ScatStroker

Which restraunt do you choose? The one that is busiest and with a wait or the place across the street with no one in it?

Good products result in high demand, it's fundamental. While they're very well probably losing business it has nothing to do with their quality and performance.

Besides, for mainstream heads the supply isn't even that bad, you just need to know where to look.

Brian

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Has anyone seen a tests with heads other than AFR's that make excess of 500hp on a 383 or 400 with a 195cc port? I am not asking to be a jerk, I honestly want to know. I looked at the TFS 23 CNC ported heads, TFS said for the amount of power I want to make I would have to use their 215R head. AFR said I can use there ported 195. I don't ever see tests of Brodix heads or Darts. And I don't believe everything I read in car mags. I think it depends on who is paying there bills. Ever since I read the article in car craft saying that 12 inch convertors are better than 9.5in. After that. I don't put much stock in car mags.

If I could spend less money and make just as much power I would, heck I think anyone would.

shaggy56

The Brodix heads make some serious power in unported form. I think I read a thread about how well the Track 1s flow unported. The Track 1s are a 221 cc head but I wonder how well the smaller CC heads do in comparison.

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

well it may be true that some companies pay off mags. but i dont see how AFR could pay all of the mags off. i have yet to see a mag that didnt prefer the AFRs. and dont just look at the mags. most major engine builders use the AFR brand. dont get me wrong thou, ill buy whatever makes my car faster.
but honestly i thought this thread was titled "New AFR Eliminator Heads", not bash AFR.
every one is intitled to there own opinion thou.

ScatStroker

I'm sure this is "too biased" but it was done by an independent dealer, not AFR.

AFR SBC 195 Street Heads ***New Eliminator Series*** Discount AFR 195's IN STOCK @ ADperformance.com

or

Air Flow Research


Brian

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I admit scat, I am torn between the street heads and the comp ported versions.

I know what you said in a earlier post the street heads would be enough for my application.

I am running the same setup as the 383 in that test except mine is a 406, and I will have closer to 10.5:1 compression.

With the street heads, that much power would be enough for me

You said you have the street heads in stock?

ScatStroker

Jay,

Its always nice to have more than you want

If you can wait I'd consider a 210, depending on the application. Otherwise either 195 is going to work well. The street version is 95% of the Comp version - Is it worth it to you to spend the money for every last bit?

Yes, I have both 180's and straight and angle 195's on the shelf with more in at the end of this week.

Brian

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

anyone actually go online to LS1tech and talk directly to some of the big head manufacturers? the guy from AFR is on there as well as Patriot heads. They put lots of good words on their products on that site. they posted some details on teh products as well as flow numbers. Any questions on the heads should be asked to those guys on that site. from what i see, the new eliminator will be the best 23 degree head on the market. the patriot heads are also great heads with promising flow potential...sporting a great I/E ratio, they are fairly cheap considering what u get, at around 1300 a set assembled with .650inch lift springs. they both should dominate over the other brands of 23 degree heads

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

For me, no, it's not worth another 600 bucks to make up that 5%. I will have enough power as it is. Here in the next two weeks I am going to order a set of 195's. It looks like I am going to get a set with angle spark plugs. I have another thread and with my SLP headers, the angle plugs are suppose to work well.

I have a question. I will obviously need steam holes drilled in the heads, is that something you can do? or do I need to take them to my machine shop?

Also, on that page that you linked a few posts up, with the dyno of the 383 build. It says something about don't port the intake to the 1205 gasket because it doesn't fit the heads exactly? What does that mean? I was planning on atleast gasket matching the intake.

One last thing. I have always heard about how AFR nickle and dimes you to death. What I am saying is, lets say the heads are 1399, what springs does that come with? Are they already drilled for temp sending units. I have heard people spending over 2000 grand for heads that started out 1400. I'm just wondering how?

shaggy56

I hear about this alot too. You can get fully CNC'ed heads from any other manufacture that flow as good or better for around $2000

ScatStroker

We can order the head with a steam hole or we can do it here locally (about a week.) You can also have it done at your local machine shop.

The gasket isn't a perfect match to the AFR port, hence the recommendation not to just port match them.

AFR's new Eliminator heads come with a .600 Hyd Roller Spring. If you're going above that their upgrade is about $75 - Not whopping by any means. The steam holes are going to be additional anywhere, not just AFR. The heads truely are ready to bolt on, but depending on the application are modified to match what someone wants to do with them, same as any manufacture.

