89gta383

iTrader: (5)

These are roller cams, not flat tappet.

65panhed

This is just great.........I am preparing to fire my engine sunday and now I read this....Comp XE256-4 cam, with comp lifters,push rods, and roller tip rockers.......and I used the comp red break in lube to assemble........cam has been in car for 3 weeks..... This should be interesting I dont want to do this again.

383backinblack

i wouldnt worry about it, a few cases out of hundreds of thousands of perfectly running comp products.


hundreds of pro teams and engine builders use comp valve gear, and never have problems

65panhed

Yeah now i'm worried about the break in lube missing from the cam lobes and lifter.bottoms and side................... I will pump up the engine and the pump flows 60 psi so I guess that i will wait and see..........go to church and ask the Lord for a favor on my behalf.........................thanx ponticgtp

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

if its a flat tappet cam, not good. prelubing the engine wont really get much oil on the lobes at all. this is what the moly break in lube is mainly for....

roller cam, i wouldnt sweat it i dont think.

65panhed

hydraulic flat tappet cam with L98 alum heads with the stiffer valve springs for lift to .525 I guess we will see

mikobu3

damm it , why didn;t you ****;s post this earlier

1986 305 tpi 20 000 original miles

comp xtreme energy 212-218 449 456 112 lsa , i also bought there kit , pushrods, lifters, retainers, springs ect,,, ported the 416 heads with bigger 1.94 intake valves

you guys are scaring the **** out of me here ,

been in car since may 6 , i assume everything is going well


non roller cam

i had a licensed mechanic put it in ,

F-BIRD'88

If it's been in the car that long it will likely have a normal service life.
Recently many of the oil companies have removed special anti-scuff additives ( Zinc) from most oils. ( most engine are roller cammed now so they think you won;t need it) These anti-scuff additives are what protect the parts in your engine that have metal to metal contact like flat tappet cams and lifters. You can add these zinc additives back in by adding a can/bottle of GM "E.O.S." (engine oil supplement) to each oil change. This stuff is not snake oil, it works. Will allow your flat tappet cammed motor to last a lot longer. Many of the cam grinding companies are recommending it. This is still the only additive that GM recommends you add to your oil on mny car. There is solid engineering behind it. Get some from your GM parts dealer.

hear it from the horses mouth

Does you oil have the zinc additive?

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

My new Comp Pro Magnum R Series hydraulic roller lifters came friday. Brand new sealed in the package lifters mind you......













The lifters are bone dry, the wheels dont turn and are notchy when they do, the plastic didnt break, it disinigrated. Its everywhere inside the lifters etc....

I dont care how long the lifters could have sat on the shelf, I've bought other lifters, and normally that is the nastiest most slippery oil they use on those lifters, not to mention the bearings being packed with grease.

This has been one pathetic year dealing with Comp.

fb305svs

great guess i know what to check when i pull the valve covers off my motor... i'm running 280rwhp with a motor that pulled 430 on the dyno...

guess we'll see now wont we... have a comp 288 roller in it now..

tom3

Where did you get those lifters from? Man, that is pathetic! Looks like an Ebay scam with used parts.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

What's the p/n for the EOS?

Crayz9000

We run Valvoline racing oil in almost all of our cars. It's a bit more expensive than your plain joe oil, but that stuff works... we nursed along an old 3.8L V6 that had its bottom end bearings out for about a *year* before it started burning enough oil to fail smog check. Thing was still running when we pulled it out, too.

91formulaSS

You really lost 150 HP through a T-5?

fb305svs

yup... before i go back (i lost all my top end, bottom end is still there, 406 on the engine dyno, 320 on the chassis dyno), anyways, gonna drop the exhuast and see if thats part of the issue, but i gotta check everything now... 70rwhp is a lot to be off just due to exhuast

B4Ctom1

no it isnt, who have you been listening to? your car is a textbook example of the 20% rule.

Most cars exceed the 20% rule, your ride must me pretty nice if it can get 320 RW off a 406 engine dyno. Not only that, it shows unlike others that you got what you paid for when you got your engine dynoed. you lost 86 hp, 1/5 or 20% of 406 hp is 81.2 I would say you have one mother f***ing efficient ride!!! I would have figured it for a stick shift with that kind of efficiency not an auto. wow!

can you post your dyno sheets so that others can see them and understand them as the example to try to achieve??

fb305svs

hey tom - sorry man i wasnt clear and you mis read -

motor engine dynoed at 433hp and 406ftlbs...

chassis dynoed with all the same stuff on the motor except for the header back exhuast with 280rwhp and 320rwtrq

What i was saying is that my torque is with in reason - my hp is not, the motor now falls flat on its face on the top end... I feel like the car was much faster in the months it was out right after everything got done. Then in the spring the car has felt like a dog since, and i haven't found anything wrong with it yet!

before the next dyno run i'm gonna measure the lift on each valve, re adjust the valves and take apart the distributor (for some strange reason it drops 4* of timing out at the same rpm everytime... mechanical advance shouldnt do that! (motor is carbed)

i have a lot of things to check, but no damn time to do it... it will probably be winter before i do it, then when i slap a supercharger on it in the spring with an efi setup, everything up until now will be right out the window...

