F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Okay guys that it! Im done with this TPI crap! Last night at the drag strip a 4 door Olds Intrige wanted to run me after he saw me make my 15.62 pass because he figgured I was "The slowest car there" besides him. Dont get me wrong I know 15.62 isnt bad, but damnit its not good either.

On the Exhaust:
I want to use the Areochamber cat back
Factory Duel cats w/cutouts
and the Edylbrock TES system

Cam:
LT4 HOTCAM KIT .525 lift eventually, ill get the 1.6 rockers for now until I can afford the head work for fitment. Which brings me to another quesion I had. What are the stock 91 GTA TPI 350 cam specs? But back on subject...

So which intake do you all recomend? I was either going to buy

HLY-7540 Holley stealth ram or
LT1intake.com intake

Which one will make more power under the curve and such? LT1intake.com stated a near 50 hp gain over ditching the TPI but that was with a different cam. And I want to stick with my stock stall and gears (I dont want to touch the car at all to be honest). But im kinda stuck under $500 to so these are my two options. Paycheck just aint that big.

In advance

F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Bump, no one here has experience with both?

P.S. I have searched, results were inconclusive.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

Hold on there. Before you do any modifications to your engine, you should make sure it is running right. My stock '85 Camaro Z28 w/LB9 and 700r4 is posting faster 1/4 miles times. 15.59 @ 87. Not trying to dog you or anything, but you should be running mid to high 14's with a stock L98.

F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Im at 8000ft density take a second off my time and thats about what I would be at sea level.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The LT1 will flow a little better, but i'd run more cam and converter. the HSR is an ok intake. more for looks. The LT1 install is more of a pita, but if done right it will work well.

Why don't you hold off, save up, and build an engine..

-- Joe

F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Well I got a built 406, but the intake is going on my DD the GTA. Thats another reason I have to keep it cheap; I have a huge project going elsewhere.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

Didn't read your sig there. damn 8000'? that only 3K' lower than the highest peak around my area.

in that case I say HSR unless you can do the work yourself to get the LT1 to fit.

Sprayed92

Good luck getting that lt1 intake to seal. Personally hsr all the way it will make more power up top.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's BS.

The HSR isn't a performance intake to begin with.

-- Joe

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Like THAT wasn't as predictable as the sunrise. Everyone already knows that you've got a woody against the HSR, your act is getting tired already...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

New guy,

We've covered this - for years, the HSR is not a performance intake. Get over it.

-- Joe

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

"New guy" - heh. I first started coming to this board when I bought my car, right around '97 or so... I was here when Dirk was running things, as well as when a bunch of people split off & formed 3GO. (Not that any of that's anything to be super proud about... )

I can see where I didn't state my exact point, so I'll try to do a better job of stating it more clearly - from all I've seen so far, you come into these threads, dump on anyone who's even thinking about an HSR, but never offer up an actual argument, or facts to back up what you're saying.

Can you make more torque with the SuperRam? Sure, once you get through the well-known teeth-gnashing aggravation of the installation (that's caused it to earn the nickname of "Super{PITA}Ram") - and if you're not one of the many who have been bitten by ACCEL's documented quality-control issues.

Sure, the MiniRam will make more power, but last time I checked it also cost about 160% of the cost of the HSR ($800+ vs $500+). And neither the HSR or the MR have provisions for EGR, so you can't even claim emissions-legality (unless you use the external setup from a Vette & have an inspector who might be willing to be a little flexible - which certainly won't apply to everyone). And to take full advantage of the MR, you'll need to be sure that you have deeper gears, a better cam, better heads, etc. If you don't, then there's really no point to having the MR over the HSR, unless you just want to say "Look, I spent a lot more money for effectively nothing!".

LTR intakes are mediocre to good to very-good (the 'FIRST' intake might be "great", I don't have enough info on it, but I've heard good things about it). But not everyone wants all of that torque down low - and I personally don't care for all of the places where parts fit together & offer the possibility of developing vacuum leaks.

