slow_90firebird

Well since my other thread about dealing with UMI was kinda polluted, I figured I would make a new one for the final result. Here are some pics:

slow_90firebird

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

WOW those look like they sit LOW! how does the car feel?

slow_90firebird

They dont really sit that low. The only reason you see them is because the car is a non-gfx car. If they go on a camaro or T/A then you wont see them at all. Also, I was squatting down to take those pics. But a few ppl were concerned about what they would look like with out GFX so I took pics.

The car seems to ride a little better. I cant actually say I noticed a big difference just driving around. If anything the t-tops squeak a little less, but they didnt stop squeaking all together (but they are t-tops after all, they are supposed to squeak). Also, the biggest difference is when the car pulls through the corners. Before, there was some "play" in the wheel during hard cornering where the wheel wouldnt affect the turn. Now, it feels more like it is on rails. A good wonderbar would probably compliment these well.

After tonight, though I dont think I am going to drive the car hard anymore. I am just too afraid of the welds letting go. I plan on taking it easy because I dont want the things to drop off the car.

jake wagoner

what is this wonderbar that you mention. i have an 86 trans am with t-top im puttin an lt1 and 6-speed into and i wana get sum subframes in before i start drivin it again. i am capable of stick welding but not able to wire weld but i am hoping to learn. im not sure if bolt ins are good enough since i do plan on modifing. any suggestions of what i should look at would b greatly appreciated.

slow_90firebird

The wonderbar bolts in under the sway bar bushings and connects the front subframe rails. The best looking one I have seen is the one TDS sells. It is actually the only thing UMI makes that I dont like the look of!

KYLE87

iTrader: (5)

the one TDS sells is amazing, I put one on my car recently thats never had one and I love it, way firmer steering and better cornering, I havent yet got SFC's, im debating UMI's and alstons, I dunno if I want it hanging down that much since i also have a non gound effects car, but the wonderbar is an awesome upgrade if you dont have one.

slow_90firebird

You could still get the UMI subframe connectors. Just get them black powdercoated if you dont want them to show. They dont really reduce ground clearence, there is still other stuff under the car that is way lower.

blk91rs

Saw the pics....Looks great. I hope to install my UMI SFC's later this month at a local shop. I was wondering if you were going to paint the weld areas with paint to prevent rust. Since the welding removed the factory under coating???

KYLE87

iTrader: (5)

yeah guess it wouldnt be to bad since the bottom of my car has black, it would probally blend with it and not be to bad, im surpirsed your result arent any better, I always hear how peoples cars no longer rattled and how much stiffer it felt.

slow_90firebird

Its snowing right now, so I really cant. Got home in the nick of time. After the snow and salt clears up, and we get another nice day, I definately need to grind the welds a little, and paint. However, I am also debating on having them welded more at a shop. They arent quite on there as good as I would like.

I think my result wasnt as good because we didnt weld them as much as we should have. Also, my car is still kinda low miles. It has 54,000 now, so the body might not be as "loose" as some other peoples cars. I really put them on as a preventative measure against that "killer hill" that will permanently tweak the car. Because my t-tops still dont leak a drop, and I didnt want them to start.

blk91rs

Sorry, forgot...about winter time. It never snows here but lots lots of dew that collects on your car at night every night....still as damaging....thats what happens when you live at sea level. Anyways....about the SFC's. I really need those things installed cause you can physically see where me car body (hardtop) is sagging. The paint has started to crack. I got some pics.....

slow_90firebird

Maybe later today I will give the new SFC's the big test. I might try jacking up the whole car by them. If the welds dont brake when I jack the car up, then, well they should be good enough for driving.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Could anyone post some pics of them on a car with gfx? I've been debating putting these on my car, but that seems really low. I have a IROC that i'll be autcrossing.

slow_90firebird

With the GFX they are completely invisible. Quadgoat has them on his 91-92 bird with the weird GFX and they still are invisible.

To give you an idea of how low they really are, if you are standing beside my car you cant see them. If you are about 10 feet away you still cant see them unless you bend down. Any farther than that they become visible.

