Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
02-04-2010, 09:49 AM
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Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
Todays product caomparrison is brought to you by all the dead orange cones that sacrificed themselves fearlessly so YOU could get your drivers license .....
MOVING ON !
The products of todays comparrison are :
Edelbrock Top End Power Package http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2098/
and
Holley Street Systems
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-300-503-1/
The test platform will be a 85-87 Chevrolet Camaro, with a 350 unmodified, being swapped into it. For comparrison purposes, the parts will be added with the engine out of the car, to minimize labor cost, if they were to be installed by a professional.
The goal of this comparrison is to balance pros and cons of the two systems, so input from people using them is greatly appreciated.
Let the battle begin !
MOVING ON !
The products of todays comparrison are :
Edelbrock Top End Power Package http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2098/
and
Holley Street Systems
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-300-503-1/
The test platform will be a 85-87 Chevrolet Camaro, with a 350 unmodified, being swapped into it. For comparrison purposes, the parts will be added with the engine out of the car, to minimize labor cost, if they were to be installed by a professional.
The goal of this comparrison is to balance pros and cons of the two systems, so input from people using them is greatly appreciated.
Let the battle begin !
02-04-2010, 02:30 PM
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Re: Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
unfortunately my closest "speed" shop is run by a bunch of morons who don't know the difference between boost and vaccuum so....
Please explain why the systems are not good. All of the parts in that kit were put together to create optimum power, were they not ? Why would companies like Holley or Edelbrock package these products with their names on them if they weren't able to produce ?
What would you use/ recomend in place of the parts included in those kits. Please be specific.
Please explain why the systems are not good. All of the parts in that kit were put together to create optimum power, were they not ? Why would companies like Holley or Edelbrock package these products with their names on them if they weren't able to produce ?
What would you use/ recomend in place of the parts included in those kits. Please be specific.
Last edited by Steven20063; 02-04-2010 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Adding comment...
02-07-2010, 08:14 PM
#5
Re: Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
unfortunately my closest "speed" shop is run by a bunch of morons who don't know the difference between boost and vaccuum so....
Please explain why the systems are not good. All of the parts in that kit were put together to create optimum power, were they not ? Why would companies like Holley or Edelbrock package these products with their names on them if they weren't able to produce ?
What would you use/ recomend in place of the parts included in those kits. Please be specific.
Please explain why the systems are not good. All of the parts in that kit were put together to create optimum power, were they not ? Why would companies like Holley or Edelbrock package these products with their names on them if they weren't able to produce ?
What would you use/ recomend in place of the parts included in those kits. Please be specific.
Those systems are fairly low-tech, and cookie-cutter combinations. They are very generically designed to cover a wide variety of conditions with a "350" cube engine.
You will always get better results by having each part chosen or modified specifically for your exact application. By that I mean how you use the engine, rather than just what size the engine is.
Things like vehicle weight, gearing, transmission type, fuel type, supporting modifications, the type of driving you do, and the exact "type" of performance you are looking for are all important factors to consider when matching parts for an effective combination.
The cookie-cutter combo of parts will work in a heavy truck with highway gears used for hauling or towing, or in a Chevy Vega/Monza with a manual trans set up for eighth mile racing, but will not be optimized for either.
I think that's the idea. If you supply all of the applicable information about your car and desired type of performance here, then I'm sure you'll get plenty of recommendations, advice, and pointers.
02-08-2010, 09:33 AM
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Re: Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
Ah. I see. Well basically I have this 85 Camaro, with the 305 HO in it. I plan on swapping in a 350 sometime soon, but would like to build it up a little before I do. the Camaro has highway gears, which I know nothing about, and would like to swap those for a quicker gear set, but don't know what to buy.
I would like to add a good sounding and better flowing exhaust than the stock ones that are on it, and then one of those kits , OR at least those parts in the kit. So I guess my questions are :
1) What is a decent mildly powerful cam similar to the one in the kit ? Use the one from the kit ?
2) What is a good set of heads ?
3) Do I need the double-roller timing chain ?
etc...
I would like to add a good sounding and better flowing exhaust than the stock ones that are on it, and then one of those kits , OR at least those parts in the kit. So I guess my questions are :
1) What is a decent mildly powerful cam similar to the one in the kit ? Use the one from the kit ?
2) What is a good set of heads ?
3) Do I need the double-roller timing chain ?
etc...
02-08-2010, 09:12 PM
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Car: 89 camaro
Engine: 383
Transmission: 350 tci 3000 stall
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Re: Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
Go to chevy high performance website or pick up a magizine. They build tons of 350's with different combos!
I would say comp xe274 cam
afr, vortec or dart heads
373 gears
a double roller timing chain basically has two chains instead of one therefore it will last longer being it wont strech out!
I would say comp xe274 cam
afr, vortec or dart heads
373 gears
a double roller timing chain basically has two chains instead of one therefore it will last longer being it wont strech out!
