Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. You know what's funny too, those who are more carburetor oriented, and understand how to tune it accordingly, make the very best EFI tuners out there once they learn how to use the software. This is why I laugh when I hear people say that they are more "carburetor" friendly because they can't relate to prom burning/tuning. It's essentially the same thing, just a different process of achieving the same, yet more efficient and precise, result.....

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Wow I missed quite a bit in this thread. I'm sorry, I can't give you any data log readouts because I don't have the proper equipment. I also personally am not too happy with the crew over at J&M as far as thier tuning abilities go. I feel like I know more than they do at this point. AC from the board here will probably be giving me a hand when I get the car back to my house and we can see whats going on with the tune. I am disgusted in TPIS now as well though, even if it is not the mini ram, and I do plan on getting my money back. These cars are just NOT popular enough for any shops to know how to tune them, unfortunately. Thank you for the help everyone though....You have me starting to think it is the tune now thow, hearing similiar problems from others.

spills

iTrader: (9)

what reason exactly? Not because the motor needs to be tuned to the MR I hope?

EDIT: You must be talking about the programming they use. I guess that can be looked at either a negative or a positive angle. Yea, out of the box it sucks, but it does kind of force you to learn how to tune the motor properly and on your terms. But, if you don't want to tune the motor, then ya it does kinda suck.

AC

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to finally chime in here. I've talked to WhiteDevil (sick car!! BTW). I want to help this guy, 1) cause he's local, 2) cause he's a fellow 3rd gen member and 3) He payed WAY too much for a chip when I believe to the roots that DIY is the only way. We are a group that can be compared to the guys who frickend breathed gas for hours on end in the 50's and 60's tuning there carbs for street use after a weekend of track torture.

I won't rule out the intake for now but after anesthes comments about the vaccum being within an acceptable range I won't spend all my time checking over that. I've asked whitedevil to prepare a couple pieces of hardware before hand to help both him and myself. I don't / won't remove my Ostrich to help him but I would suggest he buys a chip adapter from Moates and we can burn him a new chip or to buy an Ostrich. The other needed item would be the ALDL cable. Lastly if he's feeling spunky he could get a WB02...these are just suggestions and I could help him without all of it but I want to help him learn the way I learned. BTW, I'm THRILLED at how I've gotten my machine to work. Drivable within repsects and I'm guessing I'm going to insult people at the track.

A simple datalog of his car will hopefully identify some areas we need to massage. Hell, I may go all out and put my LC-1 in his car temporarily just to see that beast roar. Anyhow, check out my video if you want. This is my car which I just got running after a 5 year long build last October (VERY bad tune). This video was taken this month, approx 8 months after I got into tuning and I'd say its performing decent. Enough of my rant. BTW, Joe, you need to come down for my BBQ (invite coming) We'll have a tuning chat over a couple of beers and burgers.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Meh, that's because of the slower sample rate and chip burning requirement. It's not that they don't know how to tune, per se, it's just they're more focused on where company demand actually is....

spills

iTrader: (9)

AC: Nice car, nice vid!

Let us know if yall make any progress. Im about to start tuning my Megasquirted HSR, Id like to see where this goes.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Spills, thanks. The reason I posted that vid link is to show others, YES, you can learn tuning. I was reading / researching for about 2 years. Nothing serious but looking at different posts regarding DIY tuning. My hope is whitedevil's intake issue is like some others are saying....possibly a tuning issue. Back to the thread. I dont have any issue with TPIS as I'm running there Bigmouth intake but I have heard a few other "horror" stories of the mini-ram so I'm just as curious to see what this all boils down to.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Ahhh, but you have it much easier though. The promless MegaSquirt has a self tune feature, making your job much less time consuming in the long run....

spills

iTrader: (9)

hehe, ya thats one reason I went with it. That and I had completely ripped out the entire LO3 harness and started from scratch.

</hijack>

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=AC;3834602]I'm going to finally chime in here. I've talked to WhiteDevil (sick car!! BTW). I want to help this guy, 1) cause he's local, 2) cause he's a fellow 3rd gen member and 3) He payed WAY too much for a chip when I believe to the roots that DIY is the only way. We are a group that can be compared to the guys who frickend breathed gas for hours on end in the 50's and 60's tuning there carbs for street use after a weekend of track torture.