Also, I have been noticing little things that they improove too. When I pull in or out of my driveway, they body doesent creak and groan as much. Also, on wet surfaces the right wheel always spins. Before, it used to hop really bad and jump all over the place. Now it spins even easier, but the back end doesent hop anymore, just plants into the ground.

Finally, for whatever reason, whenever I shift and let the clucth out there is a clunk noise right as it grabs and there is a subtle jerk. Now it is still there but the clunking noise isnt as loud.

I have a 200 mile round trip tomorrow, so I will see how they hold up. I keep checking the welds for cracks but so far so good.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

....I totally forgot about the complaining my IROC used to do when backing out into the street! However; it's now really apparent why you're not noticing a strong 'correction' in chassis flex- These F bodies were something else when brand new!!! Most of us have 3X the mileage on our chassis than yours does. You are very smart to add those SFC's now instead of waiting for the car to build up a flex. I still get quite a bit of noise out of my T-Top IROC. After a 150,000 mile life/20 years of some of the nation's worst roads, mine had developed the dreaded 'slinky effect'! I am expecting most of that to disipate once I've stripped out all the old & weak factory suspension parts.

How on Earth did you find such a nicely keptand low miliage formula???? No wonder the car looks so prestine in the pic's!!! Nitro

slow_90firebird

I found it on craigslist. They origionally wanted $5200 for it. Then 2 weeks later they wanted 4,900 for it. I went to look at it and took it for a drive. Fell in love instantly because EVERYTHING worked. Power mirrors, windows, all lights. Even both headlights came up when I bought it. And it didnt leak a drop. The guy was selling it for his sister and she bought it in 95 as a gift to herself after a divorce. However, she never got the hang of driving a 5-speed he said, and according to the papers they only put like 25 or 30k miles on between 95 and now. He said the car was always put away for winter. He said most of the time he would end up driving her for rides in it with her kids.

Oh btw the guy was a huge corvette guy. He had 3 at the house that day. 2 stingrays and an old CFI vette. He said he used to drive a camaro in his younger days, and that is why he told his sister to buy the firebird.

Here it was before I bought it:

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I'm sure you've found it to be worth every penny of the price. I know that I've spent more time and excess $$$ rebuilding and replacing so many parts because of my car's much higher miles. I'll end up having to replace everything that is supceptible to wear from bumper to bumper before I'm done. Just the high cost of all the worn & dried out rubber mouldings is enough to give a wealthy man reason for pause!

Plus, yours is a GREAT color for that body style. Stay away from stray shopping carts!!!! Nitro

slow_90firebird

Well, I wouldnt exactly say that it was worth every penny. I think I overpaid way too much. However, the alternatives were much worse. The second closest one I looked at was an 86'ish IROC with a 350TPI swapped in, tirck heads and edelbrock intake base, some fancy polished runners, longtube headers, and a lopey cam. Motor had like 36k on it. However, the body and 700R4 trans had 186k. All primer. Carpet was damp and moldy. And I opened the doors and the driver door almost hits the ground. Had to lift it back up to shut it.

I almost bought that one. The epoxy primer paint looked sick. However, I couldnt expect it to last. Plus $2100 is a little much for a shitty car with a nice motor.

slow_90firebird

Well, they made the trip from CT to NH and back. None of the welds broke, but they got really rusty from that salty slush on the roads up there. I cleaned them and sprayed some rustoleum yesterday to help.

Today I gave them the "floor jack test" and they FAILED MISERABLY. I thought that subframe connectors were suppoded to be a good jacking point for the car. I was hoping they would make life easier, by giving me a good place to jack that side of the car up (nascar lol), and use jack stands.

What I did was, on the driver side, Stuck the floor jack right where the 2 main bars are welded to form a Y. Started jacking up, but the car didnt move. Instead the connector rose about 1" up so that it was almost hidden behind the pinchweld. I was curious, because it looked like the connector was actually flexing. But in reality, it was rotating torsionally because Both weld points are one one side. So something flexes.

On the passenger side, it wasnt as bad. I stuck the jack on the forward, hidden part of the main SFC. It moved up about 1/2" then attemped to lift the weight of the car. A little better.

