dmair5_0

Guys, you aren't gonna like what I have to say, but its gotta be said. Everything for a F-body is more expensive than on a Mustang. Everything from hoods to wings to wheels to engine components to interior stuff to rearends to headlights, EVERYTHING! I try to show my dad (who has a Mustang) what a good deal I can get on a part, he can get the comprable part for plenty less. Fact is, if we both had 2Grand to spend on our cars, he could get a LOT more than I could. WHY IS THIS??? It pisses me off. He can build more HP for less money, on a car that has more HP to start with. Even if I had a TPI car, same story. How much is a good Miniram intake or Superram intake for TPI??? Tons more than just about any intake you can buy for a Mustang. I'm beginning to think I should just get a Mustang!?!?!?!?!? Someone tell me why I shouldn't, I love my car, but this is ridiculous.

92blue

iTrader: (1)

I don't know why parts for our cars are so expensive, but I do know there is a bigger price gap for car parts than just camaro to mustang. I know someone that is restoring a 57 VW beetle (a 12 second beetle!) and the parts for his car are abundant and unbelievably cheap. He put in an beautiful custom headliner for $100. All the parts for his sunroof, another $100. I don't know what the deal is, but I don't like the huge price gap.

Casey'91Z28

plain and simple mustangs are more popular than camaros, don't ask me why.

sleeper

be glad you live in the US...

Canadians buying a part have to pay 1.5 times the US cost, customs charges, AND the government rapes them for 15% tax on top.

My friend in Toronto just paid $1700 for his Edelbrock heads and it took him 3 months to find them that cheap.

iroc22

Yeah Edelbrock heads around here are $1600...I looked at this option but found that the assembled S/R Torquers to be $1300 with tax.

Sitting Bull

Yeah, that's why I'm gonna port and polish a set of 305 heads myself. I ain't made out of money--even the funny stuff we have in Canada

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

very well put casey, typically most 3rdgens are wasting away somewhere...

the aftermarket demand supposedly isn't as high as that of a mustang. typically production numbers with the mustang have always way outsold the average f-body.

this topic hits so well to home, either it costs too much, doesn't fit right, or isn't made. their isn't one thing i've bought for my camaro that fit like a golve or was resonably priced........

if it wasn't for the fact that i absolutely love the style of my car i wouldn't have even thought about modding my car. i could build 2 showstopping mustangs that would run 12's no problem for my 91. but, you know what.....when you take her for a spin and everyone stares because a nice 3rdgen is rare it is worth it.!

ThirdGenZ28 92

Such is the price of being different. But thats why alot of people tend to go for Stangs/4thGens/Imports, they have a vast after market, infinitely cheaper and some respond VERY well to mods. Add to that the fact the some stock 3rdgen motors take gobs of work to put up the same numbers or less than stock rivals, have weak rears and restrictive intakes and its not a wonder we catch hell for our choice in cars.
There are parts out there for these cars, just have to know where to look(especially on the net) and fork over the extra $ for the parts. I like having a car not many others have and I like even more than Im running in stock LS1 area with boltons and little more than the factory provided me with. Last time I was at the track for opening day at Englishtown RP, there were TWO 3rdGens all day, for me.........I kinda liked that.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Because M*****gs and F**ds in general, are cheap, and so are their parts. Also, the more liked car from 82-92 was the F-Body, which outsold the M*****g 8 of the 11 years, and 5 of those years the Camaro did it itself, without needing Firebird sales to help it.

ronterry

You think F-Bodys got it bad. HA --- Parts for my Vette are 4 times more than F-Bodys.
They want 5 Grand for a ATI Pro-Charger !!!
Good after market intakes cost around 500 bucks for my LT1.
...and don't mistake that for all LT1's NO-NO-NO SIR. just Vette LT1's.
How's 750 bucks for an Opti-Spark(LT1 distributor) from the dealership sound. I guess I got off easy only paying 300 bucks for a remanfactured one at the parts store.
40 bucks for a plasic bazzel.
I had my windshield replaced, along with the weather stripping that goes around it. 800 Bucks !!!
IT'S SICK I TELL YOU!!!


Ron

ronterry

150 Bucks for a STOCK water pump..

IT'S SICK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dmair5_0

You have all made my point for me thanks. But my question is, if the F-bodies were so much more popular than the Mustangs for 11 years on average, why is the aftermatket so expensive for us? I would think if we have the more popular car, we would have the larger aftermarket. And good point up there, in all honesty Mustnags do respond better to mods than Firebirds and Camaros do. It makes me sick. It the old addage, "if ya can't beat em' join em'." Seems unfair. I'd love to do the Firebird the way I want, simply put, I can't afford it. Aftermarket..... are you listening????

riz75

good example. Summit has an entire section just for Mustang. when all is said and done, i love my 91z. it's my 4th z28 and this one will stay with me. i will eventually like to get another car (something with a much more comfortable ride), but i will always have my camaro for when the FUN BUG bites

TA

iTrader: (1)

Hi Guys:

Well, I hate to rain on your parades, but the reason that the Mustang, and soon to be Import and truck stuff is cheaper is very simple economics. The company that produces stuff for FI Mustangs will sell 50 times more product than for 3rd gen cars.

