okfoz

I was wondering if there was any word on the street to whether anyone was making or planning on making a LS1 style intake, to replace the stock TPI unit on a Gen 1 or Gen 2 SBC.

I found the new "Turtle Ram" as I was told that was going to be that type of intake, but from what I can tell its not, basically it looks like a new variation on the Linginfelter type "Super Ram" by shortening the runners...

Just curious, I tried a search, but I do not know what to search for...

Thanks

John

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

What are the reasons you think the LS1 intake is superior?

okfoz

The Tube length of the TPI are long, when you consider that the new Turtle Ram, the Mini-Ram, T-ram, Super-Ram are all shorter in comparison and they use larger ports to increase airflow, it would only make sence to create a LS type intake on top of a Gen 1 Engine. Where our TPI goes from the Top down, Air goes into the Plenum then into narrow tubes and then comes into a larger chamber, the LS1 type intake takes the air from a lower plenum, the tubes are larger allowing more air as they are more of a constant size... Same goes with the LT1, but that is much shorter in comparison...

If you look at the lengths of the LS1/LS2 etc tubes they are about the same as a T-Ram would be, but much more compact and in a single unit. One thing that I Love about my TPI is the way it looks, it simply looks cool. The down side is where a LS1 intake is one piece the TPI has 4 pieces... Less things to go wrong, less chance for leaks... Easier to clean...

I Knew the Gen 3 intake wouldl not work on a Gen 1 engine because it is designed completely different. The Gen 1 & Gen 2 Engines use a Parralell system, where you have two sets of twin ports on each head. and a 1 - 2 - 1 Exhaust. The Gen 3 uses 4 ports in and 4 ports out, all evenly spaced...

I just thought it might be a good idea to take the new technology of the LS type intake and implement it on a old Gen 1 engine is all...

Technically the Ls1 intake is very similar to the 1991 Buick 3800 intake...

John

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

All good points. I think what you are talking about is a ready to bolt on intake system. We have not seen the BBK "turtle ram" but does seem to have some promise.


The way I see it the LS1 intake is a updated version of the TPI unit. The intake runners on both are shaped like a question mark. With the LS1 the plenum is on the bottom with the runners crossing over the top. With the TPI the runners cross under the bottom of the plenum. Same with the SuperRam and BBK.

The runners on the LS1 intake manifold are around 13.5 inches long included the head. The TPI runners are somewhere around 21 inches and the SuperRam is around 15.5" long. With the BBK we will have to wait and see.

Stock the LS1 runners have a better taper and cross sectional area that compliments the LSI motor. The others are more of a compromise to fit a variety of displacements. The BBK is an unknown at this point.

So to come up with a LS1 style intake manifold we would need a total runner length of 13.5" with the proper cross sectional area and taper. None of the current crop of intake manifold system fill the bill. Still waiting on the BBK.

IMHO the easiest to fill the bill is the Accel SuperRam. With a grinder it is no problem at all to siamese two inches of runner to attain the 13.5" of runner. That seems to be the magic number for good all around torque and horsepower. Also with a grinder you can open up the runners and intake manifold to get a good taper and cross sectional area. Still waiting on the BBK. So IMHO the SuperRam is the easiest one to upgrade to emulate a LS1 style intake.

I think a company could make an LS1 style intake system to fit a SBC but I'm not sure the market and cost would make it worthwhile.

okfoz

I thought this was what everyone was calling the turtle ram:



Not what I was hoping for by any means as this intake reminds me of the Accel/Lingenfelter Super ram, although cosmetically different the tube lengths look to be similar...

Not the Turtle Ram?

john

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yep, that is what I was refering to. Sorry for any confusion. We will need to get ahold of one for measurements.

okfoz

THat looks nothing like what i expected it to...

This is more like what I wanted



John

AC

iTrader: (3)

The "turtle ram"....gosh I think that sounds funny but it was modelled much like a SuperRam but with ergonimcs of working on it taken into account.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"This is more like what I wanted"

One could design an intake manifold like that for the SBC with the runners in pairs instead of alternating. I don't know how the clearances would be with the throttle body that low. Also I don't know how the distributor would clear. I would like to see it in composite plastic for the thermal properties.

AC

iTrader: (3)

I keep beating the idea around in my head BUT, why aren't we designin our own runner/plenums based off of say EdelB, Accell, or TPIS intakes? I mean, they are decent (maybe I dare say good) intakes. Why spend Xxxx thousands of bux on a custom EFI intake from the big boys? I wish I new how to weld aluminum because I would try and try and try.