What has me stumped, is that on either side, when I was jacking on the way FORWARD part of the connector, the back wheel would come off the ground on that same side. But the front would not move as much because the connector was tucking up higher!

Maybe I really do need to get these things welded more. I wish an expert would pop in and say weather the welds in the pictures are good enough.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

My dads been in the welding business for about 20 years now and said those don't look good and that you should have cleaned the car where you will be welding to and you should have taken off more paint on the sfc. He said you should grind off the welds, clean it up and try again or get someone else to weld them.

flaming-ford

iTrader: (7)

no offense but, i agree, personally i have the same welding skill as you it seems but, i have never welded my own connectors......

either way if you weld on all the weldable points, not just the bottom of the connector i'd bet all money you would be fine but, thats my 2 cents.

at the same time though i still would rather have prettier stronger welds where you already welded it....

i had a guy at a shop i use to work at weld mine and they looked truly seemless and he did all 3 sides of the connectors where they hit on the subframe definetly beats how i would have personally done it.

slow_90firebird

I didnt weld them on myself, I had a friend do it.

These things just keep getting worse. The driver side front has started to "sag" a little lower ever since I gave it the floor jack test. Also, the whole car has gotten ridiculously "loose" feeling since the floor jack test. Finally, the t-tops are squeaking more than they ever have since I bought the car. Also, the back hatch is squeaking, and so is the side windows, and there are a ton of new noises from behind the interior panels too.

I am almost ready to cut these things out. I really screwed myself over by doing the self-install. They were such nice SFC's and expensive too. There is no way I am grinding those welds out, I could possibly cut them with a die-grinder but that would cut up the subframes too. If it gets any worse, I am going to have to just cut the bars, and leave the weld-points attached to the car. But I am trying to wait it out, because my mom got these for me for christmas, and if I cut them out that will be a waste of her hard earned money, and I will feel real bad and so will she.

userchemical

get a grinder out and start grinding man, if you can get them off easy i would. grind all the powder coat away from the weld plates, and then grind the weld points. and if you're going to try again, make sure you actually melt and fuse those metals together. looks like you're not penetrating enough. but yea i think you can do it yourself, just take your time, or better yet, get 2 pieces of metal and practice running a bead.

find some metal about the same thickness as the metal you are welding and practice welding lines. use different heat settings and see how it penetrates. thats some pretty hands on experience for you to try if you want. good luck on the install.

If by chance it doesn't work out and you don't end up using the SFC, msg me.

rocluvr0013

Those welds looks terrible. Grind them off as statedpreviously and pay 50 bucks to have someone weld them on properly.

RED86Z28

I would take the car to a shop that does that kind of work and let them grind it down and reweld it. The subframe connectors were badly welded but the jack test was a really bad move.

slow_90firebird

Well I didnt do the wending, my buddy did. He is actually a really good welder, you should see some of the custom chassis he makes. However, we were trying to do this in a limited area,and in a limited amount of time (before his parents got home). Also, I did grind the powdercoat off first with my 90* grinder and some sanding discs. It was raw metal. Also cleaned off all the weld points the night before under the car, down to raw metal.

The main problem was that he couldnt juse "run a bead" because when we jacked up the SFC's into location, nothing really lined up like it was supposed to. My subframes are all bent out of shape from me using lifts / floorjacks / jackstands on them. He was trying to bridge 1/8" to 3/16" gaps with weld just to get them on the car, because we couldnt bend them off the car.

As for the floor jack test, why was that stupid? Good SFC's are supposed to be a solid and safe jacking point of the car. They are not supposed to move at all, I cant figure why they did. I have been checking the welds periodically, and there have been no signs of stress cracks. I think the easiest way to do this, would be to go to a shop and get all the rest of the tabs welded, where they have a lift they can walk under and have room to see what they are welding.

The onlt reason I am hesitant about going to a shop, is that they only place in town that will do it, wants about $200 and I am not paying 200 that I dont have just to get SFC's put on.

RED86Z28

It was a bad move because you were putting a huge load on the front of the subframe connectors. The fronts were not fully welded on so they could easily bend because the load was not evenly distributed.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Grind those "welds" down to ZERO and start over. Those didn't even qualify as welds.