Last edited by jerrod75110; 02-08-2010 at 09:22 PM.
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02-08-2010, 10:48 PM
#8
Re: Holley V.S Edelbrock ! Let the tires burn !!
You still left out a lot of information like your transmission type, desired power level, type of performance, and desired fuel.
If you're not sure what to get, then your best bet is to hold off on the engine swap. It might be best to put in some practice time on your 305 to both get things in order for the future, and to help you figure out what you will be happy with.
Your 305 will take many of the same performance upgrades as any other generation 1 Chevy small-block, such as: Headers & exhaust, intake manifold, carburetor, fuel system, ignition system, torque converter or gears, retro- hydraulic roller camshaft & lifters, and some others.
If fuel mileage is a concern for a daily driver, then you might want to plan to run on 87 octane from the start, and avoid a couple of gas mileage killing modifications like large camshaft and your rear gear swap.
A rear gear swap isn't mandatory, and not necessarily best for a daily driver. You may be happier by swapping to a good quality torque 9.5" converter that will increase acceleration without the need for a rear gear swap. If you stay with a lock-up style converter, your fuel mileage won't go down.
You can also get a way with going a slight bit large on some other parts for your 305 like an Edelbrock RPM/airgap or similar design intake manifold, and investing in a quality set of stainless-steel 1.75" primary tube exhaust headers - (shorties are easier). These parts will work to boost power on your 305 and very easily swap to a 350 or 383/400 in the future.
If you don't know much about building engines, then you might want to consider buying a crate motor in the future. Just watch out for the cheap ones. If you have an honest motor machine shop in your area you may want to contract them to build your longblock to ensure good quality.
The matching of performance parts for this theoretical engine will depend greatly on all of those factors I mentioned earlier - and what your choices for gears and usage will be.
For instance, if you stick with a carburetor and up to 383 cubic inches for daily driver(DD), then you'll want to limit the intake port volume of the cylinder heads to no more than 180cc.
On a DD you will want to keep the camshaft intake duration in the 205* to 215* @ 0.050" range. Then you won't be required to increase mechanical compression ratio to the point of requiring more than 87 octane fuel.
If you are looking at aftermarket heads, then you want the flow ratings on your heads to be fairly close inline with the valve lift provided by your camshaft choice. If your cam only has 0.480" lift, then you don't need heads that flow great at 0.600" lift. For a DD you want heads with high swirl that have very good flow at low valve lifts. Mildly ported factory iron heads work well for DD's.
I'm assuming daily driver because that describes many of cars on this forum. Many of them are just weekend cars that are built for more power and sacrifice some ease of drivability and a good bit of fuel mileage - often requiring premium fuel.
If you're building a weekend car that will be carbureted and still automatic trans, AFR - Air Flow Research makes an ideal head. You'll still be looking for 180cc intake runner, small combustion chambers (64cc or less), and 23* valve angle. They aren't cheap, but they have great power potential.
A weekend car often has both a high stall torque converter, a built transmission with cooler & shift kit, and more rear gear ratio. With these added stall & gears your range of camshaft duration increases to anything from 220* to 240* @ 0.050" intake duration. Valve lift with the AFR heads would need to be around the 0.600" range. These larger camshafts will require higher mechanical compression ratio in the 11:1 - 12:1 range (with aluminum heads) in most cases, and require premium fuel or better.
The Edelbrock RPM/airgap style of intake manifold will still perform well on a weekend car with an automatic trans.
For a very fast DD that performs as well as most weekend cars, you might want to consider building a 383 stroker with a kit, or buy a crate version - shortblock, and add your own heads & intake. The AFR-180 heads and the RPM/airgap intake manifold, + 1.75" headers mentioned above work well on a 383. If you stick with mild (smaller) camshaft, the 383 will not require more rear gear or higher compression ratio. By milder cam I mean low on intake duration (215* range), but high on lift (0.500"+) to take advantage of the AFR's flow capability. With compression limited to 9.5:1 - 10.0:1 a 383 will run on 87 octane.
There's some starter ideas. When what you want becomes more clear, it will be easier to make more specific recommendations on a working combination. For now I'd say play with the 305 for a while by adding some better parts that can still be used on future engines.
IRT your questions:
1. I like the LPE 74216 hydraulic roller camshaft. It works very well for 305 - 383 engines with carburetors and automatic trans. It is 100% streetable, but requires retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters and a timing chain/gear with a cam button.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...egory_Code=C30
2. Ported stock heads - LB9,L98,LT1, ported SR/world products, AFR heads, TFS, Canfield, Ported Edelbrock heads, - and several others. Your final combination and budget would dictate the choice and level of porting/modification for each type of head. The porting levels and parts combinations for cylinder heads is endless. AFR 180's are great out of box heads - can't go wrong.