Is it that hard to do something up DIY style similiar to the TMNT ram or say even a superram?

Don't get me wrong, I like BBK's attempt because its fresh and its new. Theres been a decent gap of time since the last unveiling of a good intake (insert HSR cheers here).

okfoz

The problem is there is so much that goes into a design like that... It would be entirely possible to get a smelter and start casting your own parts... I thought about doing just that... Ultimately it boils down to it would cost you more to buy the equipment & materials than it does to buy one done.

Its harder than it seems, lets put it that way... My father is a Metalurgical Engeneer, and we have talked about doing some of these things on older buick BB motors... In the end its not worth the hassle, unless you have a ton of time to kill.

BTW, the intakes are not welded together, they are all cast... The runners may be made in seperate pieces and welded together, but I still think they were somehow cast...

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

It was probably somewhere around a year ago, but I read in GM high tech perf. That someone had come up with an all-sheetmetal aluminum intake for thirdgens... It was in the new products section and was pricy. All I remember was it was really cool looking and shiny!

AC

iTrader: (3)

okfoz, I should have clarified. I realize the production intakes are all cast. I was talking about a hand fabbed, sheet metal (12-14guage aluminum plate) intakes I've seen here and there. If I can find a decent pic of my thougths I'll post it up. I've seen them before. Not as fancy or expensive as say a Hogan intake but hand fabbed (tig welded, minor milling) and they supposedly flow better than most aftermarket intakes.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Come to think of it, that may have been a hogans... I was talking to a rep at F.A.S.T. about a year and a half ago about a composite intake like my lsx intake, and he said if I could generate enough interest in a gen1 sbc intake they might make one...Hmmm. It would be cool to use one of their 90 mm tb's.

AC

iTrader: (3)

I don't mean to hijack but yes, a LSX style is nice and we realize some of the benifits but if we could all experiment with intakes such as this: http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813239 or this: http://www.force-efi.com/fabmach.htm we would be closer to a nice custom setup that outperformed what costs us hundreds of dollars. I wish I had learned how to TIG aluminum and bought a Bridgeport

Found one other that looks promising: http://www.racev8s.com/manifolds.html

okfoz

Those intakes are definitely interesting... But one of the key things I wanted a LSX type of intake was for hood clearance... Nothing worse than having a Hood Scoop or a hole in your hood just advertising hat your "Fast" My theory is, let them figure out how fast you are when all they see is Red Taillights ...

On a completely different note, I thought the LSX was a particular engine, IE a block you bought from GM (454 CI)... Its like a LS1, LS2 LS3 etc designator, the X does not indicate an unknown. Correct me if I am wrong, I am really curious...

John

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

okfoz, you are right, the lsx is a particular casting. The reason I and others call it lsx is because all of the ls engines ( Ls1, ls2, ls3, ls7, lq9, etc.) share similar geometry in that they all have the same valley dimensions, have a structural oil pan, etc. The fans and magazines and aftermarket companies coined the term to describe these new motors long before gm produced the lsx block. It is just a term. The box my F.A.S.T. intake came in says " F.A.S.T. LSX intake" right on it. LOL, its 4 years old, I wonder if the new boxes say that...

doc

I proposed an LSX type intake on this board maybe about 6 to 8 months ago. One of the posters said that it was not possible, but never got into any details. The only main issue that I see is that our thirdgen intakes manifolds have a coolant water crossover from one head to the other which runs thru the intake. But, that can be addressed in the design from the beginning. Having a '87 thirdgen car and a '99 LS1 (now an LS2 engine), I "see" the advantages in flow between the two types of intakes. The LSx type intakes give up nothing on the bottom end, and still flow big numbers at high RPM. This in something none of our alternative intakes give us.

I wish that I could talk someone into designing an LSx type intake for our cars. I think that the only company that might be interested that has the capability is F.A.S.T.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Hmmm....IMO F.A.S.T.=C.O.S.T. I'm not downing their products but damn, it doesn't come cheap I head back from the owner of that last link I posted. His manifolds run in the $2200 for efi.

Okfoz, just curious. Did your original question come because you're building an engine, or just curious as to why that sort of intake isnt offered for our gen of engines?

okfoz

Then I will use LSX as a Generic term...

My original post came about because I like the idea that the LSX intake is more simple than the TPI intake. Where you have 4 pieces to serve a function on a TPI, the LSX intake only has one piece. The benefit is you have less chance of air leakage ( a huge problem with some TPI's ) AND you still retain the long runners like the TPI. I suspect working on the intake, like changing the injectors should be easier, as there is less that gets in the way. In contrast the LT1, or Miniram type intake actually really shortens the runner length, not sure how much of that plays into the actual performance of the engine as they tend to create more power than a stock TPI intake... The down side of all this is the TPI is an icon to the 80's and its technology, it was THE intake system to have and I still see some hot rodders still prefer the design for looks....