How do I know? I'm in the business. If you don't believe me, look at the all-Mustang NMRA series, they run amazing numbers and have good sized crowds nationwide. There has been ONE F-body event, and hasn't been repeated. Pick up an issue of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords, or Mustang 5.0, or Racepages (NMRA Rag), and see how many pages of ads there are. We probably get most of our coverage from GM High Tech and Chevy High Perf, which are comparitively tiny and skinny magazines, and CHP even focuses primarily on older carbureted Chevies. Try finding GM High Tech on a newsstand, it's not even monthly.

What does this tell us? Just like us, manufacturers vote with their wallets. Despite the number of 3rd gen cars out there, Ford sold way more port injected 5.0's than GM sold TPI cars. In stock form, the 5.0 was quicker and faster, and cheaper to get more from. So, more people do them up. There are signs that a lot of magazines that have ignored us in the past are now showing signs of interest, but the manufacturers say we just don't buy the aftermarket products in numbers worth worrying about, and so every part specific to our cars is more expensive. And to the guy with the Vette, I have a 4th gen Camaro, and the prices he listed are identical for my car. Frankly, if you want to be cheap, but a VW or a Mustang. Otherwise, expect to pay the piper for being different.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

1st of all we have SBC's, which has a bigger aftermarket than pretty much anything and are very affordable. When u look in JEGS or Summit, the M*****g has a big section all to itself, but the rest of the magazine is practically ALL Chevy. TPI is expensive and what there isn't much for. See, what some1 said was correct. The engine/combination that was slightly faster than the 5.0 (350 TPI Auto) and the engine/combination that ran with most of them (305 TPI 5-Speed) weren't produced as much as the other low performance combinations like V6's, L03's, and so on. The 5.0 had a good production back then, unlike now where their top engine gets outsold by their V6's incredibly. GM stuff is usually a little more expensive than F**d and it should be, I'll gladly pay for it. Does the 5.0 respond good to mods, yeah, but so do SBC's. Theres plenty of free stuff u can do to TPI to open it up and get it flowing more, and theres no doubt it is a performer when done and matched right. Maybe the prices will go down, and they should, but theres really not many more things they can make.

TA

iTrader: (1)

IrocZ

Don't forget, the 350TPI car that actually was a good runner was in a heavier car, and more importantly, has a 1 pc main seal block, roller cam and a different pattern for the intake. The result is that very few of the parts available for all those small blocks will fit our engines. Not cranks, blocks, heads, intakes, even the valve covers are different. That is the problem. This stuff was produced for only a few years comparitively and in small numbers. So the aftermarket sells them in smaller numbers. We can use the SBC Pistons and Con rods, pushrods, but that's about it.

The development and tooling prices for this stuff can get into many tens of thousands of dollars. If they can't sell enough of them, they have to hit us harder for each part. Do I like it? No. But you won't catch me in a Mustache either.

The import guys have even more problems. Despite the popularity of that scene, import manufacturers totally redesign their cars like we change our sox. The aftermarket will never be able to offer affordable heads, etc for those cars because they change the design too often, and who'd buy a new 4 valve head for $3000, and gain 4 hp? I'll stay with my third gen (and 4th gen) and pay the prices, and hope more do also, then the prices will go down. But if you have an 87 or later, you really don't have a small block chevy as far as the aftermarket is concerned.

dmair5_0

All true and well, but fact remains, take a 350TPI and a 5.0 Stang put $2000 into each, the Mustang will be faster. Won't look better, but will be faster. And yes, I know about the Mustang, grew up with them all over, I'm a lone GM guy in a sea of Ford, but hell, I can't keep up, I know that for sure. Every time I tell my old man what I'm getting for my car he just looks at me and says anything you can do I can do better son. ****!!!! I know he's right, what can a guy do but conceed? Looks good, goes SLOW. Costs mucho!

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Do u have an L98?? I've seen some of them go pretty fast for cheap. U can buy more for the M*****g yeah, they are lighter also. But try suspension mod for mod and see which car has the advantage.

sleeper

Priced out the parts (Summit/Excessive) for an 87 Mustang = $2193
For an 87 Camaro = $2655

The above was for Trick Flow heads, Ford/Edelbrock intake, runners, injectors, plenum, throttle body, and camshaft. The plenum for the Camaro is $85 exchange for a TPIS ported one.