B4Ctom1

my bad, never mind

fb305svs

tom you amaze me... seriously... i serisouly apoligise however, because what i posted was confusing.. i have been working hard the last couple weeks and its wearin on me hard..

anyways...

engine dyno: 433hp, 406ftlbs

chassis dyno: 280hp, 320ftlbs

thats not a loss of 80 hp, thats a loss of 153hp. the torque is good - right on the money if you ask me. means i have something holding the top end of the motor back... i have alot of things to check to make sure... but the only thing that changed off the dyno was the header back exhuast. its still dual 3" off each header, but it y's to a 3" cat back... of which i feel is a good chunk of my problem.

B4Ctom1

well if it is any consolation

my 412 was:


.060 400

stock crank

350 rods

forged pistons

190-200cc pro-topline aluminum heads

ported edelbrock lower

super ram upper

58mm TB

24# SVO's

9.9:1 compression (too low for cam)

Crane Hyd roller # 119681 240/248 @ .050, 306/314 advertised, .558” ( .595" lift with my 1.6's) 114 lobe sep. .860" BASE CIRCLE

^^^ too big for intake and compression

running the stock chip (AUJP bin)

and stock fuel pressure made this very lean dyno run

fb305svs

yeah i remmeber your post abotu the fairly disappointing numbers...

i too have a pretty good feeling my compression is a bit low for the cam, but it still made decent power. i just need to figuer out this top end bug...

B4Ctom1

did you get A/F ratio charts with your dyno?

also that motor is going into the 2800# JYD and its nitous system.

Also, Im going to advance or retard the cam with a compression checker on it cranking it over until I get the highest pressure. before it goes in that car

fb305svs

yeah def a good plan - af was very fat on the chassis dyno, like 10:1... had to lean up the carb A LOT (like ok for WOT terrible for driving) to get it to run an 11:1 on the chassis dyno...

was tuned to 12.3:1 on the engine dyno...

B4Ctom1

wow why such different A/F rations dyno to dyno?

fb305svs

well i dont know, besides the obvious "not making as much power" reason, the only thing i can come up with is the exhuast is too corked up and its not letting the shorter lsa cam scavenge the exhuast...

Blackroc86

I had a shop install my XE294 and the lobes got wiped while breaking it in. Also talked to another shop in my area and he has had XE cams get wiped while breaking them in on the engine dyno using only the outer springs and plenty of lube.

Amazing how much damage that metal does in 10 minutes of runtime.

THEGENERAL

why is it that almost everyone that i hear had a problem with thier cam on breakin either had a shop or a mechanic install it and or break it in ??????

and people like myself and my brother have done this multiple times and never had one go bad yet and have been using these brand cams personally for a while now.....i just dont get it i guess...maybe we are doing something different or maybe we are getting the only good ones they make who knows but i will definatly buy thier crap as long as they want to make it

ljnowell

Yeah, comp cam crap hasnt done me wrong yet.

B4Ctom1

I know you don't want to hear this in your comp bashing thread but I have flattened cams from crane, comp and isky. All my fault over the years. I have NEVER seen a cam fail except in the case of a broken cam core, that was the fault of the manufacturer.

Momar

There were a at least a couple of the guys that have had their cams tested for harness, and they were soft. A lot of these may be user problems, but I honestly do believe that there were some bad cams made for a while.

Ben

B4Ctom1

they only hard face the actual lobes so if the test was performed on the other parts of the metal of course it will be soft

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, this thread was pointed out to me for a completely different reason, but reading through it I have to comment on the comp issue and a few other things.

First, I really, seriously doubt that there is any problem with comp cams. I’ve used a fair share of them myself and have never seen a problem, and work at a shop that sells almost nothing else, probably a few cams a week and haven’t seen any problems there either… ie, I have more of these things go through my hands then most of you will ever see, hell, I’ve probably installed more then a lot of you will ever see.

Second, in recent years there have been a bunch of reasons why people may have seen a disproportionate number of cam failures… high on that list are:
- changes in manufacturing techniques where there was a learning curve with most of the manufacturers,
- the domestic makers of most of the lifters ever sold went out of business a few years ago which resulted in the market suddenly being flooded with loads of cheap, mostly Chinese made, questionable quality lifters.
- The additive that used to be put in oil to prevent just this type of wear (zinc diphosphate) has been mandated out of the oil formulations by the new standards label, not because of performance reasons (on the contrary, it worked extremely well), but because of emissions reasons (when burned it destroys catalytic converters, making it difficult for manufacturers to meet the federally mandated emissions equipment warranty). This was such a big change that some OEMs tried to cancel warranties if someone used the newer rated oil in their vehicles (primarily BMW), and stores like NAPA and some motorcycle supplies have vowed to keep some of older standards meeting oils in stock as long as they can (you can also buy the stuff in a bottle over the counter at a GM dealership).

