vernw

iTrader: (2)

Will do, thanks! (still laughing about the Exxon Valdez comment)

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Well, I've got the intake off, and unfortunately the gasket looks pretty good. No obvious problems noticed. All the lifters look good too, none stuck or anything like I had happen initially when I got this motor. One bolt was pretty loose, but that was on the passenger (richer) side. So I guess I'll clean everything up and start re-assembling it tomorrow. I'll also also move the PCV to the throttle body and leave the charcoal canster unplugged for now. I'll also swap sides with the SVO injectors and replace their o-rings.

Does anyone know for sure what the two extra ports on the runners are for? Is that part of the EGR system? My heads aren't drilled for EGR so I'm running a block off plate. Just wondering if I should plug those with RTV on each end of each side to be sure there aren't any leaks from that. Both of the plugs in the bottom of the plenum on my setup are in place as well. Just trying to cover all the bases....

vernw

iTrader: (2)

I may have found something while cleaning stuff up to get a good gasket mating surface....

It looks like the bolts I was using for the two lower plenum bolts on each side of the motor may have been bottoming out before tightening up. In which case I could have had a large vacuum leak on either or both sides, just possibly one side was worse than the other. The RTV may have sealed one side and not the other or some variation thereof. So if I can get it back together tomorrow we may find out - sure hope this is the source of my problem!

vernw

iTrader: (2)

UPDATE - - -

The two lower bolts on the runners mounted on the passenger's side of the motor, which are the ones that feed the cylinders on the driver's side of the motor, were definitely bottoming out. There is no way the runners on that side of the motor should have tightly sealed. If it was leaking, that would mean more air was getting into the odd cylinders, so the narrow band O2 sensor would add more gas to make it stoich. That in turn would make the passenger's side even cylinders too rich.

The lower holes in the intake on that side are the problem. They're deep enough, but about half way down into the hole the threads change! So the bolts were bottoming out at the thread change instead of going all the way into the hole. I ran a tap into both holes all the way to the bottom, and now I have that side tightening up like it should. Then I found out one lower runner bolt on the other side of the motor has a shorter hole than all the other ones, so potentially there was a small leak on that side as well. I've got all the threads fixed up now, just need to get a couple of bolts tomorrow and then I'll be able to start putting it back together. Hopefully this is the source of my problems. If not, I have no f*cking idea what to do next.....

Wheel Spin

Dang Vern,

What a headache!

Kudos to you for following it through, and for keeping the thread going with your progress.

We now have to know (assuming you have found the root of the problem), is this the original block? Were the threads truly different, or all gunked up due to bolt length, ie., threads oxidising due to no contact or excess thread sealer previously?

Hope you got it.

Lo-tec

5 Gallons of gas and a match....super-ram BBQ!!

Seriously, it sounds like you found the source of the problem!!

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I think he was closing in on that solution

vernw

iTrader: (2)

No problem with the updating, if this solves the problem it may hopefully help someone else in the future. I've gotten enough help on various things, it might be nice to return the favor a little bit....

The block I'm using is a late 70's 4 bolt main hi nickel 010 block. But that doesn't matter in this case. The runners bolt to the SuperRam aluminum lower intake manifold, not the block or heads (which are cast iron Sportsman IIs). And the threads were actually different, no oxidation was present. Looks like someone ran an SAE threaded bolt in there at some time all the way to the bottom, the came back and either ran a tap part way in for the metric threads (M8x1.25) or just forced a metric bolt in there part of the way. Regardless, I ran an M8-1.25 tap to the bottom of all four lower runner bolts and it tightens up fine now.

I also lowered the mounting posts for the ruel rail since I'm using SVO 30# injectors and they're a little shorter. Now they will bottom out in the injector bungs and still lock into the fuel rail with the the GM factory clips. Was probably fine not bottomed out in the bungs, but I figure this can't hurt anything either. Now I just need to decide whether to install my Hydra-rev and real comp retro-fit lifters before I put it back together. Suggestions?

ANd don't go cancelling that BBQ just yet.....