Also keep in mind that the hardware package on the new Eliminators is different, and better, than that offered on the previous version.

Brian

vernw

iTrader: (2)

And how do you determine if they're properly matched? My cam is a Comp hydraulic roller (218-224 dur @.050, lift .520-.525 w/1.6, 112 LSA altho I may shift to a 220-230 duration cam). The heads will be the AFR 195s (not Eliminators) with the upgraded 1.530 springs. Intake will either be my ported SR or - most likely - a converted LT1 intake.

ScatStroker

What was done to the heads to increase the price? What configuration were they? Do you know why the price changed or are you just assuming? How do upgrades for AFR heads for specific needs make them any different than any other manufacture?

Seriously Shaggy you've done nothing but slam the heads without ANY personal experience. Your posts are constantly "I heard this" and "I heard that." You own Pro Toplines NOT AFR's.

You have ZERO personal experience with which to constantly slam these heads.

You're entitled to your opinion, everyone is, but you seem to have a personal agenda to continue to bring up anything you possibly can against AFR. Support your opinion and bring proof and examples, not "I heards."

It's nothing personal but you continue to belittle a product that you have no experience with and your past two points have both been without support, as you have NEVER have owned the product ("I hear Brodix makes good power" and "Yea, I heard they nickle and dime you.")

Brian

Guest

IIRC they used to charge for centerbolts, dont see that on the new price list... probably since the new heads are dual pattern. Also they'd charge for the temp sensor and fan switch holes, something others did not and do not charge extra for. Given what the exterior of the new heads look like and browsing the price list, looks like things are changing over at AFR probably due to complaints... looks to me like they're trying to be comparable to everyone else and thats a good thing.

Shagwell

Did you read my 2nd post? Matching/proper valve train has little to do with needing a rev kit or not. A rev kit controls the lifters, not the valves. No matter how much spring you run or how good of pushrods or other valve train components, a rev kit is not a band-aid, its just another high-po part. I'm also not saying you can't go past 7k w/o one. - The cam lobe is pushing the lifter away from it. The only thing pushing it back is the valve spring. When you have heavy lifters at high rpm (hyd roller) or a solid cam that has lash, a rev kit keeps the lifter in contact with the cam, thus making it less likely to break a lifter and allowing for smoother operation. Higher rpm motors require better/stiffer valve springs to close the valves fast enough. Those larger springs hit the lifters that much harder.
- this is the last I will say of this in this thread, I'm too far off topic -

I have been up close and personal with 3 sets of afr heads. Not my own, but I have a good friend running a cylinder head shop, and I'm a racer with friends. Personally I think they're a great head, I just don't see that they're worth any more money or wait than the rest. In a class car that has specific requirements, then maybe there's justice in a slightly better flowing head. On the street....well, my 4001lb vert runs 11.7's na with a 355, would I honestly be any faster with AFR's than my 200cc Toplines? I highly doubt it.

- I only try to give input on good/bad that I have personally done/seen. Heresay is worthless to me. I'm waiting for someone to get some of these heads on a car and gives us some numbers. Dyno/track and whats the combination?

shaggy56

Wow I would really take a chill pill. Im asking questions and sorry but you word is no different than any other person on the net that deals with heads. Im sorry when I buy heads I dont just jump in head first without looking. Theres lots of different opinions so its hard to just take one opinion. Your talking a big wad of dough to fork over so forgive me for being thorough. The thing about Brodix heads came off the Mike Stark bulletin board btw. I didnt think he was just anyone.


Creative Flow Management

ScatStroker

Shaggy,

100% agree - It is a big purchase and everyone wants to make a good decision when they do it. It's just that every reply you post is negative and stated as a fact when it's actually a second party "I heard."

I don't expect anyone to take our opinion as the only correct opinion. However, I deal with the heads everyday personally and have a lot of direct experience with them, not secondary. As I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when posts continue to attack a product without support or personal experience there is a point where it needs to stop.


On a brighter note we're still holding up for Engine Master's We were edged by .37 of a point to second place but as long as we make the finals I don't care where we qualified.

Brian

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

First off I think you need to slow down second you need to read what you typing I'm not trying to be a **** but your saying the valve spring controls the valve and the rev kit controls the lifter........