They may have stuck the MIG spool to the car, but that's about it. In your pics, I only saw ONE that MIGHT have penetrated halfway decently.

I don't think my FIRST attempt at MIG welding was that bad!

slow_90firebird

Well if I were to have them grinded down, I will have to pay somebody because there is no way I have the tools to do that. I have a cut-off wheel on my die grinder, but that would go right through the subframe like butter.

The welds are stronger than they look in the pics. It kinda looks like a really quick tack job, but in reality each litte "bead" took about 5 minutes. I told him I wanted them stronger, so he kept welding over and over the old weds. Thats why they look so big and globby. The first set of welds underneath were nothing like that.

online170

Guys they dont sit that low. Look closer, the are actually HIGHER than the y-pipe and the rest of the exhaust. Thanks for postin the pix btw...

And if you look underneath they are not lower than the frame rails.

As for pix WITH GFX, theres TONS on here. SEARCH!

slow_90firebird

So do you guys think I should just wait till I get money, then have them welded up more? Or do you think I should just cut them off and call it a complete loss? If I cut them off, I am going to leave the weld points attached. I will just make clean cuts thru the bars.

Also, if I do keep them on, is there any way to get them back tucked up like they are in the pics? Because now the front of the bar is about 1/4" lower than the rear, where as it was paralell to the rocker of the car before. Maybe floor jack them up a little, weld, then let he jack out? That might tweak the body tho. i dont even know.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

It sounds like they should be removed, the car taken to a body shop for a "frame" check & straightening (if needed), then put the SFCs back on.

Make sure everything is where it should be, before locking it in place.

Just my

KYLE87

iTrader: (5)

I hate to hear about the bad news with your SFC's. I would take everyones advice and have them redone professionally. I vary rarely would let any of my friends touch my car, especially with a welder. If you take it to a shop they have more experience with these and if they mess up its easier for them to fix it or replace it. hope it all works out.

slow_90firebird

well I am out of work now, with no job currently in sight. The only shop in town would want more than the cost of the SFC's just to install them. And the collision place wanted like 2 or 300 just to get the car on a frame machine, then it would be a few hundred more for the pull if it needed one.

I dont think the actual car is tweaked like it needs a pull. The subframes are just kinda bent from the floor jack, not like they are out of position or anything. More or less "out of shape." That is why I cant just go dump like another grand into getting these things cut off, frame pulled, then welded back on.

This pic shows the best how they are bent:

online170

You cant start bashing the SFC's if you did a sh*t job installing them.

Your buddy might be a good welder, but those SFC's show otherwise. Hes gonna do the job the way you wanted, it was your car, so he did them in limited space, in a hurry "before his parents got home", and put a whole bunch of beads on there (stronger).

You need fusion between the metals, adding more metal doesnt mean a whole lot unless the parent metal melted, and mixed around with the rod.

What kind of a grinder do you have? (electric, pneumatic?) If its a cutoff wheel on an electric one, you can buy a set of grinding discs for a couple bucks in almost any hardware store.

I love your logic, you constantly complain about how expensive they are, and how crappy the weld job is, but youd rather cut off the SFCs, and lose all your money, rather than pay a bit more to get them done right. By the way, if you just cut them off, youre eventually gonna have to remove the welded points right?

You could benefit from the saying "measure twice, cut once"......... Dont be so impulsive, think it through, you can still fix it.

KYLE87

iTrader: (5)

Everyone makes a mistake like this in life by letting a friend who you think is up to the task work on your car. happened to me once, luckily it wasnt this deep and was something minor. I understand the money thing, If anything I would wait till you are able to have them redone and then do it. Just remember it might cost more now since they have already been welded on, 200 to have them put on sounds like an aweful lot so I see why you tried the cheaper route.

For now if they wont stay how they are i would take them off my self the easiest way possible...I understand the mom thing too, Ive had experiences like that and it really does make you feel guilty if you dont use what she got you for you.

Good luck man, keep me updated

RED86Z28

Am I the only one who thinks $200 is not a bad deal?

slow_90firebird

Well so far, they dont seem like they are gonna fall off. The welds are still not cracked and are still on there just as good as they were in those pics. If I crawl underneath the car, I can pull my body weight up on them without them even moving a 1/16 inch. The problem is only when I try to lift the car by them.