Lastly, Comp is a market leader in the field. The disadvantage with that position is that if X number of people are likely to monkey up the install of a particular product and you’re by far the market leader in selling the product, you can expect a proportionately large percentage of X to have happened with your product, and the unfortunate fact of life is that when people don’t understand that they did something wrong or what they did wrong they blame you, not themselves.

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

I came into this thread sharing a problem I had with a Comp roller cam. The *problem* I had was a soft cam. The *problem* I now have is a fubar*ed short block.

My engine builder tested it and found it soft. The engine builder in NY that had it custom cut for me found it soft. Comp said it was A-OK. I reckon if you spoke to Comp yourself, they will gladly tell you none were ever soft either. Hell, they'd be fools to say anything otherwise.

The point is this:

I never said Comp was crap, and I dont believe they are. My problem is with people coming on this board and singing the song of Comp supremecy, and how they dont put out any defective products.

EVERY COMPANY IN THIS WORLD HAS SOME TURNOVER AT SOME POINT! IT MIGHT NOT BE A LOT, IT MIGHT NOT BE OFTEN, BUT IT EXISTS! PERIOD.

I fully understand and fully agree with Crossfires version of how more product sold equals more chances for install screw-ups etc.
Now, for the part you forgot to mention.....

If X company sells X amount of products, X percentage of turnover is expected. When a company has the highest X amount of products sold, then the X percentage of turnover rises as well. Not rocket science, its just the way it is.

Summarizing what I've already said in earlier posts.....

I dont think Comp is a bad company. They have humans working there just like any other company. My problem is that I got a soft cam, they denied it, and were not willing to help with motor repair costs at all. I wont deny the fact they replaced the cam and rebuilt my lifters, but the rest of the motor is still lying in a pile, and I'm scrounging money to build a new one.

Thats the simple reason why I will not use Comp Cams again.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I’m not sure that I understand what you mean by turnover…

So I take it that you found a cam manufacturer that will cover the cost of your engine if their cam doesn’t agree with it? Who was it?

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

Turnover is defective products.
LOL. Dont beat around the bush, just say if you got a bad cam.
Not agreeing would be if someone ate a bean burrito with too much hot sauce on it.
No, I didnt find a company that would cover the cost, although I didnt ask either. The point is that I never intend to find this out again, and at the bare minimum a company should take responsibility enough to admit they sent out a faulty product.
Noones perfect, and I'm not sure who expects anyone to be. The people that can accept not being perfect are the ones that attempt to make some right from a wrong instead of just denying everything.

ME Leigh

So comp is taking back cam, even if you don't use their springs? I was gonna get a k-kit but i can piece together parts for $200 instead of $300.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I’m not beating around the bush, I was being polite.

To be blunt (IE dropping the polite BS), in 75% of cases I would suspect user error, and in 24% of the remaining cases I would suspect other hardware problems (like bad lifters, some crap in the oil/oil galleys which might fit under user error…).

Since these things basically get a surface heat treat you’d have a pretty hard time proving that you got a bad cam, basically you’d have to do a brinell test on the center of a lobe that doesn’t show any wear. Testing a worn lobe or the more typical “file test” would ensure “up, it’s got a soft lobe” results which in reality would mean absolutely nothing.

None of us besides you know what that conversation with them went like, but the evidence that we have from you (that they offered to replace/rebuild their parts) suggests that they did make some effort to make you happy and took some responsibility for the product. I don’t think that you’ll find any cam co that will even consider replacing the rest of the engine, even if the cam was clearly defective. As a matter of fact, most “speed parts” are sold with a disclaimer that can roughly be boiled down to “we’re not responsible for any damage that may happen to any other part of the car, you, small fuzzy woodland creatures… as the result of the use of our product.” I mean come on, you’re talking about something designed to put a greater then originally designed load on everything else in the vehicle.

Working in the industry I can tell you that probably a good 75% or greater of the defective returns that I accept are most likely the result of something dumb that the buyer did, but I do it to try to keep people happy/coming back.

Now I’m not saying all this to pick on you. There is the rather small chance that you may have actually gotten a bad cam. But even if that was the case, I’m not sure what else you could realistically expect them to do about it besides replacing what they supplied that was bad…

burnout88

Just the fact that this post exists and has had so many replies tells you Comp has a problem with its product that has become noticable to the public. Once a problem becomes this noticable to the public its a bigger problem then they want to let everyone know about. So the company begins the deny it is happening campaign.