I won't rule out the intake for now but after anesthes comments about the vaccum being within an acceptable range I won't spend all my time checking over that. I've asked whitedevil to prepare a couple pieces of hardware before hand to help both him and myself. I don't / won't remove my Ostrich to help him but I would suggest he buys a chip adapter from Moates and we can burn him a new chip or to buy an Ostrich. The other needed item would be the ALDL cable. Lastly if he's feeling spunky he could get a WB02...these are just suggestions and I could help him without all of it but I want to help him learn the way I learned. BTW, I'm THRILLED at how I've gotten my machine to work. Drivable within repsects and I'm guessing I'm going to insult people at the track.

A simple datalog of his car will hopefully identify some areas we need to massage. Hell, I may go all out and put my LC-1 in his car temporarily just to see that beast roar. Anyhow, check out my video if you want. This is my car which I just got running after a 5 year long build last October (VERY bad tune). This video was taken this month, approx 8 months after I got into tuning and I'd say its performing decent. Enough of my rant. BTW, Joe, you need to come down for my BBQ (invite coming) We'll have a tuning chat over a couple of beers and burgers.QUOTE]


I DO want to get a wideband soon. If it would help the tuning a lot more, if you want to wait 2 or so weeks, I will buy one and then have you come up to take a look. By the way....what is an LC-1? Sounds cool whatever it is, lol. Just got get some small financial things outta the way and then the car will be my number one priority!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's a wideband O2 sensor....

spills

iTrader: (9)

Innovate LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor. Im going to be getting mine from DIYautotune.com when I get the money.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Whitedevil, take your time. I'm not moving or anything My car's fuel pressure is on the fritz right now anyhow so I'm garage bound for a few till I figure that out. If you want my opinion or advice I would first ask "Will you continue tuning in the future?" IF you will then get the WB02 from Moates.net or someone. There's the CO's PLX and Innovative. Both offer fine WB02's. I'll PM you my number and we can chat via phone on the options.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Well, after all this BS I've gone through, I guess I gotta start somewhere...after all, the only person I would ever trust to do things right on my car is me, haha, so yes, I probably will get into tuning. PM me your number and I can ask you about all the options and so forth that I've got to work with. And thanks again for offering the help!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

APYP might be a good starting bin for his combo. I'd run about 24 degrees of idle, 38-40 degrees cruise, 32-34 degrees WOT and zero out PE spark.
Should be a fast car when it's done.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You can contact Ryan.Hess here at TGO for PROM adapter boards. He is more DIY price oriented than the commercial websites. He was charging $15 for a complete DIY PROM adapter. You can buy the 27SF512 chips at Mouser.com. You can buy a Willem programmer for it for around $50. All together, you can be burning chips for less than $80.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I sure hope it's quick when it's done after all this BS!! Just found a smokin deal on a 2000 WS6 and trust me, it's very tempting. Owned one once and really can't complain about anything about them.

jsmith929

I think the MR is probably not matching up with the heads,My tpi base I bought used and put on my car was milled and I didn't notice .I had same problem bad idle real heavy fuel at idle and thru the rpm .I reset that manifold atleast 3 times before I figured it out.Thing had so much fuel cat turned brigt orange before I caught it.
Joe

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

whitedevil total induction tuning in s. windsor does an excellent job w/tuning they have an in house dyno and they do all kinds of efi tuning might wanna check them out

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Never heard of them.....although I'm sure they charge an arm and a leg as with any other shop that is good at tuning, and at this point, I REALLY don't have the funds to afford that. As it is, J&M said they could "tune" my car on the dyno for around 1000$.........HA! I don't think so.

What street are they off of? I know of a few places off of route 5, but not them.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

they charged me 100 for setup and like 175 an hour on the dyno they are right off rt5 on nutmeg rd n right in a row of businesses that just work on cars and stuff guy has a sick 8or 9 sec grand nat he runs a turbo setup oh by the way im on the other site too just joined it

vwdave

100 setup and 175/hr for dynotime? Jesus christ!!

I am going to charge $30 setup and 85/hr when I purchase a dyno.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

How many hours did your car take to tune? Thats a lot of money.....and while they are probably good at what they do, most people just can't afford to have someone tune thier car, unfortunately. As it is, I am so far in the hole from troubleshooting this thing for the past 4 months....sucks but it's my girlfriend right now, and she needs me!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

How do you figure? None of the symptoms would indicate a vacuum leak.


Dyno tuning is useless.