The cutting wheel is a little 3" disc I have on my air die grinder from walmart. My compressor doesent keep up enough to cut more than a few seconds at a time either. And if I did cut them off, no I would probably just leave the weld points right on the car. Not gonna hurt anything down there.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Is it just me? Or does the SFC flange look bent DOWN? Not even touching the body?

I don't recall the SFC flanges being being less than 90 degree bends on the flanges.

In any case, he obviously didn't fully weld the seams. And, as for him hurrying to get them before mom got home, yet he's a chassis builder? I'd, personally, question a kid being a professional chassis builder. No offense to any of the younger people here, but "kid" & "chassis builder" in the same sentence?

slow_90firebird

No the SFC flange is definately 90.* The subframe is poked inwards though.

And he doesent just do chassis he does all kinds of hot rods. He was on that TV show working for Boyd Coddington. He said he is gonna teach me how to weld when we chop the bed on his 32 ford pickup he is restoring.

Al Hasse

I asked a local exhaust shop what they would charge before I had a couple of welder friends do mine. $90 per hour and the job typically takes 2 hours. My friends did a very nice job and all it cost was a long road trip with a bunch more 3rd gen friends for a weekend gathering and cruise. Well worth the trip because I was able to feel the difference on the way back home.

By comparison, I had mine welded up in the same fashion, in a home garage, in limited space, but the only difference was that we weren't in a hurry. I have some shots of some of the same welds, but from different angles. The bottle jack in shown was only to hold the connector in place while welding. Also shown is the use of round stock to fill the gap between the body and the connector for "stitch" welding down the sides.

slow_90firebird

Well you guys also took down the exhaust. That wasnt an option for me because all the bolts are rusted tight. I would have needed to cut the exhaust off, then welded it back in.

Im sure taking the exhaust down gives you alot more room to use the welding nozzle. We didnt even move mine, because the rubber hangers are are dry roting and I didnt want to give them a reason to break.

Also, i dont know if it makes a difference in how they look, but the gas on the welder ran out for a little while on the last welds. And for whatever reason, the nozzle tip kept falling off.

Maybe if I go to a shop eventually, I should have them stitch them to the floor?

Al, are you able to support your car by jacking up the SFC's, or do yours flex too?

Al Hasse

I can lift the whole side of the car with the jack placed anywhere on the sub frame connector. My passenger side door does stick a bit when the car is on jack stands. Mine isn't the only one like that, I have a friend whose driver side door won't open when the car is supported on jack stands.

The exhaust I suppose also made a difference, and so did the assembly of the passenger side connector off the car. I did have an exhaust leak when we finished putting the exhaust together - there's a spacer on the passenger side manifold - to - y-pipe junction that wouldn't seal.

online170

Whatever makes you happy man....

Definately a double standard goin on here. A lot of times people just do band-aid solutions, and half *** stuff everytime to save a buck, or learn, or watever reason. But other people demand perfection... Im sure youve heard "do it right the first time" alot also. This is a classic example of why.

Also, ever seen a roof truss. Its usually a triangle, with a beam going from the top of the triangle to the opposite side. They are extremely strong, and can support tons of weight (literally). but if you take one beam out, and try to put the same weight on it, it will snap..... Thats what you are trying to do with the jack. Its not strong yet, all the missing weld points are making it weak, which is why its warping.

Dont take it the wrong way, ive definately been there too, but basically they will turn out as good as you want them to.