I am also sick of every one singing the praises of this company. I know three people who each put in a comp cam and everyone one of them went flat. The people installing them had done cam swaps probably a dozen other times.

So the experience I have seen with them is a 100% failure rate.

What are the odds of that? I would say it is a garbage product for me to see that happen three times on 3 different motors with three completely different people.

Sure most defect's are do the users. But there is cleary a problem with the product.

B4Ctom1

and comp is bad compared too....who?

I can flatten anyones cam, all I have to do is read the instructions, run the wrong springs wrong installed height, guess that the RPM is high enough, crank the engine over about a million times trying to get it to start, rub all the lube off the cam trying to get it into the block, guestimate how long the engine has been running breaking in the cam, get impatient and drive it before it is broken in.

Then when anyone suggests I did anything other than what the instructions call for "because I did it rite like the 'structions swear on my mothers grave!" and "screw you I don't care what you say, I did it rite dood because my uncles mothers son knows a mechanic and he never messes up!" and "so I don't care what you said, I did it rite..."

p.s. whats next? "I don't like Richmond gears dood they always whine..."

Inwo

Personally I can't stand slicks because they have terrible traction in the rain.

ME Leigh

I don't know how they spell it in Wyoming, but in Idaho its spelled right, sorry just messing with you.

B4Ctom1

yes yes I know, dood is spelled dude too, but when I make posts like this I have to leave things mispelled so that when someone disagrees with me the only recourse they have is to harp on my spelling as thier only valid arguement response, and you ruined it!

ljnowell

Yes, every company will havea bad product slip out from time to time. But, IMO there is not a chance in hell that all three of your friends had cams fail like that, and it wasnt thier faults. Sure, maybe one of them was bad, but not all three. Its more than not likely.

I have ONLY put comp cams in my engines. For a long time. When I have changed cams for other people its always a comp. When my brother, thegeneral, does it its the same way. Between the two of us, we have never lost a comp cam. That is a lot of cams too. Never not one.

As far as the roller cam issue, I dont know. It is definately something different.

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

When moderators partake in ignorance like this, thats when I give up. I hope it happens to you someday. It probably wont, but should it ever happen, dont post it here (not like you would anyways for fear of looking like a jack *** now), but if you would, I'd be the first to copy and paste something brainless like this:



When people say that cam failures are 90% user error I totally agree. Now, when you completely block out the fact that a cam could ever possibly come defective, you need to wipe the fecies off your nose and face...... you've been kissing WAY too much company bootie.

I truly apologize to the people that understand a bad cam could sneak through the door. I'm through with this post.

B4Ctom1

My inference and my "richmond" referrence is more to the fact that differential and cam break in are the two things people rarely do correctly. Therefore failures are VERY common.

Just because me, my buddy, his dad, my brother, his brother, and all of our friends have experienced a cam failure, rear gear whine or failure etc etc from the most popular manufacturer, doesnt mean much, not much at all in the way of faulty craftsmanship on the part of the manufacturer.

when we talk about failures, we usually use something good as a comparison. so if comp is bad, who is good? I can tell you don't even get me started on crane, isky, or lunati. I think they are all fine manufacturers, but EVERY manufacturers cam will flatten given the same set of circumstances.

ME Leigh

Sorry, i like your Avatar though, good going!!!

B4Ctom1

here you go, this one is better, from here


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=256281

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Um, actually they do, a little (not kidding). Richmond grinds their gears using a different process that results in a slightly stronger gear but also one that has a tendency to whine a little (not that it’s any worse then any other 10 bolt rear gear after you beat on it hard a few times).

B4Ctom1

yes, straighter cut, phosphating, motive is even worse about that. But if properly set up with a T&D machine tool they wont whine.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/84118/

bought this tool

http://emporium.markwilliams.com/pro...sp?prodid=1669

set up about 200 or so rears at work

never a whine again regardless of manufacturer as long as the gears were new.

406 S10 Man

iTrader: (1)

I'm not going to go into it too far, but I have had several comp failures in the last year.

I had the xe284 in my truck last summer. Coming home from work one day it started to bang. I got home and found a couple destroyed lifters and a junk cam. This cam had been installed for over a year when this happened.

The exact same thing happened to the xe268 in my wife's 383 a month later. Middle of the season it just goes to ****. Then one went flat just after/during the breakin. This was a running car, so it started right up and there was no problem during the breakin. I had the shortblock checked out by my machinist and he said there was nothing wrong with it to cause an oiling problem.

I switched to a moly based lube for the next cam breakin and it worked great. Previous to that I had been using the lube that came in the cam box, silly me. I don't know if that was the problem or not, but Comp Cams cost me at least 700 bucks in replacement cams. Plus my truck was down for 3 weeks and my wifes car was down for 6. Working on broken hotrods in the middle of the summer sucks.