Floor guy

Vern, I apologize for not seeing this thread earlier. I have run across the bolt bottoming problem more than a few times. I would have suggested it. I just installed another superram for a friend that drove up to pa from atlanta. His mechanic did the same thing and did not find it. Chip was reburned 4 times to deal with lean condition that this caused. It is fixed now and he is a happy guy. I bet $1 you found your problem.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Sure hope so! Appreciate the vote of confidence, Floor Guy. Just to play it safe though, I'm swapping injectors from side to side as well....

Do you happen to know how the EGR passages in the plenum work? Reason I ask is I'm running a block off plate (heads aren't drilled for it). The gasket set always covers one port on the runners and not the other side. Should I be doing anything special with them? Blocking them off w/RTV or just leaving them alone? I've also got both block off plugs installed inside the plenum. Should I leave the EGR passages open on the bottom of the runners where they connect to the intake manifold, or seal them off?

I'm going to put the PCV valve intake point back on where it originally was. I checked out the ports in the intake and it is evenly distributed to all cylnders (there's a passage under the intake that goes to a small hole in each intake runner).

Sure appreciate the help and info everyone is giving me. It may be Wednesday night or Thursday before I'll get to re-assemble the motor. Came down with a flu bug yesterday afternoon while I was test fitting everything to make sure it would all go on tight. Still fighting it too.....

DeWynter

I just read the whole thread here and I was wondering if you have the original top cover for the super ram or the updated one. The updated one is thicker and has a ribbed top. Be carful if you have the original as it is prone to leaking along the sides, which may in turn help cause the problem you are having. I'm really happy I saw this thread as I'm only a month away from doing this same project. Who did your tune? Are you running the DFI engine managment system with the super ram? Have you ever considered converting to an optical distributer to run SFI rather than the batch? I am going to run the DFI or a modified LT1 (96) comp and harness with the optical distributer(for crank and cam signals) so I can run SFI. Sory to here about all the problems you have had, and I will be checking everything on mine before it goes on.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

I've got the ribbed top version. I'm running the GM 7730 ECM and the tuning is D-I-Y (me with a lot of help from here and a local guy). I bought a Formato chip for $300 when I first installed the motor and SR, and after several data logs and chips reburned and mailed to me, I gave up on that and wrote off the $300 to a bad idea and bought the gear to do it myself. I'm looking to possibly upgrade to a full forged LT1 stroker setup with the SFI over the next few months or year as well. Never thought about converting the current motor to the LT1 opti, etc., I've got the 97 harness, CPU, accessories, etc. in my garage as we speak....

DeWynter

You can but a conventional distributer with the cam and crank siganls. I was thinking of going this way with mine if I cant find a good DFI system. I want to stay with MAF rather than straight SD.
Gen 7 Distributors

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I want to stay with a GM ECM set up, after fighting a Holley Commander 950 system and their flaky (and expensive long distance) telephone suport, I got soured on 3rd party EFI systems. I've got access to an LT1 block, may have to use it to go SFI. Just concerned about the lack of support and knowledge like we have here if I do.

AS FOR MY SR PROBLEM - the intake is going back on this afternoon. Should know if I found the problem for sure by tomorrow. Starting to feel confident that I have though....

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Vern if you need help with the C950, I would be glad to lend assistance. I have installed 5 of them and own 2 of them. They can have their moments, but for the price they work pretty well.

DeWynter

Hope it goes together this time

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Good luck, At least you did find something that could be causing it this time.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the well-wishes, I hope it does too!

And Dave - I got rid of the Suburban with the Commander 950 about 3 ago, got fed up messing with it on a GMPP 454HO. Appreciate the offer though!

Now back to the garage/driveway.....

JERRYWHO

Please tell me how switching C11 and C12 at the ECM will check the harness. All you did was test the injector driver in the ECM. To test each side of the harness you have to switch the plugs at the injectors from side to side. If you have higher resistance on the drivers side moving the connection at the ECM will not change it you are just moving to the other side of the ECM.

Jerry

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Well, you're probably right about that, intent was to see if the problem moved and it didn't. Could still be a harness problem I suppose. Then again, the problem MAY be solved, just don't know yet due to raining and unplanned (by me anyway) family committments this weekend. Car is still stuck sitting in the driveway. Need to shop vac out the top of the heads, install a couple of rocker arms, flush some oil through it, and fire it up and adjust the valves and set the base timing while checking for gas and coolant leaks. Then I'll change the oil to make sure all the collant is out, fire it up, let if go closed loop, and read the two gauges....

vernw

iTrader: (2)

UPDATE -

Just as I got up from the dinner table last night to go out to the 'Bird the phone rang - my new daughter-in-law was stranded on the roadside when her 2000 Sonata quit on her. Several hours, a loaner OBDII scanner, a set of plug wires, and a new coil pack later she was driving it home with the confidence compression was good on all 4 cylinders, new plugs and wires, etc.

