1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Shagwell, does that relay have anything to do with supplying power to the interior (power accessories)? Cause I noticed that when the starter just clicks instead of cranking the motor over, the power accessories are weak (ie. windows and locks). If I wait a minute or two and check the power accessories again, when the windows and locks are working quicker, the car will crank right up! Maybe we can figure this one out after all, I think we are making progress, I hope!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

That relay is only to crank the motor. After what you said, I would definitely think you have a weak ground. I'd take a set of jumpers and use one side of them as an extra ground cable. See how it cranks like that. That should be your issue.

On another note, after a couple days w/ this carb motor, I realize how badly I need that Stealthram...Then again, a fresh motor always seems to suck a little more fuel till its broken in good...I hope...

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

yea, but could that relay be causing the clicking and not cranking issue?



mike

Shagwell

Usually a clicking, not cranking is due to a weak solenoid, or a bad ground. How old is your starter? You may have mentioned this before, but I don't remember. A starter can develope a bad spot in the windings, and not work proper if it stops in that spot. A solenoid could have a bad spot on the washer, and not make enough connection if it hits that spot. - Those are possibilities. I'd check your ground wires long and hard first.

- you could test to see if you get power out of the large green wire(at the little relay) when you get the clicking, but if its clicking and not cranking, I don't think its the relay...

later, justin...

Shagwell

Another thing, test to see if you get power to the small purple wire at the starter when it is clicking. If it has power when the key is in the crank position, even when clicking only, that eliminates the posibility of it being anything before the starter. -

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

To Shagwell - The starter is a O=reiley's re-man. t-56 starter with a lifetime warranty which I just swapped out for a new re-man replacement. They tested both starters (the one I pulled out and the replacement) both tested fined and both engaged all 30 tries a piece! It could be the starter, but I'm not so sure. I've had this problem with the big automatic starters and the smaller T-56 starters and I have a 10 day old brand new battery. However, if I jump it with another car or a BIG battery charger, it starts first try 85% of the time, still get an occasional click or two even when I'm jump starting the car. I will check the power on the little starter wire and check for power on the relay wires tommorow sometime.

Thanks for the continued help, I still may need more help though!




Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

When you jump from another vehicle, you are using that vehicle's ground. Make sure the mounting surface of the block and the starter are clean, and change your battery to motor ground cable. Also, if you're on a factory stud in the block as mine is, pull the stud and clean it. - Just sounds to me like a connection issue.

no problem. thats what this board is for. I always help all I can, it always comes back around someway, sometime...I work on way too many cars to not nead help from time to time...

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

As far as the starting problem, I'm going to replace the negative bat term cable, clean the ground on the head where the cable grounds, and replace my new off brand solenoid with a new GM solenoid (hopefully this will take car of it once and for all!!)

I'm getting ready to meet a buddy of mine tonight and we are going to burn a custom PROM for the new combo (Ed Wright's chip needs to be sent back for major retuning!!)

One thing after another, hell, maybe one day before the year is over I'll be able to drive the damn car again!!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

I know how that goes. - I went to Ft Myers for what was supposed to be a week to do my motor swap/SFC's. I wanted to build in my own SFC's, and swap in my 425hp 355. - 2 1/2 weeks later I limped it back to Orlando hoping to not have a problem.

Anyhow, I think you will be solving your issues w/ what you have planned. - good luck, shout if you need anything -

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Just my luck!!! We modified the bin (changed injector constant and air/fuel ratio) and saved the new bin, however we were unable to burn the new chip cause there was something wrong with the pocket programmer.

There is gas in the oil again (oil smells really gassy, but it still feels like oil, when before it was almost all gas) even though the injectors are new and it is not leaking any gas out of the header. This is bothering me.

Maybe the rings haven't seated yet and since the car is running SO rich, maybe it's seeping past the rings..?

The car has run but only at idle for about 45 total. Is this enough time for the rings to seat?

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

No, thats not really enough time for them to seat, but the rings will loosen up when seated fully. - They scrub on the walls really hard until they seat in. - Gas in the oil again? - that sounds odd to me. Then again, when you change the oil, you don't get the oil thats in the rockers, or the oil thats in the lifters, or any oil that hasn't drained back from the heads(it never all drains back), etc... You probably still have a little residual gas in the oil. I wouldn't worry to much, but I would probably change it again, before you drive it too much anyway. - BTW What kind of oil are you using?(brand/weight) - just wondering - sorry about your chip issues. - good luck w/ it. I hope you're driving it before christmas...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Shagwell - I only use Castrol 10w 30. What weight do you guys recommend breaking in a new motor with.

I've also developed a new issue. Something is constantly draining the battery and the next day, I have to charge or jump start it. After it runs for a few minutes, the battery has enough juice to crank it again. The only thing I can think of that is different is that I added a 5" Autometer Lunar series tach. I used a 12 volt constant power wire to power it instead of an ignition only power source. Maybe the starter solenoid has something to do with this (if it's faulty)? I dunno!

