel the power flattening out in the upper rpm's. I would like to change that. Need some top-end blast. If I don't beat the car I'm racing by 3/4 track I won't. Thanks for the info.
#94
Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Probably stock superram then that is limiting top end. Titanium retainers help alot but I'd be curious what the springs are that are in the head if you go to a new cam.
I'd atleast try a miniram or HSR with the same cam and see what it does. It really should extend hp above 5200 and carry to 6K fairly well.
I'd atleast try a miniram or HSR with the same cam and see what it does. It really should extend hp above 5200 and carry to 6K fairly well.
#95
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
Probably stock superram then that is limiting top end. Titanium retainers help alot but I'd be curious what the springs are that are in the head if you go to a new cam.
I'd atleast try a miniram or HSR with the same cam and see what it does. It really should extend hp above 5200 and carry to 6K fairly well.
I'd atleast try a miniram or HSR with the same cam and see what it does. It really should extend hp above 5200 and carry to 6K fairly well.
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Re: Ok Let's See Some Minirams
this engine is my background on my phone was my wife and son
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