So not much else got done (got home after midnight).

The lower intake manifold is on, runners on with new gaskets with a light rubbed on coat of RTV on each side of them and sealed tight, plenum is on with the same treatment to it's new gaskets, as is the plenum lid.

The PCV vac source is hooked up to the "normal" position on the SR lower intake (back by #5 cylinder).

EGR block off plate is still on since my heads aren't drilled for it.

Found out thethe extra small passage/tube on the driver's side runners is required for a cold start injector setup (don't have that). Per Lingenfelter, that is supposed to be blocked off if you don't use a CSI so I RTV'ed and leveled that off before mounting the runners (sealed the top of that little tube as well).

Did the same with the little tube/opening on the passenger's side since no EGR either. Just sealed the top on that one.

So now the only passages going out of the plenum and entering the lower intake are the eight runner tubes, and I believe they are all finally sealed up. Hopefully when I turn her over the two WB's will be reading with a few tenths of each other.

Can anyone think of or notice something I may have missed doing here?

I know I'm going to have to re-tune the VE if this solved the problem. The ECM has been dumping too much fuel in due to the NB seeing too much unburned air.

Anything else?

86TA355SR

iTrader: (1)

Vern,
Hope you found your problem, keep us updated. How did you come out?

Drove mine for the first time in over 7 years last friday.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Thanks, I do too!

Got the motor running last night, adjusted the valves where I had a few rockers off to get at the lower plenum bolts, etc. Did not hook up the WB's yet, valve covers installed, AIR cr@p or charcoal canister reconnected, etc., so won't know until tonight how much all this work has benefited anything. I do know that I had to help something - the motor smells like it's running pig rich now (which would make sense if I cut off a bunch of extra/"free" air to the cylinders)....

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Any updates...did you get it fixed?

vernw

iTrader: (2)

UPDATE - STILL A PROBLEM <sigh>
Doesn't look like it I made a major impact on this. Situation is a little better in the difference between sides is a little less, but still at least 0.75 - 1.0 AFR difference between the passenger and driver side of the motor (passenger side being the lower AFR and hence richer side). The two WB's are different brands (so their update rates are slightly different), but the variance between them varies.

I'm truly running out of ideas on this situation. Here's a list of what I've done so far on this problem:

1. Re-sealed the intake manifold (no problems were apparent when dis-assembled)
2. Re-sealed the runners (and used shorter bolts since at least 2 bolts were bottoming out), used a light finger applied RTV sealant to both sides of both the upper and lower runner gaskets.
3. Sealed over and closed off the small tube on the driver's side runner that is supposedly just for a cold start injector per Lingenfelter. Both ends are sealed off on this runner.
4. Sealed over the extra small tube on the passenger side runner which supposedly is for EGR use (my heads are not drilled for EGR).
5. Have swapped WB O2 sensors between sides of the motor to make sure it was not a sensor accuracy problem.
6. Have used 3 different NB sensors (2 AFS-74 and a Bosch)
7. Replaced plugs wires, ohm tested new ones to ensure they're okay
8. Replaced dizzy cap, rotor, and ignition module
9. Have tried running it both with and without the MSD ignition box
10. Ran extra grounds between heads, starter bolt, and battery
11. Ran it with all vac lines disconnected (except for the MAP sensor)
12. Swapped the C11 and C12 ECM connectors to make sure the ECM was seeing the corret in info.
13. Re-adjusted the rocker to between zero and 1/8th turn of the polylock
14. Used a steel straight edge to very no gasket matching surfaces are not "true"
15. Re-calibrated both WB sensors

I'm just about out of ideas and options on this biatch. About all I know to do now is:
A. Pull the headers (again) and look for leaks on them
B. Try a cylinder drop test (again) by pulling distributor wires
C. Checking compression while the headers are off
D. Capping off the PCV valve just to see if it makes a difference
E. Capping off the charcoal canister just to see if it makes a difference
F. Ohm out the injector harness from cylinder # 1 and #2 back to the connections at C11 and C12

Any other ideas?