I drove my friends 87 Mustang, with an Accel Superram instead of the GT-40, that he ran at 12.60 on street tires. After driving his and getting back into my Firechicken I was less than happy. Especially knowing that I'd spent far more money on mine than he did on his and mine runs high 13's. The only thing that kept me from burning my f-body is that it handles better and the Firebird interior looks nicer. However, that becomes less important now that the car is 14 years old. Also... Florida is a pancake and there aren't very many roads with curves.

I don't think I'll be a GM buyer anymore... unless it's from the 60's

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

What engine do u have??

JPrevost

I think most of you aren't looking hard enough for good prices. Just about every part for the 5.0 mustang can be had for the thirdgen at the same price excluding the port injection or course. The suspension parts are all the same price if not cheaper for the thirdgens thanks to Spohn, SLP, Hotchkis to name a few. Then there is the Bilstien shocks that are the same price along with the Eibach springs, poly pushings are DIRT cheap especially the motor mounts. Then if you look at building a 5.0 stang vs a 5.7 chevy...the 5.7 is cheaper depending on choice of intake. Why do you think I praise TBI...it's cheaper and just as fast .
Our wet-flow (not just carb!) intake manifolds are cheaper. The only real difference is the cost of building a stronger rear and tranny. The T5 in the f-body is a piece and the stock 10 bolt needs some work, especially if you got the small splines on the tranny and axles! Then SLP came to mind and hey...$100 for a take-off torsen posi unit and gears are only ~$140. Yeah, it adds up quick but don't think that a mustang doesn't have the same problems. Oh yeah, and as far as exhaust is concerned, same same. Our stainless headers are cheaper I believe, not sure but last time I checked they were. The design might not be the best but it's sure cheaper to have only 1 large pipe than 2 smaller pipes .
I wouldn't say a mustang is cheaper...I'd say it's a waste of money unless you are only looking for straight line performance. Try and imagine I didn't just say that in an Import owners tone of voice, lol. It's true though, the f-body almost always cleans up mustangs but GM sucks are marketing aftermarket. Anybody notice how long it took for the 4.6L mustang to get a blower and N2o? Heck, even the new N2o kits are focused on V6 performance!!! yuk
So you guys can cry cry cry but it's unwarrented. Oh yeah, and if you want to build a killer street car, it's realy nice how easy it is to swap in a 6 speed from a 4th gen or vette .
Oh, and the ford fuel injectors...they fit in the TPI fuel rail! So quick the wimper and buy the $150 poly LCA and panhard boxed version from SLP , wasn't that easy.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Thank You.

Yup, when u have more displacement u make more power. And the 700 can be built for a great street car too and be made to handle high HP and hard shifts. But how is TBI just as fast?? When K91Z did a swap he had nice gains with TPI over the TBI. It is cheaper though.

sober333

Yeah i am very upset with the price diffrence and avalability in parts for camaro and mustang. I just og a jegs catalog in the mail and it has one page one camaro parts and 8 pages on the stupid mustang! I love my camaro and i want to mod it but fact is i am in college and i have no money. the mustangs does sound very appealing performance wise but fact is it looks like crap and i wound't be cought dead driving one. I would rather have a nice looking better handling camaro any day. plus whats the point of having a faster car if it cant be controled.

johnsjj2

I don't want to stir up any bad emotions, but given the chance, I would take an older Crustang, and drop the engine from the Camaro in it, just to **** off Ford guys. The fact is, they are light, which help make them fast. They do rattle, at least the ones I have been in, as much as my Camaro does. They have less leg room, but for the 1000 miles a year that I would drive it, I wouldn't care. I honestly like some of the Mustang body styles. Maybe I'm just not as dedicated to GM as some others are. THey **** me off sometimes. The ignorant crap about killing the F-body for awhile, raping the consumer with the SSR, now when the Monaro gets here, I would bet it would still be cheaper to go to Australia and buy one there, then have it shipped back. Okay, my rant is over.

dmair5_0

JPrevost, everything you say is absolutely true, however, I just want to make the point that the intake is almost always the first mod you make to an engine. A variety of Ford intakes can be had for cheaper than any TPI intake. Unless of course you go rear end, in which Mustangs came stock with Posi rears and generally lower gear ratio's (3.08 standard on Stangs, 2.73's on most Firebirds) and no posi, so yes you have to spend somewhere near $200 just to get the same rear you'd have in a stock Stang. Exhaust is the same price, albeit you are getting two of everything on a Mustang due to the true dual exhaust, compared to one of everything for an F-body. In my mind F-body exhausts should be $150!!!! If I can get a stainless dual Flowmaster system for $350 for a Mustang, why not much less for an f-body? And no, a 5.7 cannot handle more HP than a 5.0, if that's what you think that is a misconception. I look through pa's Muscle Mustang and 5.0 Mag's and see completely street Stangs running 500 HP, easily. 700 or 800 is doable, haven't seen many f-bodies doing that??!! And as far as handling goes, dad's stang can keep up with my Bird in the twisties, grant it he had to spend moeny to do it and I didn't. I love the interior of my Bird, hate the interior of the Stangs, and I truly believe the Firebird/Camaro is a better looking platofrm as a whole. But as far as pure performance, no comparison, Stang wins hands down. Again, makes me sick.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Jprevost, I really have to take issue with the statement . I have owned both TBI and TPI F bodies in stock and modified form. Granted, changing to the same rear end gears for both helped, but if you look at the Throttle Body, and work out the area open, factor in that it has to flow as much air and fuel togther as a TPI throttle body of almost twice the size, which does not have to flow any fuel, there is just no way in hell it will make the same or even similar power as a TPI. Explain to me, if the TBI system is equalivelent, that it's rated at 30-40 HP LESS (depending on year) than an otherwise identical 305 engine in the same year car?