A dyno cannot simulate driving up hill.
A dyno cannot simulate driving down hill.
A dyno cannot simulate slowing down, slightly speeding up, taking a corner in gear, etc.
A dyno cannot compensate for drag and wind resistance in the 1/4 mile.

All a dyno really can do, is help dial in AFR under WOT and get an 'idea' of horsepower output.

If you don't know how to tune a car, don't argue with people who do.

-- Joe

BADMAN

iTrader: (13)

I am currently building a 383 and plan on using a Mini-Ram setup. It's good to see a thread like this. I have learned a lot just reading this thread. Keep up the good work!

vwdave

A dyno tune isnt the end all, but it can REALLY help and speed up the process.

An inerta dyno (such as dynojet) is like what you described. If the place has a eddy current dyno (such as a Mustang dyno or purchase the $10k upgrade for dynojet) then you can do some of stuff you described. The eddy current can lock the car based on MPH, RPM's, Load. Basically, you can set it up to lock the car at 2000, increase throttle input and tune the load based on that.

I am running a XFI, so I am basing my tuning info on that.

1. Uphill, sure. It goes by increased load, nothing more nothing less. And if you want to split hairs, not all hills are at the same angle, so the load would be slightly different.

2. Downhill poses a problem. The only way you can simulate that, is to let it fly in 3rd gear, activate the brakes or let the inerta of the drums keep spinning and tune it by that. I wouldnt trust that though.

Slowing down, see #2, slightly speeding up, see #1, taking a corner in gear, depending on accelerating or decelerating, see #1 or #2.

For drag and wind resistance, I'll give you that one.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Haha, I hope to god you don't go through what I have, and I am glad I'm helping people to not make the same mistakes. I'll definately post up the outcome of the tuning and tell you if it really is the PROM's fault still.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Well, got the car back today and pulled the intake.....guess what? Oil all over the intake gasket where it was supposed to be sealed up. It was all wet around the bottom half of every intake port. Looked like it was lined up correctly based on the gasket compression marks, but it was still soaked in oil. I never used RTV on the intake ports, so I'm gonna try a new gasket with RTV and see how it runs. If worse comes to worse, and that doesn't fix it, I'll blame the chip, but this makes me feel one step closer to driving it. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

By the way, anyone else use RTV on the intake ports?? are you supposed to?

spills

iTrader: (9)

Only time I use RTV on intakes are on the front and rears of the valley. I use GM intake gaskets for my Vortecs, they've worked good for me over the years. Only time Ive heard of people using RTV on the gaskets is when they want the gasket to stay in place while they install the manifold. My gaskets have little tabs that hold them in place while installing, so again I can't say that Ive used any RTV on the gaskets themselves.

By any chance do you have any pictures of it all looks like? Did it look like oil was being slung up from the valley into the intake ports? Id take a straight edge to both the intake manifold and the heads (intake port side) to make sure nothing is either warped or machined improperly.

EDIT: I think this has already been answered, but has the block been decked at all, or the heads been shaved? It almost sounds like if the block or heads have been shaved/decked, it would throw off the alignment of the manifold. You said the compression marks were still visible, does it look like the top of the ports made a better impression than the bottoms of the ports?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That doesn't sound abnormal. If you have compression marks and no oil is in the runner that tells me the seal was fine. The whole bottom of the intake is probably splattered with oil. Mine always are.

I only use RTV around the water ports, and chinawall.

-- Joe

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The runners were browned in color and they are brand spankin new heads. Also, there are compression marks, but it's clear that oil was getting past where it was supposed to be sealed, since the face of the intake ports on the manifold were all oily, and the gasket was covered in oil where the manifold was supposed to be sealed to it. If there is a little bit of a clearance issue, it is minor, and it looks like a little RTV should fix it. I'm still gonna straightedge everything and measure the top and bottom of the manifol to head clearance with a feeler gauge. The gaskets I used are garbage and it's a design I've never used before. At least I can eliminate the intake after all this.