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Maybe not what you want to hear but....

How does the car drive? I didn't see any mention of that in your past posts. If you have already spent all of this time chasing this problem but driveability doesn't suffer, then tune for the middle ground and be done with it.

I feel your pain and also am a perfectionist and want to get things working 100%, but with all of this time spent chasing this problem you could have swapped intakes by now, or just tuned for the best you can get it.

All I'm saying is sometimes it's not worth the extra stress and headaches.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

You could be right, driveability is fine, but I don't think I'm getting the whole potential out of the set up.

If I tune for the worst (leanest) case and use the WB data from the driver's side, then I'm drowning the other side and not getting everything out of it that I can. Could also be encouraging cylinder wall wash down from too much fuel and risking the block.

If I tune for the average between them, then potentially the driver's side could get too lean and burn a piston. Especially if I install that NOS kit I've been thinking about.

I want the car running "right", and able to do the best it can on a strip as well as serve my daily driver duties.

All that being said - I may end up having to do what you're suggesting simply because I don't have anything else I know I can look for...

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Did you try to get the throttles to close more (mechanically) and let more air in through the IAC?
That seems to be the fix for some other setups, or at least has helped some.
The air flow, when disrupted appears to give better distribution than when there is a direct flow path. Reading a bunch of posts that point in that direction but no conclusive proof. SuperRam may be a different story due to the shape of the plenum.
Butterflies opening slightly different??
Don't know about your TB but maybe doing the tube trick to get IAC air into the center of the plenum.
Just tossing stuff over the wall.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Guess I can try that too, right now at idle they are almost closed - IAC counts are at 35 or so when idling. I've wondered about the IAC extension tube, guess I've read a lot of the same posts :lol Guess it can't hurt to try that as well, although I may pull and check the driver's side header first.

Another thought I have (thanks to ScottL) is to try and run it in open loop for a few minutes and see if the 2 WB's read the same AFR (regardless of what it is) at various load and RPM's. Don't know what it will tell me if they do or don't though, have to think on that. If they don't read the same it might point to a leak still being there somewhere. If they read the same I think that means there is not a leak and something else is going on, just not sure what.

Anyone have any other ideas?

rossholio

The difference could be in the calibration of the wb sensors, as you said they were different, right. You also might want to check for equal exhaust flow/backpressure as one of your cats might be plugged.

Z69

I think you should drop it off at my house on your next trip up north for a few years of trouble shooting.......

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Vern, I have not read all the posts but did you swap the two O2 sensors and see if the problem follows? If so disregard this post.

HiTech5

iTrader: (4)

Vern - I've been following this post for awhile and my question is:
Are you only reading 02 output at idle? What about part and full throttle?

Because of the design of the SuperRam, it may just be that the airflow through the manifold is not completely balanced. I have a MiniRam and I know that the front 4 cylinders run leaner than the back 4. I adjust fuel accordingly. Do you know for a fact that others have been able to balance out fuel on both sides of the motor with a SR?

The only way I know of to get the most accurate fuel to each cylinder is with a SFI system.$$$

My opinion is to set the part throttle and WOT and just enjoy your beautiful car. Now go do a good burnout to relieve your frustration!

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Hey - thanks for the trouble-shooting offer, Scott!!! Hopefully you won't mind if I decline though...

Yep, swapped them from side to side twice now, and the problem doesn't change. I've done recalibrations on both sensors several times now as well.

The difference is a little worse at idle, but is still staying around .75-1.00 AFR diff at cruise and under light to moderate accel. I've not been able to do a WOT test yet, may have to run out at lunch and try that on the freeway. Only problem (besides getting caught) is watching both sensors at the same time, the traffic, tach, and for smokies all at the same time....

No, I don't. Guess I could be the guinea pig and be the only one dumb enough to check this. May have to call LPE and see if they ever noticed this condition.

What I'm most worried about is the WOT, I don't want to lean it out too much on one side while washing the cylinder walls down with gas all the time on the other side.

This problem has been so frustrating that I've actually been thinking about an LT1 harness conversion to get SFI. But the only way to gain anything there is by being able to tune the individual cylinder pulse widths, and I'm not sure which if any LT1 years allows that. Also worried about the knowledge base when it comes to DIY tuning on an LT1.

