Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

what do you think about them, yeah or nay??

why?

DartByU

I know several people that have them, haven't had any problems with them, they are ok for people that can't or don't want to build there own engine, but I wouldn't buy one cause I can build a better engine cheaper myself, then I know how it's put together.

Mark A Shields

I've had good luck with my GM motor, cept I bought the low perf one, so it's got new cam/heads now.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, every "home" engine buildup encounters at least one problem. I just like to know any problem I encounter will be warrantied. Come to think of it, every one of my friends that has built a motor has had one problem and has had to tear it apart to get it right. Then again they seem to think that is half the fun of it so oh well. If you are looking at crate motors, the 350HO is hard to beat. I am a little biased I guess

MdFormula350

they look like pretty solid engines..

DartByU

Honestly every "home" engine build up does NOT have a problem, I have built several engines, from Volkswagens to small block Mopars and Chevy's and never had to take one back apart, you just have to have common sense and the proper tools and know how to measure for proper clearance's, a rebuild manual helps a lot too, granted I'm a machinist and deal with measuring to the nearest .0001 everyday so it's pretty easy for me. But there are a lot of people that try it that have don't really have a clue of how things go together, they are the ones that have problems and they are the ones crate engines are made for.

DABE

i say no....id rather have a performance shop that u know and trust build it....i had mine built up...to my specs...he made suggestions...i got to see my motor in every stage...i went by once a week to check things out....i got mine built by Steve Ashworth...he does some nascar engines...hes mostly does performance engines...(circle track and drags)

GM engines...u dont know whats exactly in it...dont get to see how its done and whos doin the labor...id perfer a home job or a professional machine shop job...screw mass produced...

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I know what you are saying, and honestly my dad builds great engines, he built his 350 in his 77 chevy and it is an awesome motor. I was sorta just saying that some people think they know enough to build engines and really know nothing. I completely see your point of view though, done right and taking your time is key. The three incidents with three of my friends i was thinking of was:
Royally screwed up the timing and destroyed his brand new TFS 23* heads
Sucking in a plug behind the timing chain cover on a 350
Sucking in a plug behind the timing chain cover on a 383

Some stuff isn't avoidable, but maybe I am just paranoid

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

here's how i look at it.

gm gives 1 year warranty

not all other do

gm gives proven power

others give promises

gm offers same numbers as private builders at discounted prices

weigh the difference

if i save 2-3,000 and take a chance at 50 horses less but have a warranty and a group of people who can prove the motor works what's to loose?

racing for money or cash to burn i can understand it. but for a common street machine it doesn't make sense or does it?

ctandc

Again, it all depends on what you're looking for. Also, the GM Warranty isn't always what it's cracked up to be. I used to be a GM service tech, and I've seen how they can handle warranty claims.

For the normal person, who doesn't have connections to get machine work done at a good price, access to the RIGHT tools to build the engine etc, the GM Crates can end up being cheaper.

But you will NEVER know how GOOD it feels to build one and have it fire up that first time....knowing YOU built it. And when someone compliments your engine, you can brag that you did yourself.

If you SHOP AROUND, you can beat GM's power numbers for the money.

And if you're afraid of mistakes, take the shortblock and have it assembled by a TRUSTED machine shop.


But remember... it's ALWAYS worse when you end up paying for someone else's mistakes....like pulling that GM engine back out because something went wrong.

When you do it yourself, there's no one to blame.


I just finished helping a guy I know build his 1st 350. He's 20 years older than I am too....


TOTAL cost ( he's an accountant, that's his nature, he kept track of EVERYTHING ) was $4.00 and some change UNDER $3500, and that was CARB to oil pan.

The flywheel numbers were pretty stout......

348 HP @ 5800 RPM and 370 ft/lbs @ 3600 RPM




This is for his Suburban that he tows a camper and a boat with.


I tried to talk him into a 383 or 400, but he wanted to do a 350.


That price ALSO includes the little stuff that nobody ever keeps track of, like RTV, small bolts, paint, primer etc.



So weigh your options, pay your money and take your chances...


Just my 2 cents

HTH

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

I've got to agree with unknown_host and ctandc because face it, most of us don't have the tools that are necessary to do the job right. I remember reading one post on this board where some guy was spending all kinds of money on an engine and when it came to assembly "I even used plastigage...."(!) Plastigage? Jeez louise it's no wonder you had a problem with the engine.

I'll take my chances with a crate motor that comes with a warranty any day.

ctandc

What's wrong with using Plastigauge? I've used it on every engine I've built, and they all ran just fine....


Check the clearance 3 times on each part, and you shouldn't ever have a problem.


Biggest problem I tend to see with "new" engine builders is NOT checking new parts out of the box before using 'em. More than once I've gotten the wrong size bearings in a different box.




Just my 2 cents.....