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of room for improvement to the TPI systems, but the TBI system has never been or never will be a performance system, you just can't get enough flow through it. This, along with the fact that you have probably not looked for deals on Mustang stuff, leads me to discount most of your opinion. I've been wrong before, bit this is about opinions, right? Experience? I love my F-bodies, but I'm also realistic and have been around. you don't win races by telling the other guy how fast you are

Frankly, the L98 is hampered by an old cylinder head and combustion chamber design, and an intake system designed and tuned for the 305 for Torque. As long as these two parts are on your car in stock form, you are not going to pass many Mustangs. Because the TPI manifold is so complex (lotsa pieces) it's expensive to replace with aftermarket parts.

JPrevost

LOL, the engines AREN'T IDENTICAL FOR **** CRYING OUT LOUD!
Sorry, but I don't know how else to pound this into peoples heads. You people make me sick sometimes, you think TBI is a crap injection system because it made only 170hp stock and the TPI made ~220hp. You think they're similar engines....nope. The L03 (TBI 305) got swirl port heads with nasty intake runners that had a huge ridge and the swirl port blocks off half the valve opening to make the "swirl." Kind of like that tornado piece. Oh yeah, and do I also need to tell you to look at the cam profiles? Also the programming in the TBI systems was usually not optimal for performance and rather economy (0 base timing and crappy VE curves) while TPI got all the goodies as far as the heads, cam, and programming were concerned. Oh yeah, and TPI in general ran a little rich which ment that when you do a couple mods you won't be running lean like the TBI speed density setup. That's only a might, not always true because the injector flow rates from the factory were never flow matched.
Yes, TBI will make just as much power and if you want proof, it'll be here this summer after I dyno my car and a couple other L03 engines at East Coast F-body nats at E-town raceway.
You guys make me want to yack. GM screwed TBI over from the start, they installed it on a slower base and in the trucks. Don't even get me started about the whole truck parts aren't performance parts because that's also ! My proof only has one word, VORTEC. Even if you don't like the vortec heads you can't deny they make the small block fly. Best iron heads from the factory and with the same compression it'll make MORE HP than even the vette L98 aluminum heads! With porting and more compression the vette heads have more potential but not right out of the box.
So if you want to get on my case about TBI, read more about TBI and what the real people are doing to make their cars faster. I don't have the money to do port injection but I didn't want to give up EFI for a carb, so TBI was the answer. Cheap, all the benifits of EFI and the flexibility to work with any motor and intake combo so long as the user burns their own eproms.
Eproms and speed density go hand in hand, if you want the unrestricted flow in your TPI setup you want the 7730 ecm but it means having to program your own eproms or you'll hate it. This is why all the TBI guys usually go to carb. They don't make adjustements and think their setup should make adjustments like the MAF TPI setups...which is impossible.
If you got questions, let me know, I've gotta go take a calc final now but I'll be back later tonight to continue this topic.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

What about when people like K91Z use both systems on the SAME engine and see a nice improvement over TBI with TPI. Was the 13.8 in your sig when your car was up to date or what??

"I look through Muscle Mustang and 5.0 Mag's and see completely street Stangs running 500 HP, easily. 700 or 800 is doable, haven't seen many f-bodies doing that??!!"

Of course there are F-Bodies out there doing that. 5_0, wanna race them against this 305 TPI which is daily driven when not at the track and emissions legal?? http://sethirdgen.org/members/Iroc.mpeg

iroc22

Did anyone catch the latest Hot Rod TV episode where they replaced the TBI with MPFI from Edelbrock on their 350TBI '94 1/2 ton pickup? They had a baseline dyno of 142rwhp and they made 166rwhp after the swap. Sounds good doesnt it? But they did many things that got them there. New fuel pump, taller air cleaner element, aluminum single plan intake (that's what Edelbrock uses on their MPFI unit) and a new performance calibrated chip. Ok lets see the new fuel pump will probably give 5rwhp back, 10-15rwhp over the stock TBI manifold, 2-3rwhp with taller element and probably 3rwhp for the new chip at least. So lets see that could add up the difference in the rwhp and you might be gettin like at most 5 rwhp for the extra 6 injectors. When u see the final results of these swaps u gotta consider what was changed from the stock pieces. After 100,000 miles these pieces stop working well.