Good idea!

Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like it would help much though....

How would I go about checking the exhaust back pressure?

I'm also begging to wonder if it's a problem in the heads. They were ported by the guy I bought the motor from. I wonder if there could be a combustion chamber or port flowing difference causing this. Unfortunately the only way I know to check that is replace the heads or have the flowed. $$$

Haven't checked that, but I got the BBK 58mm brand new. Wonder if I could see enough difference visually that could cause this?

Z69

For the butterflies, you could check each side with a feeler gauge with the motor off. Be careful of that coating BBK globs on there. I sanded mine so the coating was at least smooth. It had all sorts of little spikes sticking up.

For the BP test, you could use your o2 sensor bungs and hook a gauge to each port while doing a test run. You'll want a low pressure gage and preferably one with a 2" dial or bigger. 0-15psi max. If the results aren't obvious, then that's probably not the problem.

In theory, you should blow blue smoke on cold start if the guides are bad.
And the heads would need to be real bad I'd think to show up at idle.

For tuning, set it so the rich side is about 12-1 or slightly lower.
You won't hurt the rings much if any and you'll be ok for an 1/8 mile WOT run on the lean side. On a side note, I've read about carbed motors swinging 2.0 afr points during a run. It's that wet manifold syndrome.....

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the reply and suggestions, Scott. I'll check the TB openings like you suggested. As far as the heads, valve guides appear fine. What I was referring to was maybe the porting job he did (I haven't seen the heads off the motor) isn't "balanced" across sides or cylinders. I understand about it shouldn't show up at idle though, the AFR difference at idle is a lot more pronounced right now (1.5 - 2.0), the .75 - 1.0 AFR difference is what it appears to average every where except at idle.

As for the back pressure test, sorry I'm sort of ignorant on what to do, use, and how to do it. What kind of gauge would I use, and how would I get it into the O2 bungs. As for a test run, do you mean just at idle, or somehow getting the gauge located so you can see it while driving? That might be a hard trick to pull off.....

FWIW - I talked to Lingenfelter, and they told me I should not be seeing an airflow difference with the Super Ram - especially nothing to cause a difference like this. Their first thought was injectors, but since I swapped sides with those a week ago they gave up on that idea. They said if the ignition system is okay, it almost has to be a small exhaust leak. They suggested pulling the header on that side and have it water pressure tested. Only problem with that idea is find someone/someplace to have that kind of thing done. Any suggestions?

Or other ideas?

DeWynter

Bolt on a plate over one end Preferably the head side, and seal it with silicone or a gasket, then fill the header with a thin liquid, like paint thinner or gas(last resort) and see if it leaks or seeps from any where. also you could close both ends and put a baker pump on the o2 bung and presure it up with a mix of water and ethanol and see if it holds pressure for a bit. You will of course have to make sure you seal both ends really well. Dont put to much pressure on it as I'm not to sure what a header is rated for in PSI 100 psi would be more than sufficent to test if it leaking. You will see it leak, add some dye if you think you need help locating the leak.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Great! Thanks for the explanation. I think I'll try that out this weekend. Appreciate it!!!!!

One more question please - what's a baker Pump?

DeWynter

Well I did a search on the net and I cant find quite what we use up here in Canada in the oilfield, but this comes close
Pumps, Hydraulic Equipments, Hydraulics
In canada we have a "baker Pump" which is basicaly the pump in the link attatched to a metal Gas can so it has its own water reserve for pumping. If you do this, make sure you fill the header with water and ethanol first or you will be pumping forever. Also try to get out as much ir as possible first. We use this for pressure testing small spools of pipe before they are put into production on well sites.

Z69

Oil field stuff... that explains why I recognized it....

I'd try 3/4" plywood and a gasket and bolt it together.
We found out the hard way at work that AL foil type tape will hold a suprising amount of pressure on a nat gas manifold for our turbine at work.
Might try that too/also.
Just use your garden hose. It should have 35 to 90 psi.