Lets look at this logically you have a cam that pushes a lifter up which has a push rod ontop of it that actuates a rocter that opens the valve........ Your saying that the rev kit is to keep the lifter tight to the cam because a heavier hydro lifter or a solid roller thats ramping up very fast will come off the lobe due to its upwards momentum and that the rev kit is the cure for that by applying pressure directly to the lifter........

So bassically your adding a second valvespring directly on the lifter to aid the valvespring so it doesent need as high of a rate to keep the lifter firmly planted on the lobe like its suppossed to thus adding more parts with potential to break for the sake of reliability seems a little to me but whatever works for you is more than fine by me

Thanks
AL

vernw

iTrader: (2)

And here I am with a brand new unused set of AFR 195s wishing I'd gotten the Eliminator 195s for my 383. Oh well, guess I'll just have to "make do"......

Grim Reaper

You best toss those "useless hunks of junk" out and get those Eliminators instead. Just let me know when toss them in the trash. I am not beyond dumpster diving for a set of discarded AFRs

Blazin4x4

So its less of a hassle to find a shop you can trust that can make more power and doesn't make you wait for getting your cheaper heads ground on? Where are these flow and dyno numbers guys are getting?

seems like your talking it but not walking it.

shaggy56

Flow? Dyno numbers? What are you talking about? If you want flow and dyno numbers look around. Go to Stevesnovasite.com and check out some different setups since I hang out their more often. I just finished reading someone who built a powerhouse motor with 9.5:1 comp and made some pretty nice numbers and he wasnt running AFR heads. Do a search on this board and check out what the moderators are running. I ask around and see what everyone is running and how their engine is performing. Its really not all that difficult. The only flow numbers I posted was from someone on Stevesnovasite.com who had his heads flowed. I checked out a few guys with already ported heads on CFM bulletin board. Really its not all that hard. The guys on this board are pretty straight forward if you PM them. I can tell you the power numbers and results vary from person to person as well the heads they are using. I dont want to get into a fighting match about which heads are better but would like to see everything on the table about whats out there and what would be a great match for what I want to do. Im not doubting the AFRs performance but some guys are doing lots of different things with different heads and I like to weigh out my options.

Guest

The guy who does my engine work refuses to use AFR's (I'll save you from that explanation) and uses Brodix pretty much exclusively. He has quite a few class winners under his belt. So... it means you dont necessarily need a certain head to get the most, I think more falls into the particular combo and an appropriate set of heads gets you in the right direction.

He did, however, fix up my AFR's and port them.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Scat,

Even though there has been some AFR bashing in this thread maybe it will show that AFR has changed some of their problems they have had in the past. There has always been two sides, the people who love AFRs, and the people who say they are two expensive and run something else.

How long will it be till you have in stock angle spark plug, not L98 angle, with 65cc chambers?

also, do you have any idea why AFR deviated from the standard 64cc/76cc that pretty much everyone uses?

So not port matching the air gap intake will not have that big of loss on performance? I have heard it both ways.

To answer your question in the other thread I posted in, the comp cam part number for the valve springs are 986-16 which is the standard spring, and 26986-16 which is their beehive spring. With 1.6 rockers I will have .554/.576 lift. It's a hyd roller.

69 Ghost

iTrader: (1)

Guys I have AFR's for one reason I have a buddy that has been racing for years and has had a number of go fast parts inlcuding Brodix. He said hands down AFR's are the best he has ever used. He won his class last year and has been slugging it out with a buddy of his that runs Brodix heads. He says both heads are good but the AFR's have the edge over his buddy with the Brodix's. He attributes it to the AFR's and convinced me to get 195's over a set of Fastburns. You can get a port job for cheaper than the Comp prices. His were done by Superior here in So Cal. When I ordered my heads it took a very long time and yes there were problems. My personal opinion is the everyday guy gets knocked out of line for their 'personal' customers which I am sure are mainly well known racers. I know if you order directly from them you will have a better time than from a shop that sells them. Regardless what anybody says there are a number of intangibles in anything and people talk about combos. One thing I have always seen in any mag article bolt on a set of AFR's and you make HP. I had some World S/R's and you cannot say the same thing about those. For an everyday driver and a normal guy yea the cheaper heads will suffice.

shaggy56

I think its become the better bang for the buck scenario thats really hurting the data thats being put out. I have gotten to the point that I dont care about a better bang for the buck idea. Granted any head can say I will get you there cheaper but forget to point out well for this much more you will get their faster.