And the people that say the TBI can't perform and isnt a performance system havent ever tuned it.

Oh and TA you cant compare the TBI throttle body and TPI throttle body in flow because they are 2 different systems For example the Accel Super Ram has a 1000cfm throttle body but a 750cfm carb would be about the air flow equivalent when u measured the airflow going into the heads. It's not all about the numbers.

JPrevost

IROCZTWENTYGR8, no, that time and mph was with no tuning, just a stock caprice cop car eprom with minor changes in VE tables so it wasn't running super rich at idle, that's IT. The base timing is an unknown since my marks weem to be at least 10 or more * off. The only thing I did as far as tuning that eprom in my sig 1/4 run was disable the mph fuel cut off and disable EGR, both of which do nothing as far as performance is concerned. EGR is off at idle and doesn't go on when put the pedal down fast!
With my new timing tables I'll run a 104mph no question about it. I was also running slighty lean beyond 5000rpm and if you want proof I can reiterate what I've posted a few other times but you should believe me .
TBI rocks. Might not be the best WOT performer but it makes up for that with it's off idle torque from accurate fuel and timing controls. Oh yeah, and with a properly designed intake, TBI won't have the same problems as a carb does with the fuel distribution. In other words, you won't loose as much low-mid range torque as a carb when you go to a single plane. I could sit here for hours listing the pros and cons of all intake systems but just trust me when I say TBI isn't anybody's problem....EVER.
Lots of people like the port injection but some like the wet-flow and for us wet-flow guys there's always the Holley pro-jection systems that can support 600+hp n/a with it's 900cfm TB and 4 injectors.

super83Z

I agree with Jprevost on two accounts.

#1 there ALOT of places out there cheaper than Jeg's and Summit. I know a couple dealers that I email privately and they are always cheaper than Summit and Jeg's. The only thing expensive about Camaro's is the TPI intake itself. It has a lot of parts and the aftermarket eats that up. And whos to say that the F-body can't be as fast for the same amount of mods. A heads/ Cam/intake 5.0 will run low 13's to high 12's. A f-body will do the same. Get a good set of heads/cam/ and do some home porting on the intake to save some money and you will be right there with that 5.0. And if you don't want to pay extra for self-aligning rockers and centerbolt valve covers when you buy the heads get a set with perimeter valve cover bolts and guideplates. There are ways to save money I can give you a couple email addresses if you want but Summit is more of a conveince than a place to save money.

#2 All you got to do is piture TBI as a "smart" carb. IT is just as potent as a carb. TPi might make more torque but that is a given. The factory pieces were absolutely horrible. IT was more for economy back in the 80's.

TA

iTrader: (1)

OK, so after Jprevost crying out loud at me and trying to pound into my head how bitchen TBI is, I went out to the rat pile and drug out some heads. They are from and 88 tbi (rated at 150hp) and a 87 TPI car (190HP auto). The casting numbers are different, and it's hard to see everything perfectly, because they're pretty grimy, but I sure can't see any huge ridge or swirl port. As a matter of fact, the ports and combustion chambers look IDENTICAL. Are these the original heads as delivered on the cars? I dunno. Did GM put one togther on Friday? ( I've heard about 3rd gen cars with mismatched heads, a 305 and a 350 head on the same 350) I dunno. But I was really curious to see your flow restriction, and I just don't see it. I've been porting heads for all kinds of engines for 22 years, so I would know one if I saw one. I never keep stock cams around. They give me a rash

Apparently we just have a difference in opinion about what a high performance part is. Vortech heads, for instance. High Performance? Not stock, they're not. You can't run big cams, there isn't enough installed height to the valve springs, they bind. Press in studs, cast iron, and not great high lift flow numbers. Sure, if you're determined to prove me wrong, you can have them reworked into some excellent street heads, and they are a HUGE leap forward from the original heads, but I would never put them on a race car unless they were totally reworked, and then they're not really such a great deal with all the machining and new valves and screw in studs, valve job, porting, etc. The term here is "false economy", but for a car with a TBI setup, they'd be great, and you could use the bigger truck manifold and Throttle body. Yahoo! 260 HP!!

And I think you misinterpret what I said about the TBI. Sure, by the time you replace the Manifold, the throttle body, and re-tune your fuel and ignition tables, you can get somewhere with it, but in my opinion, there's no longer a TBI system there anymore, now it's a Frankenstein's monster Throttle body setup, and I've been spanked enough by strange contraptions to know better than to not pay attention. But a Smart Carb? As delivered, its a smart 2 barrel on a low compression motor with a misquito bite cam. Carbs still will outperform a port injected motor at WOT, so what happened to your TBI here if its such a smart carb? All it does over a carb is run more accurately when it's cold, and allow you to tune it without taking it apart to swap jets, needles and float heights. You seem to have missed READING what I WROTE, but you can't feed a lot of horsepower through those two tiny holes, regardless of if those holes were feeding a TPI, TBI or a carb.