Personally, I'm not trying to claim that the HSR is the "be all & end all" of EFI induction units. I don't believe that it is (given my choice of anything out there, I'd take a single-plane with a carb-style TB), but I do believe that it offers some advantages that make it an appropriate choice for a good number of people. Based on what I've read from you, you discount any and all possibility of this, but offer nothing to support this opinion.

From what I've read here, & seen on friends' cars, the HSR offers a significant improvement over the stock TPI, both in ETs & seat-of-the-pants "fun factor" - and it does it at a price point that allows you to afford some of the supporting hardware as well. If you're wanting a decent daily-driver/weekend-warrior type car that can be competitive on the street, but don't want to take out a 2nd mortgage for a *****-out thinly-disguised racecar, then (IMHO) the HSR does a good job of filling that niche. (And if you ARE looking to build a *****-out, get-every-last-tenth racecar, then why the hell would you start with a Gen-I engine, when Gen-IIIs & Gen-IVs are so affordable now, & mod-for-mod, will blow the earlier designs into the weeds??)

I'd originally intended to add a couple more points, but then I previewed this message & saw how long it'd gotten (which is way longer than I'd intended). I'm done now. I believe that the HSR is a good choice for some folks, I'm sure that you disagree - but if all you offer is snarky comments, then (with all due respect) perhaps you'll forgive the rest of us if we don't assign them a whole lot of credibility.

(Not a personal slam on you - in fact I removed something that came too close to an ad hominem attack - just wanting to point out where I'm coming from & suggest that derogatory comments without anything behind them reflect poorly, & are not in any way helpful...)

AT4 T/A

Come on guys! Can't we just build a fire, roast some marshmallows, and sing Kum Ba Ya?

This is supposed to be FUN!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Flip a coin and choose one. I put the HSR on my car since I got one in a trade with my old car, so I put it on my 305. I never dyno'd the car with the TPI so I am not sure if it added anything, but the car dyno'd 195/273 to the wheels, which isn't bad for a 165K mile peanut cammed LB9 (car was originally an auto).

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

OK, Let me make my points really clear, since you have taken the time express yours:

The HSR Is about $560, plus you need a fuel line kit (which I'm told costs about $120), so figure $680 to get an HSR.

The miniram is $895, and the fuel rail kit is $355. So figure $1250 for a
Miniram.

Now how do I justify the extra cost?

* The HSR is too tall for a lot of applications, the Miniram fits like stock
* The HSR has been prone to leaks, the Miniram has not
* The HSR flows 275 CFM, the Miniram flows 282 CFM
* The HSR doesn't fit a 1206 port, the Miniram does
* The HSR is based on a 70's street ram Manifold, which was designed for
'looks' in hot rod applications (search on it). the Miniram was designed for PERFORMANCE.

I'm not sure why you brought up the super ram. That's another intake I'm not too impressed by.

You made a comment about singleplane intakes, and I'm glad you did. I've run
2 different singleplane setups, one I made, one I bought from holley. (it's their performance alternative to the HSR, btw). I would have ran the singleplane intake on the Corvette, but it wouldn't clear my hood, so I went to the next best thing, which was a Miniram.

I've also expressed my dislike for the way the LT1 conversion works, over the past few years. Until I started seeing setups done that were not that bad. tpi_roc's setup was really pretty, and for a job I was originally against, I'm now all for it and helping a friend do one. I think the LT1 is one step down from the miniram, but a step up from the HSR.

I think i've pretty much explained myself as much as possible in all of the sticky's, which I guess nobody reads before making posts like this. I guess this is my way of explaining my 'snarky' comments. I've been over this, as well as other members. I'm not an expert, but I have spent a lot of money figuring out what works, and what don't.

-- Joe

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Well, it looks like the HSR makes more power than the miniram if you spend the exact same amount of money on the 2 builds.
HSR + a 150shot = more power than just the miniram.

thirdgen88

$560 is after you've bought the fuel rails... The manifold is between $309 and $360 (depending on non-vortec or vortec), and the fuel rails are around $170-$190.. So you're only up to around $550 for the whole she-bang...