By the way, heads are new and have not been touched, and the block is not decked. The ports physically lined up perfectly, just looks like a bit of a mismatch that is very minor. And sorry, no pics, but I don't think I could get a good one even if I tried of the gaskets.

jsmith929

Because when mine was doing it the idle was super rough ,had oil marks at all the intake ports on bottom of the intake .I checked the base of the intake seal by spraying a little carb cleaner to see if idle would pick up and seemed perfectly sealed up after reseating the intake 3 times .Took intake off had it checked and sure enough it had been milled.I didn't know what I was looking at when I bought the intake,I put the stock one back on and he problem went away.It just sounded like pretty much the same problem .
Joe

AC

iTrader: (3)

Eeek...no carb cleaner. that just makes a mess. Propane from a handheld torch works just as well. Just don't smoke around it while you're doing it.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

any updates?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

As a matter of fact, yes. I just got the car back together today and gooped the hell outta the intake ports, and guess what? It runs now. This manifold is garbage, and I WILL be contacting TPIS about this monday morning. I feel like I've wasted so much money, and I really can't recommend this intake to anyone anymore, whether it makes good power or not. I'd sacrifice that to have quality.

Put a ton of RTV on intake ports, and car ran beautifully for the whole day and after some heavy revving and stepping on it, I think the RTV is starting to come loose, and the popping is slowly coming back. I will be getting the edlbrock unit shortly.

vwdave

There is some kid on here who had a running HSR setup that he's pulling off for a carb, you can probably get that for pretty cheap. He's pulling it off because he actually has to tune it, so, "Imma pull it off and put on a carb."

What a tard.

e; https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...ghlight=people

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

He is a tard if he really thinks like that. People today honestly believe that swapping out jets, and idle mixture screws are the keys to tuning a carburetor. There's so much more to it than that, and in the end, it's the exact same tuning procedure as with EFI....

spills

iTrader: (9)

I think the argument about carb vs EFI will get about as far as turbos vs s/c. Fact remains is that no matter what damn setup you choose, you have to tune it!! If he thinks that swapping to a carb setup will render him a "tuned" motor out of the box, he will be sorely mistaken.

On the other hand, tuning carbs can be a little more cheaper price wise than with EFI, maybe the reason why some tend to stick with them. You dont need a laptop, $400 ECU, WB O2 setup, etc.

Back to the topic at hand, can you verify completely that it is the intake, and not the heads? Is this a fresh motor build, or was there another top end on the motor prior to the MR swap (I dont remember what you had said about the previous motor)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That depends though on just how far your going to take it. If your looking to maximize performance with you carburetor like I am, with a blow-thru T-88 turbo charger setup, a WideBand O2 setup becomes mandatory. Tuning the carb can be cheaper yes, but if you don't know how to tune EFI, then you honestly don't know how to tune carburetors either, because it's the same exact thing, just a different method of achieving the same goal....

Anyways, back to the topic at hand....

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The motor was a perfect running L98, bored .30 over. Stock heads on it when it last ran. I know many people with the trick flow heads and have NEVER heard one bad thing about them. On the other hand, I also know first hand more than one person who has had mini ram issues!! Thats not good. I am 100% positive it is the intake now. I gooped the hell out of the ports, and when I first fired the car up, it ran great....took it for a short drive and it ran very strong. As soon as I started revving it and trying to get on the gas more, the problem started to come back, obviously because the RTV couldn't hold up anymore.

spills

iTrader: (9)

so this was the first time the heads and intake were run correct and both were bought new? (from what Im understanding). Im not saying that either TFS or TPIS is better than the other goes as far as quality control (mainly because Ive never used them), but I would contact both companies and tell them what's going on and see what they say. Just because you gooped the intake ports doesnt mean that the the intake is machined incorrectly, the intake surface on the heads could me slightly off as well. Id still say investigate the matter a little bit before you conclude that it is infact the intake. Either way, I know it sucks and I feel for ya, God knows Id probably be as upset as you had that happened to me

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I am throwing a carbed set up on it in the next few days only because it's sitting in my garage right now. Edelbrock torker manifold and 750 holley carb. All I need is a regulator and if it runs with that set up, it is MOST definately the mini ram. It wont be permanant, but it will tell me for a fact that it's the mini ram. I already know it is, but I want the car up and running. I had a straightedge up to the heads and intake and both were flat as could be, but the intake is not sealing at the bottoms of the ports. The angle is slightly off I believe, and Looking at the gaskets closely shows that the top is pressing more than the bottom.