If you want to really adapt and engineer something that will kick some butt, look into swapping a 93-on LT-1 into your third gen. Much better top end and intake system, into a lighter car. Then if you want to do some tuning on that motor, you'll be feeding on Mustangs. But if you want to keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, go ahead. You will learn a lot, and when you get old and grumpy like me, you'll have to listen to people like you :hail:

JPrevost

TA, it's hard for me to believe you've been working on heads for 22 years. Every year the L03 has been in an f-body it's made 170hp in 88 with 9.3:1 compression, LB9 made 190hp with the same cam. Now if you actually took the time to look down the intake runner and not the actual chamber (all the same), you'd have noticed first a very large ridge that looks like the intake runners are conforming around the pushrods...when really it isn't necissary. Then if you use a flash light you can look down the port and only see half of the valve stem. You can't see the other half because it's blocked off by metal and it's almost like a playground slide shape. It's great for economy but restrics total flow when the engine wants to make the most power...above 3000rpm, lol. The stock TBI intake is also pretty shaby, the plenum is a column the size of the bore = crap. Kind of like how a stock intake base with TPI is a major restriction with the L98.
I also might point out the exhaust and intake air cleaner shape/design. $15 and TBI has a non-drop base air cleaner and no more silencer rings and spacers with drop base snrokes sucking through a straw! Back to the exhaust. If you looked at the exhaust manifolds, you would notice a 2.25" y-pipe on the LO3 and a larger 2.5" setup on all TPI 305s.
What I would like to do is take a LB9 car and swap on a TBI setup, tune it and run it. It's never been done so we'll probably never know what the difference is .
Frankenstien TBI, that's a good one. When I was first researching to stay TBI or go carb I talked to a guy that called his 350 TBI a frankenstien setup. He said it was a waste of money, then I asked him if he had a custom eprom...he said yeah, it's a stage 2 JET chip. I wonder what his problem was (damn off the shelf eproms).

LOL, you talk about using a bigger truck manifold and TBI for a 260hp, I'll laugh off the 260hp but again I don't see your logic. There is no such thing as a bigger truck manifold for TBI, it's the same damn casting as the f-body 305! Same ****ing piece with the same TBI, only different calibration and larger injectors!
BTW, I'll point it out to you again if you missed it the first time. TBI can use carb intakes, I'm using the edelbrock RPM intake with a 1" adaptor plate from holley with the holley STANDARD REPLACEMENT 50 STATE LEGAL 2" bore 670cfm TB unit they sell for the same price as those BBK and larger TPI TBs, only difference is that mine comes WITH injectors
I agree with you on one part, the vortec heads are definatly not worth the money if you're looking for all out performance over 450hp from a 350. The do require some work for higher lift but with a.480" lift and enough duration you can make more than 380hp without any machining, just new springs and a different flat tap cam!
I'm actually glad there are so many people that are ignorant about TBI, it gives me an edge. When somebody wants to street race I'll just tell them I got a 350 and TBI, I won't lie, that's exactly what the cars got. The single exhaust pipe, RS badges and a stock hood are my "poker face."
Anyways, if I were given a TPI setup you can bet money I'd sell it for near $500 and have myself a new cam and more performance.
Oh, and TBI isn't just more accurate than a carb in cold, it's also more accurate ALL THE TIME with the added bonus of having closed loop, EGR, and computer controled timing.
If I ever did go to port injection it would have to be sequential. I just don't like the idea of all the injectors firing at the same time and having the valves vaporize the fuel before it gets sucked in. Works great for some but give me sequential LS1 injector control and I'd contemplate it.
Anybody else have any input on this debate or is everybody's eyes tired? Either that or you're all being smart and using the search feature to find the previous debates.
Only time a carb will be in my car is when I want to play with something and waste my time. I might even do it to get a quick baseline in 1/4 performance.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dmair5_0
JPrevost, everything you say is absolutely true, however, I just want to make the point that the intake is almost always the first mod you make to an engine. A variety of Ford intakes can be had for cheaper than any TPI intake.

There are things for both engines that are more expensive than other. 1 is not completely cheaper, and JEGS and Summit are not the only places u can buy things.

Unless of course you go rear end, in which Mustangs came stock with Posi rears and generally lower gear ratio's (3.08 standard on Stangs, 2.73's on most Firebirds) and no posi, so yes you have to spend somewhere near $200 just to get the same rear you'd have in a stock Stang.

What?? What cars are u talking about?? 350 TPI's and the 305 5-Speed G92's were all posi and alot got the stronger BW 9 bolt (yes some did get 2.73's and the 10 bolt, but few) with either 3.27's or 3.45's.