Blownz28man

iTrader: (2)

Haha like Zepher's outlook. Buy the HSR and a 150 shot. You'll be all good.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

He is talking about the AN lines from the stock hard lines to the Fuel Rail on the HSR.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

Running AN lines cost me about $50 for braided lines- just gotta shop around.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Ya, mine technically didn't cost me anything since I used left over braided hose and hose ends from my friends 82 that we built 4 years ago.
I did have to pay $20 to fab up the adaptor for pipe to AN that you see on the end of the rubber hose as Jegs was out of stock on the hardline pipe to AN fitting.

1989formula355

iTrader: (2)

well...at least my hsr looks cool.

19doug90

the hsr is cost effective and seriously out flows stock

HOWEVER
lets get back to the car that started this post

if your car is already ******* it a bit because of your altitude, and youre not upgrading anything else on the car in the near future, i would stay away from ALL of these intakes.

The tpi unit makes awesome torque all the way from idle to 4500 rpms, any of these other intakes are going to be making power from 2700-6000 give or take. If you have a motor (cam and heads) that are designed to make power from idle up to 4500-5000 tops, your car will not only barely be any faster at the track if at all, but it will feel SO much slower from stoplight to stoplight.

In your shoes with a limited budget you said you havent done any work to the car at all?

Best bang for your buck is definitly going to be the hooker comp or super comp headers, along with a nice mandrel bent catback system. If you have to keep it emissions legal with air tubes theres a bunch of options but they all cost about twice as much as the non air tube headers so id just ditch them if ya can.

If you do exhaust keep note of the fact that certain styles of flowmaster have awful flow, i personally would try to get somethign with a straight through design, not all of the metal baffles. And if you have to run a cat (which we all should) spend the extra couple bucks to get a high flow cat, definitly worth a few HP. Magnaflow actually has this really awesome design theyve come out with called SPUN converters, its a super compact cat so it doesnt take up as much space under the car.

Save doing an intake for when youre making a motor that can actually use that top end power, youll need it for the low end you give up.

hope this helped

F-Body Demon

iTrader: (1)

Hey Doug, i've got my hands on a set of 2210 hookers and a smog pump delete . She's getting there pretty quick to be honest. I acutally have a dual cat system so im not sure if I have to upgrade them just yet. And I have been drooling over the aerochamber by hooker but im not sure if it will work with the dual cat (I just need to search).

But do you think after the exhaust system it would be worth it to upgrade the intake? I was actually thinking about the miniram for the future. I may just start saving here soon.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

force air in to that TPI, she'll breathe

19doug90

Flat out, no bones about it, you will lose gobs of low end torque, with any intake you go with. Your car will lose all of its fun to drive factor even though youll probably be trapping about the same ET's with a little more top end power.

the stealth ram is a great intake for a 350, with a 180cc head, but if youre going to step up to a 200cc head most of them use the 1206 gasket which the stealth ram has to be heavily modified to work with.
in wich case the mini-ram is a great choice all though ive heard some mixed reviews on their quality control over there, and its stupidly expensive, and is basically designed after the lt1 intake anyways. I think the LT4 intake was actually a fair bit better then the LT1, so if you can find one of those it might be worth having it converted, im really not sure someone will have to chime in there.

My sugestion on a budget would be to get whichever intake you choose, and then find a cam something like 220/224, 112 lsa but not more then .500 lift with 1.5 rockers. If you put a cam such as that in it'll move your powerband up to around 2700-5500 rpms, but you wont have to touch the stock heads because any more and youll start to get into valve float with the crappy springs, not to mention the heads dont flow much better then .500 anyways.

Combine that with a higher stall torque converter to match your powerband and youd have a very low 13 second car (at sea level) no problem, not to mention other then then the intake youre only at about another 1000 bucks in parts for a converter and cam, possibly a fair bit less

Then just upgrade your injectors and put a small nitrous shot on it to dip you into the 12's. And then start saving for a 383 for when your motor blows

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Just cam your car and siamese the base, that's free and you can always change intakes later. If you were 8000ft altitude how were you STILL the second slowest car there? Seems like everything should suffer at that height. What was the competition running?