I guess thats really it, I would be really curious to take some Vortec heads and an LSX intake for the Gen 1 or 2 engine and go to town, on an otherwise stock system I bet it would perform pretty well...

John

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

IMHO we have duplicated the LSX style intake by modifying the TPI and SuperRam systems. This takes some work and of course is not bolt on.

I think you are looking for a bolt on unit that you can buy off the shelf. The water/thermostat can easily be done. The EGR can be done. Not sure about the distributor. That might be a problem with the plenum on the bottom of the runners.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

For the money nessesary to develop a LSx based intake for Gen 1 I think it might be better spent on a First Injection setup, or a LT1/HSR swap. The First setup would get you your flow, as well as keeping the mid-range torque of a TPI.

okfoz

I know I would not pass Emissions, but I am not worried about the EGR, a little Programming and I can get rid of that... We do not have Emissions checking up here in MI anyways, and from What I have been told the counties where they do the checking they only go back 10 or 15 years...

John

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I am not worried about the EGR"

I think if the EGR was not available that would probably cut the number of buyers in half. The price would most likely be higher in order for the manufacturer to recoup their costs.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I'm pretty sure the HSR and Mini-ram sell quite well without EGR provisions.

Its possible to pass emissions tests with nothing else other than a cat, and has been done many times on the boards.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

This is something I've been kicking around for a while, my father has Sea Ray boat with a 350 EFI in it. They have a very similar induction set up to a LS series motor. One big difference is that the TB is facing upwards with an air filter (looks almost like its TBI), they also will make suitable power up to 6000 RPM's, maybe more with some mods. Brand new this stuff is expensive, but I'm sure you could find a messed up boat with one, with a little money and some creativity I'm sure this can be done, and I would love to do it. I have always wondered what it would take to make it work as it is for a SBC.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

irocZ30589; you could make that intake work, but you will need an intake elbow and will need to modify the water neck area as marine motors usually use lake/sea water for cooling. Also there is no provision for egr. That wouldnt work in my state but it might work in yours.

Thirdgen89GTA; The miniram and hsr may be common in some states but Ive only seen a few in AZ. No one buys them here, because they will fail the visual, also if you are caught on the street with them they will impound your car.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Nope, no more emission testing, and I do believe okfoz has the same situation. I guess I'll just have to find one of these and see what it will take to make it work.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

IrocZ30589 that looks like the intake system off of the Chevy L31 motor that uses Vortex heads. There is a marine unit who's name escapes me for the moment that makes one more on the line of the LSX. The marine intake has been written up quite abit and how to do the conversion. They can be had used for a decent enough price. New they are quite expensive.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

I figured it would be similar to the vortec, as the new 4.3 they advertise with MPFI is nothing more than a vortec 4.3. Thanks for the info I never thought to search if anyone has done the conversion as I am very interested in doing it.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Actually I take that back after looking at the picture one more time. The L31 motor has the injectors on the inside of the plenum. Those are on the outside and has standard injectors. That picture you posted is the Marine unit. My mistake.

IROCtheThird

iTrader: (15)

Yeah, and after seeing a real picture of the lower IM it looks really restrictive, the fact that the TB comes in from the top doesnt help, the thing is though the Mercruiser 350 MAG is rated at 320 hp and will spin up to 55-5800 rpm, I know this from experience. I did a little reading and I guess a spacer between the upper/lower IM helps the situation. I'd have to do some more research on it as when I build my 383 I would like to keep FI but am unsure if I want to keep TPI. (okfoz-sorry for hogging the post)

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yeah when I did my L31 rebuild I used the spacer between the upper and lower manifolds to increase the plenum volume. Also had the throttle body opened up with a new blade. I think this fits into the theme of the thread in looking for alternate intake systems.

ls six

Look at the late model Dodge Magnum engines. They have a cast LS style IM that uses a vertical TB and a valley plenum. The Chrysler small blocks also have siamesed intake ports so it could serve as a reference model.


I am thinking a regular square bore aftermarket IM with injector bungs and a TB adapter is the simplest solution. I want to use the L31 TB cause it looks like it'll flow well but I dont think it'll work with the dual plane I want to use.

A TBI throttle body would work better with a dual plane and the sensors and IAC are all there but I dont think it'll flow as well as the stock TB.