For the BP test. You can use a FP gage for carbs. Or buy a cheap gage.
You want low range to have any kind of accuracy at the low pressure you looking at. An 0-5psi gage will be expensive due to low volume sales. If that range is available.
You'll need to use a no fouler adapter or an old spark plug with the insulator removed and a fitting brazed on to hook up a hose to the o2 bung.
I'd use a short length of copper tube from the bung to the hose for heat isolation. You shouldn't see more than 1-2 psi when doing a WOT run.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Since I don't have access to oil field equipment, think I'll try some food coloring added to either some water/ethanol mix or paint thinner first and see if I can get any seepage anywhere. If not, I'll try to figure out a way to connect up a garden hose to the header and seal the openings and see if I can get any spraying or seepage that way before going any further. Appreciate the ideas and info!!!!

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm..... an interesting find last night when I got the driver's side (the "leaner" side) header pulled of - here's some pix: Driver's header pix

In all the pix, the header is oriented so that the right side of the picture is the front part of the motor. I've got pictures of the solid copper gasket as it sits on the header (shows the head side of the gasket)as well as some where I flipped the gasket up so you could see the header side of the gasket also.

I still plan to see if I can do the leak checks mentioned above. See what everyone else says, but I suspect a problem here....

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

I am not sure what to make of that? You may have had some leakage, but I have used those manifold gaskets and they are pretty stout. I know you say lean, but it looks as if cylinder 4 is rich, like a leaky injector. Is your air injection still functional? It may be plugged or what not. Plus I am not sure what that is exactly doing to your emissions if you are not using EGR. You may want to try temporarily pluggin it to see if it helps.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

When I say "leaner", I meant the readings coming off the WB sensors. I agree, there is no indication at the cylinder level that anything is running "lean".

Looking at the spark plugs and inside the headers, I'd say all of them are running rich. Cyl. #1 (far right in the pix) was the only plug not blackened quite a bit, and cylinder #3 (second from the right) was probably the worst. Cyl #7 plug actually has soot on the top side of the ceramic. I suspect part of the crud on the cyl #7 (far left in pix) gasket is from a leaking valve cover on that back corner of the motor that I fixed when I had the intake off last week.

Just to eliminate any questions, I also ran a compression test last night on this side of the motor. Held throttle to the floor and cranked it about 6 or 8 seconds on each reading (long enough to see the oil pressure come up and stabilize each time). Here's those readings:
Cyl #1: 234 psi
Cyl #3: 238 psi
Cyl #5: 239 psi
Cyl #7: 247 psi (last one tested, oil pressure may have been a tad higher)

So I don't think there's a mechanical problem evident...

Lo-tec

I had the leaky SLP problem brand new right out of the box (two sets) . I had my local machine shop grind them flat with some kind of belt sander, used good fel-pro gaskets, and no more leaks!!

RednGold86Z

iTrader: (1)

I'd bet it's those gaskets.

ANY darkness on the mating surface of a gasket is a leak, and exhaust pulses and vacuums are VERY powerful, at any speed.

The header flange is probably warped.

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

The black around the entire gasket is proof of a header gasket leak. You have a leak on the #7 cyl. and a leak between #3 and #5. So, there's one of your exhaust leaks right there that would throw off your AFR readings.

Lo-tec

Severe
Leakage
Problems

vernw

iTrader: (2)

That's pretty much what I figured (a definite exhaust leak that could skew the AFRs on the driver's side) when I saw that too. So the very first thing I did was grabbed a metal straight edge to see if they were warped. Running the straight edge length wise (across all four cylinders at the same time), they are all true. Could still be a little top to bottom warpage though since I didn't check that.

However, falling back on lessons learned from the runners and intake resealing exercise, I decided I'd better check that the bolts were really tightening up instead of bottoming out in the head. Can't say for sure on 4 of the six bolts (the 4 shorter ones - #2, #4, #5, and #6 starting from the right on the pictures) are all d@mn close to bottoming out. Within a single thread on the bolts if not closer. So I think I'm going to use some shorter ones when I put it back together. Those four shorter bolts on this side of the motor are currently the Breslin split lock 1" long under head lenght header bolts. Looks to me like I probably need the 3/4 inch versions.

What would you recommend as a good gasket to use? These copper ones are so hard I don't see any indentions on them at all where they were really forming to the head or header surfaces. Are the multi-layer aluminum ones worth a tinker's you-know-what?

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

I only use Fel-Pro....never had a problem with mine.