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Most 200cc heads are actually closer to a 1205 gasket which is a good match for the HSR. 1206 is for the really big stuff. I have a set of ported TFS 195s that spec out at 203cc after being port matched to a 1205 and having the HSR port matched to them was cake.

19doug90

well you just made my day, i hadnt put a ton of research into it i apologize that was just the impression i had

if i can run most 200cc heads with this intake then im quite happy

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

The HSR has always been very close to a 1205 out of the box but the first few years it was out it couldn't be matched to a 1206 (220cc range) without adding material. However, some of the newest castings can even be opened up to a 1206 without welding on additional material. The HSR sitting on my car now was cast back in early '03 and there is not much room for porting. I heard on this site and stealthram.com that the castings had improved over the years so I bought a new casting last year to get ported for my new combo and it had a LOT more material to work with then the one that is currently on my car.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

My HSR swap cost me about $650 (have all the receipts around here somewhere) with shipping and tax for all the fittings I needed to buy. This was with braided stainless hoses, 90* swivel end AN fittings, the adapters to fit to the hard lines.....etc.

Everything. Compared to a stock TPI, or even a modded TPI the HSR has everything to offer for the budget minded gear head.

Little known fact, TPI doesn't really offer any more low end grunt compared to a LT1 intake, or similarly a HSR. TPI offers MID range grunt at the expense of top end.

The only real issue that would sway me away from a HSR would be the intake height on a Firebird hood. I was able to fit my HSR under the hood of my GTA without cutting anything, though it did rub slightly on the insulation in some spots.
______________________________

BTW, if he's trapping 90mph at 8000ft thats not bad, what would the altitude corrected mph be? If its around 95mph then its fine for a stock L98.

shaggy56

Jerrywho's Edelbrock intake flows about 290cfm and its still tpi. He discovered the choke point of the intake and modified it. You guys might want to wait up a little because supposedly BBK is bringing the TPI back from the dead. If you havent seen the BBK thread in the TPI section you can see they are working diligently on the new intake.

You can see how Jerry modified the Edelbrock intake to flow 290 cfm here. Its flowing more than an extrude honed intake. Everyone is hoping BBK takes the restriction into consideration for the new intake.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...-manifold.html

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Another consideration would be nitrous. I bet nitrous would REALLY wake up a car at high elevations. With a 150 shot at that elevation you should be able to go from the bottom to the top of the pack. The nitrous should contain the same ammount of oxygen regardless of elevation, granted it won't be crammed into the motor the same as down here. You should do it in the name of science if for no other reason .

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Why not save up some $$ and go LS1. Even in stock form the LS1 will make more hp that and HSR or LT1. If you have the budget and patience to save up......

matt_p

LS1's are nice. But the lump price to buy one is a hard pill to swallow.

shocker89bird

Well it sounds like with your altitude you are fighting an up hill battle. I have had huge sucess with my stealth ram since day one. i had one of the first ones when the had sealing issues and sent it back to Holley fro a new one at no cost. I did however have a mild cam already and port matched stock heads with a 3 angle valve job to help flow as well. It was a totally different feeling being able to rev to 6000k and still be pulling hard. Liek some of the other memebers mentioned you would benifit more form opening up things like the exhaust first or if this isn't your daily driver doing some port matching to the intake pieces and heads yourself.

There is more fab work that needs to be done with the LT1 intake in my opinion but the power numbers are good as well. These intakes are more for down the road though. Either way I think you would be happy but both would cost more than 500 with gaskets and fuel lines and everyhing.

jack harrison

i personaly think tpi is great! ive run an 11.7 @ 118. every one told me to get rid of the tpi and stick a carb on there. i love that ive proved 'em all wrong. maybe i have the quickest tpi in the UK? two cents

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

What did you do to your car to get it to run those numbers Jack? Did you modify the TPI to make it behave like a shorter runner intake? To stay on subject do you feel you could run faster now if you swapped to an alternative intake?

jack harrison

im afraid i cheated!! 150 shot of gas!! BUT it is a 350 tpi with edlebrock heads, crane cams cam, 1.6 rr,afpr, hedman headers, borla exhust, rebuilt 700r4, slp runners, ported plenum and 58 mm tb. 13.4 @ 106 is my best without gas.

shocker89bird

Spray will do that haha.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i did my HSR swap last weekend and i must say i do like the feeling. lost alittle low end, but picked up nicely from 4500-5500. it will need abit of a tune to get the air fuel right, but so far its nice.