69 Ghost

iTrader: (1)

Agreed but also keep in mind that it is always the last bit of performance that costs the most money. I always try for 90% of the performance for 50% of the price.

shaggy56

I just dont want to cheapen out on the most important thing of an engine build which seems to be heads. I could always try to save money elsewhere.

Shagwell

formula350sd - You're not getting the point. Yes, the vs pushes the lifter back down, but in a solid lifter application or a high rpm hyd roller, the lifter will still loose contact with the cam. With a solid, it's not a matter of rpm, its valve lash. .020-.030 lash means .020-.030 gap between the cam and the lifter while running, although you're setting it between the rocker and the valve, at rpm engine rpm, the lifter will stay up. For hyd roller, the lifters are just overly heavy for rpm. Yes, the vs still pushes it back, but the weight of the lifter bady can/will out do the oil/spring inside the lifter, causing some colapse, and thus loss of contact with the cam. I've ate up 4 set of lifters. 2 sets while running springs spec'd for my application, 2 set while running doubles that are about 10lbs @ seat over reccomended for hyd lifters, and being doubles they're quite a bit over at valve lift. - also, I've never heard of or seen a broken rev kit. There's nothing to break unless somethings installed wrong.
- If you wish to continue this discussion, please feel free to PM me, we're off topic of the thread. - I'm not trying to argue with you, just explaining the point of a rev kit.

- as for the heads, there's an old saying..."you build the bottom end to stay together, the top end makes your horsepower."
What makes them better? Flow numbers aren't enough when I've seen the same power from different heads. Do they charge extra for temp sender holes/other OE application neccessities? If so, that's serious bs. - What makes then worth and more money or more wait to recieve them?

QuickStyle

HD4mula

No they don't charge extra for that. I have read it several times here and I see people just repeating it with no real know how Mine had all the required holes for the basic price.
On the "which heads make more power" topic it is my opinion that the only way to know is to use the same engine in a dyno and swap heads similar to mags tests. See the recent CHP where they tested about 10 different heads.
If a guy with AFR heads in one engine makes more power than another guy with Trickflow in another engine that tells me nothing. There is no basis for comparison because the base engines are different and there are so many variables that cannot be controlled.

shaggy56

Wait a minute. I didnt get to read that article. In that test did they run fully CNC'ed heads vs an as cast heads? I want to see fully CNC head comparison and I dont care which head actually costed more.

Guest

But they used to. Search and ye shall find. I'm sure its whiners like me that changed that, so say thanks.

HD4mula

I was reffering to the test process and not that they tested fully CNC heads. The heads in that article were all $1025 or less.

Blazin4x4

I mean your saying alot of this guy used and I heard type sentences...and yeah you can make power without afrs... but they are the best head for power, flow, and price for an out of th box aluminum head period. most of the guys making big numbers have alot of money in their headwork... I'd like to see a head to head comparison not "well this motor made 450 hp without afrs they can't be THAT good" I will say this again for the money your can't beat the power of afrs... most of the guys making good power with low cash output are running iron heads... iron is cheaper. As for buying a cheap head and having work done to it... do some work to afrs and see how much power it makes. Then you can say there better ways to go then afrs but I'd like to see any aluminum head setup that's brand new that will make as much power as afrs for 1400 bucks.

people can get mislead very easily when you say things without actually having tried both yourself or having proof one way or the other.

shaggy56

So Blazin4X4 do you own a flow shop that makes you an expert on the best heads? What are you running now and whats your timeslips like? I realize they are a great value but that alone will not make my descision.

Blazin4x4

Nope. I just pay attention to magazine tests and actual comparisons not how much power x motor has with x heads because that means about jack diddly. I'm done bickering sorry fellas.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

I'll say thanks! That and the centerbolt drilling with there **** springs kind of turned me off from them, $1300 was turning into $1650+ with all little extra's that was needed to make them work in are cars.

Must say now with these new Eliminator heads and the extra's added in I think I might just have to order a set over the winter and see what this stock block can handle now where did I put that 17Ibs pulley........

shaggy56

From all this reading Im starting to lean towards the Canfield/Jegs heads. They seem to produce enough flow for any of my needs.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

I'll stick with the AFRs, especially since I already have a new set sitting in the garage in the original bags waiting for me to install them.... LOL

Guest

I havent seen or heard of any bad results with Canfield heads (they perform quite well actually), you just dont see them around much.