Exhaust is the same price, albeit you are getting two of everything on a Mustang due to the true dual exhaust, compared to one of everything for an F-body. In my mind F-body exhausts should be $150!!!! If I can get a stainless dual Flowmaster system for $350 for a Mustang, why not much less for an f-body?

I agree about the price, they are crazy, but, our single aftermarket setups definetly work good or just as good as their exhaust, and honestly, I do not like the sound of M*****gs pretty much at all.

And no, a 5.7 cannot handle more HP than a 5.0, if that's what you think that is a misconception. I look through Muscle Mustang and 5.0 Mag's and see completely street Stangs running 500 HP, easily. 700 or 800 is doable, haven't seen many f-bodies doing that??!!

I know I quoted this before, but that statement is ridiculous. The SBC 350 can take just as much, if not more than a F**d engine. They are stronger and make more power for the $/displacement. Saying a 5.7 isn't as good as the 5.0 is just laughable. And I wouldn't want to be in that F**d unibody with all that power thats for sure. I've heard all the **** about them just buckling at the track and not being able to have T-Tops legitimatly because of those kinds of issues with it.

And as far as handling goes, dad's stang can keep up with my Bird in the twisties, grant it he had to spend moeny to do it and I didn't. I love the interior of my Bird, hate the interior of the Stangs, and I truly believe the Firebird/Camaro is a better looking platofrm as a whole. But as far as pure performance, no comparison, Stang wins hands down. Again, makes me sick.

F-Bodies win handling/braking no matter what with M*****gs, stock or when both are modded. When u buy an F-Body u are buying a car with more good overall aspects than a M*****g. And again I disagree with your performance statement. The only cars that were a real competitor for the L98's were the 5.0 5-Speed LX's ONLY, 87-88 mostly, don't even bother thinking about their Auto's. The LB9 5-Speeds didn't have much of a problem keeping up with/beating the Auto's either as the M*****g got slower later on and the 5.7's pretty much just outran them all no matter the trans. TPI has alot of unlocked potential and LOTS of restrictions from the factory, but most of them can be corrected for free and respond nicely. U underestimate the 350 TPI and LB9 5-Speeds and overrate the 5.0 way too much. Talk to some other M*****g guys or go to their sites.

grumpygreaseape

owning my camaro has always been about EVERYTHING BUT the money. go for what ya like and do with it what you will. fukk phords always and forever-the only brand of car that comes equipped off the ***-sembly line with recall stickers pre-applied in the engine compartment. remember-there is always going to be someone faster than you-friggin always, get over it. and stop this argueing you bench racing ninnies-now go do a big smokin burnout in front of your phord owning neighbors house-because you can

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

LOL, yeah!!

dmair5_0

Alright, I' never said a 5.7 was the lesser engine than the 5.0 Ford engine, I simpy said that it couldn't handle any MORE power like someone else said. And I guess you can argue with me all you want, I'm not looking for a fight, all I'm saying is I've seen what I've seen. It is much easier and cheaper to install performance parts on a Mustang. My dad's 87' LX has a cat-back, 3.55's a Cobra intake, E303 cam, shift kit and ram air. He runs low to mid 13's. Oh yeah, and its the dredded automatic transmision!!!!! WHat did he spend? About $1150. I suppose you could get a mini-ram system for that huh? I know you couldn't run low 13's on that much money in a TPI car. Maybe you could, and actually probably everyone is gonna jump on me and try to prove it. Again, I've never seen it, just stating what I've seen. Wish there was a diff way to say it but there isn't, our cars are expensive!!!!!

iroc22

Uhh car craft did a buildup with a 305, 750cfm carb, flat tappet cam with a stock set of Vortec heads and they made 325hp @ 5800rpm. And that's with a 305.

grumpygreaseape

and for all his thriftyness he is rewarded by still driving around in a mustang? is that some illustration of "how i polished up a poop and sold it as a sausage sandwich?" umm, i still dont get it. a mustang. think about it . a blue oval. i mean if its all about the quarter-which it aint for me-then get a 440 with 9.5 comp. an a body dart a holley and some headers and for fun squeeze it a bit. please add traction. 11 seconds yup why *** around with a crustang or camaro if your intent is covering the 1/4 as fast and as economically as possible. this arguement is moot. is what we are talking all about faster and cheaper? yes the camaro is more expensive no its not a phord-there is a reason its more expensive, i got some pride and you could GIVE me a mustclang and i would part it out and sell it to the poor misguided saps who chose that road to take. never me nonono senor :nono:

super83Z

Right on grumpygreaseape! If you don't care about what the car looks like as long as its covering the quarter mile the fastest as possible then maybe you should reconsider what you are driving and why you are driving it. Earlier in the post someone compared prices of modding an 87 5.0 vs. a 87 Camaro. It was like $450 difference. Trust me when you get into modding a car as much as I have $450 doesn't end up looking like alot. And I won't even mention how that can be accounted for the night and day difference in handling between the two cars.