I also converted a LT1 manifold myself and must say it took some time to get it to work right. lots of time to setup the bolt holes and distributor and all the extra stuff to get it to work right. Unfortunately, I never ran it but its definately a time consuming project but at the same time also very doable with the right tools.

either intake is nice, its just i hear the HSR will not support much more than 400whp, while the LT1 will definately do that. its probly due to the 3inch runners compared to the 6 or so inchers the HSR has

fun Pain

I believe, in both (personally went with a HSR), They just allow you to breath higher. The tuning is KEY... I will say that again TUNING IS KEY.
Neither are that great without it, (if not dangerous) for our gen 1's. Make sure you are pretty good at tuning, and have a WB setup, If you figure in tuning the "right" ways, That costs more then the intake you choose.

$300-$500 LT1,or $300-$600 HSR

$200-400 for WB setup with reading equipment (gauge),
Ostrich/ adaptors $250
or
MegaSquirt $400

And ofcourse with either your looking at bigger injectors (more power, up higher)

there $150-$500

So my point is, any two "exact setups" will be only measured by their tunning. A guy that just bandaided (fp and timing adjustments) his LT1, AFR, CC306 cam bad boy will get wiped up and down the track and at the pump, by a factory 350 with a Steath Ram, that has been tuned "properly".

Just Saying this because no one has made this point....YET

BadSS

The big single plane intakes can make well over 700 horses on a N/A SBC and their runners are around 5.5". The runner's cross-sectional area in the HSR is smaller than the big single planes and true race inspired dual carbed intakes. The smaller area and port exit capability is going to be what limits the crazy HP numbers with the HSR,,, not the runner length. Still,,, I'll take the StealthRam over the shorter intake systems like the LT1 or MiniRam on any engine capabable of making 550 horse or less with an automatic behind it.

onfire

Why not the super ram or even the first system? Both these systems will retain your low end torque as well. They both have egr provisions which neither mini nor the stealth has.

You can also port the sr and the first to flow very nicely in the top end. I know that Badss was having some success in opening up the first system.

If I where you I would consider these two mani s as well.

Rabi C.

J's T/A

iTrader: (2)

I find the threads for LT1 intake or HSR intake interesting, if you do a bit of searching at cz28.com in the lt1tech/advanced tech section all you see from those serious about making power is complaining about the lt1 intake and wanting a hsr or single plane intake conversion. I am no technical expert here but it is worth looking over there to see exactly what they have to say about the LT1 intake.

For your situation, I would do the exhaust first, and then go for the HSR and then build an engine with better cylinder heads and more cam.

Camaroz29

iTrader: (3)

Things tend to be backwards here. All of the big hp LT1 guys use converted SBC heads yet here on this board you have people trying to rig up a production LT1 head to work with a standard SBC.

J's T/A

iTrader: (2)

It is a bit of a head scratcher I would never convert anything from gen 2 to a gen 1 small block. If I could do it again I would go big inch (427-454) gen 1 sbc with aftermarket fuel injection, new generation stuff is nice but for big hp the gen 1 can still deliver just fine.

matt_p

But if you are gonna go that big on a gen I you need fully cnc'd 220+cc heads or 18 degree heads. Not cheap at all

J's T/A

iTrader: (2)

I don't want to thread hijack but you can get the power on a gen 1 for less money. The engine I mentioned is what I would do, I have sufficiently messed around with different setups to know what I should of done the first time and saved some coin, but that is for my specific situation..

back to my original recommend, do exhaust first, if not then you are essentially taking a funnel and turning it the wrong way around.