Not sure why AFR never offered the dual pattern (centerbolt/perimeter bolt) arrangement before. I know they machine the gasket rail (you can see this on the new Eliminator heads as well), but I found that to be unnecessary when I took the perimeter bolt AFR's I had and machined them to accept centerbolts... dont try that one at home. Both the stock cover and my aftermarket covers had clearance above the gasket rail and even if they didnt, would have only needed slight modification to the cover to clear the perimeter bolt bosses.

69 Ghost

iTrader: (1)

You probably have an older set of heads. AFR continually improves on their designs and I specifically requested a CB pattern. The response was they all come with dual patterns OTB. That was 2 years ago.

BTW. Vern was asking about a rev kit. Note the new eliminators are not showing those for now. The new design is like the Fastburns/LS head styles. Very light hardware to eliminate that need. Comps beehive springs are along some of the same guidelines. Elimination of weight at the valve end.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Intelesting, velly intelesting!!!

Shagwell

I wasn't impressed with that article. They didn't do apples for apples. Some heads were iron, some aluminum. Some had 64cc chambers, some 72....I realize that test was more of a bang for your buck deal, but they should have atleast kept the runner cc's compatible and the chamber sizes the same.
Again, the need for a rev-kit has little to do with the valve train in the heads. A rev-kit is used to control the lifter, meaning keep it in contact with the cam. At any rpm the cam is pushing the lifter away from center, the only thing pushing it back down is the valve spring. With a solid cam or an hyd roller, this becomes a problem. For solid cams, valve lash means the lifter leaves the cam lobe and is smacked back by the valve spring. For hyd rollers they're just overly heavy, and when turned at higher rpm, the weight of the lifter can colapse the oil/spring inside the lifter body, thus causing the lifter to leave the cam and be smacked back by the valve spring. This "smack" can/will break the lifter(ask me how I know....)
I know of atleast one set. I haven't seen actually numbers on them yet, but I got to take the car for a spin and it felt real solid. - At one point Competition Products had them pretty cheap.

- It's good to know that AFR is finally offering OE features without charging extra. I also like that they finally have put decent valve train in their assembled packages. I am very interested to see some dyno/track numbers from these heads...

HD4mula

Don't you get it? The example was of a fair head test procedure and not about the heads tested. Heads configs were different but the base test mule was the same. At least it show some disadvantages that they even mention like some heads with chambers too big (i.e lower compression) as you mention.

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

Although this is true I think your missing his point he is saying that a comparo between similar sized heads with similar sized chambers on the same test bottem end would show you alot more about a perticular heads performance and I tend to agree with him if they rounded up 10 or more different 195 to 200 cc heads with 64 cc chambers and dynoed them all on the same short-block and cam it would tell you alot more about the heads than what they did in that article

HD4mula

Well no, that is the perfect head test that I say we need instead of quoting a head on an engine and a different head in another engine. Closest thing but in this case with different heads is the CHP test.

shaggy56

Thats the thing you will never see a test that compares everything on an equal test. Thats the racing "code of silence" so do speak. The only way to know is to look at engines that other people are running and comparing them to what someone else is running as long as gearing, head cc, cubic inches, etc., etc. that equaly compares everything. It doesnt make sense to compare a large cc head to a small cc head with the same cam and cubes because its not properly matching the components like every engine builder will quote till your ears bleed. There are like 6 different catagories of engine building going from pure street to all out racing and every catagory would require a particular port area in the head. Its actually possible to have too much flow if you dont need it. If you have an engine that has a usable intake CFM of 275 then a head that flows 300 cfm is just wasted. They actually have a formula to decide this.
Its (bore x bore x stroke x rpm x .00353)/614

Here is an example:
A 383, 4.030 bore, 3.75 stroke, opperates at 7000 RPM.

4.030 x 4.030 x 3.75 x 7000 x .00353/614 = 2.45 minimum cross section.

Here are some examples of minimum cross sections

edelbrock performer rpm ....1.43.............170
vortec......................1.66.............170
tfs195......................1.93.............195
afr 180.....................1.93.............180
afr 195.....................1.98.............195
afr 210.....................2.05.............210
dart pro 200................2.06.............200
dart pro 215................2.14.............215
brodix track 1 .............2.30.............221
dart pro 1 230..............2.40.............230
edelbrock 23 high port .....2.53.............238
edelbrock 18 deg............2.71.............266
tfs 18 deg..................2.80.............250

Grim Reaper

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

I agree with you unless an enthusiest tests the heads by himself you will never see a fair comparo between them but that doesent mean I dont want to