grumpygreaseape

so are you agreeing with me? or ? i think that you got my meaning-thats what i am saying-if one wants a camaro and one likes a camaro then (like me) the idea of even considering a mustang never even enters my cranium. i didnt buy and never will buy a car based on its expense to modify-if i like it and i can afford it -im buyin it-i loved my camaro from day one when i bought it in 1985 and actually the cost of stuff to make it faster never entered my mind until i read this thread-it was always like-"ok, part "X" costs "Y" do i have the cash or do i need to save up" it was always very simple. never thought "waaaah, the crustang guys are saving so much money with thier cars" IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE DRIVING MUSTANGS-i assumed that nothing more was needed to be said and definately no more mental power was required to be spent cross checking bux to value. i was building a fast car and i knew going in that aint nothin cheap. so i did it all myself, horse traded when possible, bought good used parts and it all works ****. i do have reciepts from day one-*** it im not addin them up because in the big scheme it dont mean sheeit-i dig my car and am secure in that. and one thing for sure-it is not a mustang-if people feel the need to compare their f-body to a fox platform ford-maybe then they dont get it either

super83Z

Yeah I'm agreeing with you. When I was looking for a car I didn't go out and look to see how much stuff cost for it first. If that were the case I wouldn't have bought a Cross-fire car. But I liked the Camaro always did. Like I stated in an earlier post there are alot of places out there cheaper than Jeg's and Summit. they are just a convience.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

I agree.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i haven't bothered to read into every post so this probably won't make much sense. but, dollar for dollar mustangs are cheaper. no matter what you say though, take a 91-92 mustang and put 2,000 in any configuration possible and give my my L98 SD with the same money and i will have no problem showing you tail lights.

mustangs are quick, some of them are down right fast, but it takes possibly less money in the long run but alot of parts.

dmair5_0

wow, some of you guys are taking this way too seriously. Couple of things though. I didn't go out and buy my car looking for expense to performance ratio either. THAT IS WHY I'M IN THIS PREDICAMENT TO START WITH. Another thing, that is all fine and well to love your car and think that is the only thing that matters. I love my Firebird too, but boy do I look like a jack *** when I get the crap kicked out of me by a Mustang and I stand up and go :yeah but your Mustang is junk and my Firebird is cool!" C'mon man you gotta be kidding. I'm not saying Mustangs are better, so don't assume thats what I'm saying. What I AM saying is that they go faster, in a general sense of the meaning. And for someone who is on a budget (wedding, honeymoon, new house, fiance' new car to pay for among other things) and probably always will be on a budget, its hard to swallow and just accept that my car will always cost more to mod, and still see tailights of a lot of Stangs.

BuckeyeROC

While the 5.0L Mustang aftermarket parts may be cheaper, we don't have it too bad. Look at what LS1 mods cost. And anything that says Corvette is automatically more expensive than our parts. Vipers have REALLY high prices for parts, as do the ricers.

IROCThree8Three

Yes M******'s are cheaper and more popular, but is this a good thing? Every where i turn i see another Rustang, they all look the same after awhile, even the nice ones! Our cars may be more expensive, but how many NICE F-Bodies do you see running around, not many. I, like everyone else, probably should be spending my hard earned money on something other than my car, but dosnt it feel good to own a car so good looking that isnt so mainstream? Bottom line is, i would rather spend a little more money than the ford guys, than have a car that i put alot into and looks almost identical to everyone elses.

Just my thoughts.

JPrevost

That basically summed up what everybody else said .
Definatly feels good owning an attractive sports car that isn't main stream. This is why I like the 91-92 style and the 87-89 birds (not formulas).
It's also nice to know there is more potential in the f-body chassis than in the crustangs. Big blocks slip in, transmission and rear selections are ample. Straight line performance, yes, the mustang is probably cheaper, but considering I did a small block engine swap for less than $3000 (330hp everything brand spankin new, even injectors and waterpump). I did that with a I think you guys give too much credit to the price of a f**d.
The small block chevy is more common than the ford small block so don't give me grief that it's more expensive to mod an f-body.
I'm almost glad there aren't so many magazines about the f-bodies considering GM canned the production line. I'll always be a bow tie guy so price shmice, build it, run it, enjoy it.
If you want a stang, get one!

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

well it's understandable that money is an issue, but i can' possibly see how it's that bad........if you really wanted the speed that bad you'd go out and find a way to get it.

personally i think it's great that you can take a 91-92z(only using these cause i know more about the SD ) and with $2000 you can take a mid 14 sec car and put it in the 12's and it will still be reliable . i have no shame in my f-body......if a mustang beats me it's because he spent more money on aftermarket parts. it takes alot to get a 91-92 mustang gt into the 12's. cheap aftermarket parts or not.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Same s**t in this post. https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=91767