1) DO NOT CUT THE SFC's OFF!!! unless you want to spend another $200 down the road on a new set. At which point you WILL have to get rid of the old weldpoints.
2) Either grind the welds off, or if you cant afford it, just leave it alone. They are bolted on at the back, so they arent goin anywhere, strap them on somehow at the front if youre that worried.
3) Wait for a sale at a hardware store, not sure what a big name for you guys is, but Walmart, or Canadian Tire has it for me. And buy yourself, a small propane torch, the kind you light with a lighter, and an electric grinder set. We got ours for $60 on a boxing day sale, had it for 3 years, i use it every year, and we've only used 3 of the 20 or so discs. The propane torch is all you need to remove any bolts. Heat it up till it starts to go slightly red (not as hot as acetylene, so be generous), and then splash with with a hose. Do this about 4 or 5 times, and bash the head of the bolt with a RUBBER mallet as hard as you can. It should break the rust free. This method hasnt failed me yet.
4) You wont find a good deal for welding if you walk into a professional welding shop, where they deal with customers that dont know an air filter from an oil filter. Look it up in the phone directory, or go out for a cruise and find the "INDUSTRIAL SECTOR" in your city or town. Theres one near my house, and its full of shops and stuff for people who drive semi-trucks and stuff like that, definately closed off from the public. Go in there, get a quote. Or even look up someone who does JUST welding. Theres a guy with a shop near my house, he does this. You just gotta look.

5) This is the most important... GET RID OF YOUR CUTOFF WHEELS!!! I get the impression its the only real tool you have, and you want to use it to solve everything. It can be a last resort sometimes, but definately not a solution. Id hate to hear about you cutting off your door if you locked the keys in the car....

Good luck.

Ricco

Lol.. Couldnt of said it better myself.. I am certainly no welder, I am just trying to learn.. I was in two minds about welding my own SFC's but seeing as I am not very experienced so far, i was also considering getting them done at a shop.. I guess this post has just helped me come to the right descision.

Edit : In an attempt at being constructive here... Do NOT just cut off the SFC's as was already mentioned, it will only mean buying some new ones down the road.. If anything, try grinding off those welds, even if you use ur cutoff wheel, being careful you should be able to just 'cut' through the weld and the SFC's will be easily removed.. Then go put them away somewhere until you can afford to take it to a shop and get them re-fitted properly.

quadgoat

iTrader: (1)

While I haven't tried in a while, I'm pretty sure I can lift the whole side of my car by jacking on the sfc, and the doors still work fine too

I agree with the advice they're giving you, I would NOT cut the connectors off your car. Find a shop that can help you do it right, clean up the bad welds and re-weld the connectors. I know it will cost money, but it will be worth it to know that they're installed properly and doing their job.

I had issues with my UMIs not fitting close up at the front by the subframe. I bolted them up in the back first, and then supported the front with a jack. I got to a point where the jack started lifting the car and the SFC still wasn't against the subframe! I let the jack down so that it wasn't supporting the car, and ended up having to bridge the gap with weld. I wasn't very happy/comfortable with it, but after spending some time "massaging" the welds I was fairly happy with the outcome, especially given my limited welding experience and my 110 volt Craftsman MIG welder

Here are some pics of mine, for those of you who haven't seen them



^ In this one you can see what I had to do to get the connector welded in place at the front



^ My "prettiest" weld on the whole install LOL



I also agree that one of the biggest weaknesses of your install is that you only welded on one of the surfaces, rather than both sides of the 90* mounting points. IMHO every area you can possibly weld on should be used to strengthen the install and structural integrity.

I don't know if any of this helped any, but it sure was a long post LOL. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and make sure you think about it and make a careful, educated decision on your next move. The SFCs and car are both VERY salvageable at this point, but a rush attempt at fixing or removing them could spell disaster for you! Be careful!

-Paul

P.S. These SFCs are, indeed, invisible on my car:

^ You can just see the front of the SFC in this shot, it's got orange overspray on it, and the GFX are not installed on the car.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

After seeing TWO sets of UMI SFCs, and how the cross-piece doesn't actually fit, but "floats", I know what brand I WOULDN'T go with.

Besides, $20 worth of steel, a few hours of time, and they charge $200? No thanks! I'll build my own.

Yeah, they are powdercoated, but that's not a concern for me. That's what paint is for. Besides, the welded ares would hafta be painted anyways afterwords.

mike_c

iTrader: (13)

Seeing how both cars have T-tops, maybe their frames were tweaked. Which is why I'm going to have my car pulled back into shape prior to having the SFC's installed.

Ricco

Dude, i hope you fixed your floor before you painted it? Your car looked almost as bad as mine does