3. You do not need a double roller timing chain. A true roller type of chain design is superior to stock style chains, but you only need a single roller. If you convert to roller cam & lifters, then the timing gear has to match your cam type and have provision for a cam button to keep the camshaft from walking forward.
If you're not sure what to get, then your best bet is to hold off on the engine swap. It might be best to put in some practice time on your 305 to both get things in order for the future, and to help you figure out what you will be happy with.
Your 305 will take many of the same performance upgrades as any other generation 1 Chevy small-block, such as: Headers & exhaust, intake manifold, carburetor, fuel system, ignition system, torque converter or gears, retro- hydraulic roller camshaft & lifters, and some others.
If fuel mileage is a concern for a daily driver, then you might want to plan to run on 87 octane from the start, and avoid a couple of gas mileage killing modifications like large camshaft and your rear gear swap.
A rear gear swap isn't mandatory, and not necessarily best for a daily driver. You may be happier by swapping to a good quality torque 9.5" converter that will increase acceleration without the need for a rear gear swap. If you stay with a lock-up style converter, your fuel mileage won't go down.
You can also get a way with going a slight bit large on some other parts for your 305 like an Edelbrock RPM/airgap or similar design intake manifold, and investing in a quality set of stainless-steel 1.75" primary tube exhaust headers - (shorties are easier). These parts will work to boost power on your 305 and very easily swap to a 350 or 383/400 in the future.
If you don't know much about building engines, then you might want to consider buying a crate motor in the future. Just watch out for the cheap ones. If you have an honest motor machine shop in your area you may want to contract them to build your longblock to ensure good quality.
The matching of performance parts for this theoretical engine will depend greatly on all of those factors I mentioned earlier - and what your choices for gears and usage will be.
For instance, if you stick with a carburetor and up to 383 cubic inches for daily driver(DD), then you'll want to limit the intake port volume of the cylinder heads to no more than 180cc.
On a DD you will want to keep the camshaft intake duration in the 205* to 215* @ 0.050" range. Then you won't be required to increase mechanical compression ratio to the point of requiring more than 87 octane fuel.
If you are looking at aftermarket heads, then you want the flow ratings on your heads to be fairly close inline with the valve lift provided by your camshaft choice. If your cam only has 0.480" lift, then you don't need heads that flow great at 0.600" lift. For a DD you want heads with high swirl that have very good flow at low valve lifts. Mildly ported factory iron heads work well for DD's.
I'm assuming daily driver because that describes many of cars on this forum. Many of them are just weekend cars that are built for more power and sacrifice some ease of drivability and a good bit of fuel mileage - often requiring premium fuel.
If you're building a weekend car that will be carbureted and still automatic trans, AFR - Air Flow Research makes an ideal head. You'll still be looking for 180cc intake runner, small combustion chambers (64cc or less), and 23* valve angle. They aren't cheap, but they have great power potential.
A weekend car often has both a high stall torque converter, a built transmission with cooler & shift kit, and more rear gear ratio. With these added stall & gears your range of camshaft duration increases to anything from 220* to 240* @ 0.050" intake duration. Valve lift with the AFR heads would need to be around the 0.600" range. These larger camshafts will require higher mechanical compression ratio in the 11:1 - 12:1 range (with aluminum heads) in most cases, and require premium fuel or better.
The Edelbrock RPM/airgap style of intake manifold will still perform well on a weekend car with an automatic trans.
For a very fast DD that performs as well as most weekend cars, you might want to consider building a 383 stroker with a kit, or buy a crate version - shortblock, and add your own heads & intake. The AFR-180 heads and the RPM/airgap intake manifold, + 1.75" headers mentioned above work well on a 383. If you stick with mild (smaller) camshaft, the 383 will not require more rear gear or higher compression ratio. By milder cam I mean low on intake duration (215* range), but high on lift (0.500"+) to take advantage of the AFR's flow capability. With compression limited to 9.5:1 - 10.0:1 a 383 will run on 87 octane.
There's some starter ideas. When what you want becomes more clear, it will be easier to make more specific recommendations on a working combination. For now I'd say play with the 305 for a while by adding some better parts that can still be used on future engines.
IRT your questions:
1. I like the LPE 74216 hydraulic roller camshaft. It works very well for 305 - 383 engines with carburetors and automatic trans. It is 100% streetable, but requires retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters and a timing chain/gear with a cam button.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...egory_Code=C30
2. Ported stock heads - LB9,L98,LT1, ported SR/world products, AFR heads, TFS, Canfield, Ported Edelbrock heads, - and several others. Your final combination and budget would dictate the choice and level of porting/modification for each type of head. The porting levels and parts combinations for cylinder heads is endless. AFR 180's are great out of box heads - can't go wrong.
3. You do not need a double roller timing chain. A true roller type of chain design is superior to stock style chains, but you only need a single roller. If you convert to roller cam & lifters, then the timing gear has to match your cam type and have provision for a cam button to keep the camshaft from walking forward.
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