AC

iTrader: (3)

whitedevil, oh c'mon....a little JB Weld on the bottom of your intake and your good to go. What you're describing for the impression / seal off issue is something I've heard a few times over the years...when I say few I'm saying maybe 3-4, you being one of them. That's the hole reason I went bigmouth and not-miniram, although my bigmouth is just as succetable to the issue as the bottom of the mini-ram. Good luck in getting it all straightened out.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Oh I've heard the stories too, haha. I just talked to Jim at TPIS today and I'm gonna send it in so they can mock it up on an engine and see how it looks, then either maybe replace it or mill it. If they can't fix it the first time around, I am done with it, and will move on. Enough is enough, and 4 months of driving time lost to a manifold is BS.

AC

iTrader: (3)

I will say that TPIS agreeing to do what they're doing is sweet. That right there puts some points back on to their recent perceived reputation. I can understand all the variables that go into aftermarket pieces. Your talking multiple surfaces, angles, etc that need to be in alignment for things to work. All those variables are in control of many different companies, head mfg'ers, block (GM), intake, etc. I'm sorry to hear TPIS's piece may be at fault but atleast their willing to take a look at it and offer a possible solution. Try getting that outta EdelB....probably a bit harder....

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That can be either the heads, block, or intake, not just the intakes fault.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I understand that but the heads are untouched trick flow heads and the block is a 350 bored .30 over. I don't believe it's decked, but I guess it MAY be, but the fact is, the manifold companies should design thier intakes to not be so precise that the engine has to be a factory untouched block with perfect heads on it just to work. There should be a little bit of room in thier just incase you do have to deck the block or the heads. I have had so many freinds with head work and decking done and none have ever had intake seal issues. I am currently on my 5th engine build, and the first 4 were perfect. I've seen a ton of manifolds and the ports on them are slightly smaller than the ports on the heads, to allow for slight missalignment, or decking. The ports on the mini ram are the identicle size as the ones on my heads, which means you pretty much have to have it lined up dead nuts to work, and then it still doesn't mate at the bottom of the ports. By all means, if anyone on here has had to shave an intake because thier block was decked, let me know, but I have never heard of that before. The amount of metal you take off is hair thin when that is done.

I understand also that the mini ram is an excellent power making intake if it works, but I wish everyone would stop protecting it so much, and just see that people have had problems with it but not with a HSR or SR. Obviously thier are many instances where people have experienced problems and it HAS been the mini rams fault.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have seen TFS heads as well as others have issues as well. That is why its called modifying.

I have had to shave intakes on more than one occasion due to the heads/block being milled. The TPI intake that is on my van right now is milled.

Having a port mis-match doesn't mean its the manifolds fault. Its a combination of the manifold and the heads.

I just hate when someone changes 2 or 3 things and then decides it is ONE parts problem. Its not the mini rams fault nor the TFS heads. Its a fault in the combination.

Are you using the proper intake gaskets? I know for a fact that the Felpro permaseal will not seal worth a crap on a 350 with aluminum heads and intake. I have been down that road before. They are too thin and hard. Stock GM intake gaskets work fine.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Yea it just sucks because I have many freinds with this combo with different intakes and thiers all run great. The first gaskets I had on it WERE the felpro permaseals. Now I have Mr.gasket autozone ones on it now, and they are the correct size for my heads and manifold. The only thing I havn't tried yet are stock ones but I just feel like it still wont work. Seems like something is off too much. for a gasket to take up the slack.

Sinister87s

iTrader: (4)

Whitedevil, I feel your pain. I just opened this thread yesterday in the TPI section before seeing this thread,https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...r-miniram.html after reading this thread I now know its my intake as well, I also talked to Clay at TPIS yesterday and he told me I can send in my intake and they would mock it up to see if is a tooling problem in the intake. The problem is I have had this intake installed on a previous setup w/113 heads and a 1205 gasket which I never got it running right, I always thought it was a vacuum leak from the intake causing way to much fuel and low vacuum, also a burning red catalytic converter. I did the normal vacuum tests and did find some leaks but I never did the propane in the breather test. With my new setup you can visually see at least a 1/8th" gap between the heads and intake runners. I also questioned this intake from day one because when I bought it(new from TPIS) it had a hole on the flange next to the runner, which I called them about but they told me as long as it didn't go into a runner it should be fine, which after paying over 1200.00 thought I should be receiving better quality. I can email pics if anyone here wants to post them. This whole deal has pissed me off after spending more money on the AFR heads different cam and now to find out my 1200.00 intake is an expensive paper weight, sorry for the lengthy rant, but this is the first thread I have seen the legitimizes my opinions.