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

What's wrong with plastigage? Given a choice between a crate motor and one put together by somebody using plastigage, I'll take the crate motor. It isn't intended as a slight for anyone that uses plastigage, it is just a preference.

ctandc

I understand that's your preference......What I'm asking is there any particular reason why you wouldn't buy and engine put together using Plastigauge?


Enlighten me........




Chris

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

It appears that I stepped on your toes and I apologize. Can we leave it at that?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

yes can we move on please...

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

Alrighty then.

Hey, have any of you checked out the crate motors at Scoggin Dickey? I think it's a section called the custom performance crate motors. Then look for drag race/pro street. There is one that SD calls the ZZ465 that is good for a reported 465 horses(!) and the price isn't bad.

86IROCNJ

Yeah, those are new from them. Last year when i got mine, there were no custom crate motors! Now they also have a zz4 with the hot cam already installed too. Not bad.

ctandc

I wasn't trying to make this a pissing contest. I was just curious why you didn't like Plastigauge?


And as for the GM crate motors... I think the 330 HP Vortec 350 is a good deal for the power. But anything beyond that can usually be built better and cheaper....just no warranty in writing


Just my highly inflated 2 cents......

Mark A Shields

Yeah, I think what ctandc said was misinterpreted, I think he was just wondering about your personal experiences with it, that's all.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

Well, okay.

Just to make sure I'm not way off base I reviewed a book on engine building. I thought I had a book by Bill Jenkins on building Chevy engines, but I couldn't find it. Anyway, check out a book called How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevys. Here is what it says about checking rod clearance, "Don't rely on Plasti-Gage measuring strips to tell you what kind of clearances that are in the engines that you build. This material does not always provide an accurate indication of the actual clearance. The only way to be sure is to measure ID and compare it against journal diameter...."
A photo in the text has this caption, "This is the only real way to check bearing-to-journal clearance -- with a snap gage and micrometer. Do not rely on Plasti-Gage for precision engine assembly."
Oh, and by the way, if you do use Plasti-Gage, make sure it is fresh. Old Plasti-Gage is even more inaccurate than fresh Plasti-Gage.
Now, since I've already stepped on some toes, let me make clear that this is only how I feel about it. I just happen to agree with the author of that book. If you feel differently about the subject, congratulations, I'm really happy for you.

harvtherabbit

Web site?????? thanks!!!

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

www.sdpc2000.com. First, go to crate engines. Then try custom crate engines. Then look for drag race/pro street. Or, maybe just do a search for ZZ465.

ctandc

I don't know about other people here, but you didn't step on my toes. I'm not one to try and convince someone to change their thinking...

I've read both the books I think you're referencing, and they are both full of good info.

As for measuring clearances...


Yes, in an ideal situation, micrometers are better. But, just in my experience, Plastigauge works fine, if it's used how it's intended, and more than one measurement in more than one spot on each assembly are taken.


So, I guess it's a preference thing....



No biggie.


Later

bubafett

For a good running engine. NOT A RACE ENGINE the crate engine is a deal.

There are few machine shops that can duplicate the General. I know of several orginal small blocks with 200,000+ miles on them and own one.

Ask the machine shop if they can build an engine to last that long.

Tear down an orginal engine. Some bearing will be stamped + / - .001. (Not to be confused with bearings for a .010, .020, .030 turned crank.) That is how close GM build its engines. Call the parts houses and ask for +/- .001 bearing. They will ask if you are crazy. They will tell you what will work and what is an acceptable margin. GM does not use these acceptable figures.

Unless you have the time to supervise, I would not trust 95% of machine shops to do the job.

I was short on time and paid big money for a good engine and really paid big money for someone to screwup my expensive parts.

I still dont have time, but I was so pissed I decided to do it myself.

I am building an engine myself now. I am on my second block and 3rd machine shop. This time I helped machine this block myself so I know it is right. It took alot of time to get it right...


If GM had crate engines with forged pistons I would buy one. It is good value if you value your time.

You can bolt on enough good parts to a ZZ4 short Block to make well over 400 hp. And if you buy the short block it is easy to pull caps and check clearence w/plastigage to determine if it is close enough. Recheck the bolt torque specs, check cylinder wall finish, etc. before you put it in the car.

Also you need to make damn sure that you find TDC and mark the balancer yourself. I have chased my tail trying to make power with a "professionally" assembled engine that the timing tab mark was off by 10 degrees!

As for the details like valve spring tension and installed height, pushrod length you need to do that yourself anyway.

A GM Short Block with the right bolt ons to include good heads will make a good strip street engine, but will not be suited for say all out racing. It will make the power but it will not live long in a super harsh environment.

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION BASED ON MY ON PERSONAL EXEPERIENCES AND NOT A BOOK. I AM NOT TRYING TO START A FIGHT WITH ANYONE as both routes have their pro and cons.

Mark A Shields

That plasti gauge stuff, is that like a soft material strip that gets squished and you measure it somehow, sorry for the lack of technical info, I just remember my Dad when he built an engine for me years ago he used these strips on the crank I believe it was.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

That's the stuff.