I'm still investigating the oil leak.

Getting closer, but it looks doubtful that I will be driving it by x-mas!

If anyone in Houston area has a programmer, please let me know. I need help transfering a new .bin to a blank chip.

Thanks again,
Mike (1bad91Z)

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

with the 12 volt constant power source..the tach is constantly "on" all the time....this would drain the battery because it would not switch off ever.

I would go to the fuse block and it's one of the wire holes on the bottom facing the back of the fuse panel....just use a check light to show you which one is "ign" only.

Steve

PS i'm not sure if this would be the only cause of your battery drain, although it is one of the causes.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Ok, this sucks!! The oil leak is coming from the brand new rear main seal! I installed it correctly, (I've installed several of them in various motors). So, I've gotta take the tranny out again. Could the gas have eaten the seal when I had the old injectors dumping gas and had all that gas in the oil?

Mike (1bad91Z)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

What causes a 1 peice rear main seal to leak? Could a whole bunch of gas eat the seal? (I drained 12 quarts of fluid, mostly gas, when the old injectors were stuck open). Or does pressure cause it to leak? The reason I'm asking, is cause I've changed the oil twice since the gas in oil (injector problem) incident and it still leaked. So, that rules out the fact that gassy oil was thin enough to leak through and oil is thicker so it shouldn't leak, cause thick oil still leaked out.

I'm just trying to avoid this problem in the future cause oil soaked clutch disks are expensive to replace.

Mike (1bad91Z)

1fastz28

Don't quate me on this, but I can almost guarantee you that it was the ppressure that blew out the seal. That's why they never recomened never over filling your engine oil. The pressure reaks havoc with the seals. I don't think the gas was in there long enough to eat away at it at all. i hope that sheds a little light. I can't wait till your able to post some numbers. Car sounds awesome!!!:hail: :hail:

Shagwell

I agree on the tach and the seal issue. The tach may ot be your only issue, but it is staying on constant. It's a little hard on the tach too. - As for the seal, you may have had too much crank case pressure, and it may now be hurt. - Another thing. I had bought a new 1-piece seal when I built my new motor. I even bought the more expensive teflon seal. It was a Fel-pro. I installed it and didn't like it at all. Just from looking at it, I knew it wouldn't seal. I ended up running an old one that I had from another motor, and currently(knock on wood) haven't had a prob w/ it. - just a note. - Also, the oil you're running sounds good to me. I have torn down a lot of motors and personally only recommend Mobile/Exxon, Castrol, and Valvoline. I have a lot of friends who like the mobile synthetic, but I have been told by Mobile and buy Comp cams never to run synthetic on a fresh cam. They told me not to run synthetic until I had atleast 5,000k on the motor. - This was found out the hard way, AFTER we flattened two brand new cams in both blower motors for my dads boat. - good luck Mike!

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

**** - what do ya mean "it may now be hurt" ? Why would there be too much crank case pressure? (The whole time the motor has ran, the valve covers have been off.) Or was there too much pressure because there was so much fluid (mostly gas) in the motor? Do you think any permanent damage could have been done? What can I do to prevent blowing another seal?

Well, I yanked the tranny and replaced the seal. Tomorrow I'm going to re-stab the tranny and crank her up again! Wish me luck!

AND.......Happy New Year to you all!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

I was thinking that if it had had to much crankcase pres you could have hurt it. Thing is you shouldn't have had any pressure not having valve-covers on it. hummmmm...I think you just got a bad seal just like I did. I'm glad I caught mine ahead of time...sorry for your luck there. Looking forward to updates! - Good Luck!

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

More crappy news! I did replace the seal for sanity purposes, but that wasn't the problem. The back of the one piece oil pan gasket did not seal well and was the whole problem ( I found that out while cafefully inspecting everything because I was going to put the tranny back in today). The oil leaked from the rear outer corners the pan and the flywheel just kicked it arround everywhere and thats why the rear main was wet and the reason why everything else was wet. The oil pan may be bent because all the bolts for the oil pan are tight. Do I need to replace the pan or would squirting silicone in the gaps where it's leaking take car of the problem? Would that hold? Cause I do NOT want to have to yank the damn motor back out AGAIN!

Yes, very frustrated,
Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

I would suggest loosening the pan so that you can pull it down some. Then spray everything down w/ brake clean, and then silicone the crap out of it. My intake is leaking in the back because that stupid little gasket pushed out. I brake cleaned it and siliconed it and it stopped leaking. For an intake this will surfice till I change the intake and cam.(put my roller in) - For an oil pan, I'd take my chances w/ silicone, and see what happens. YOu should be able to get enough slack to properly squeeze in some silicone. - Good luck

later, justin...

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i'd go for the silicone solution too.

Did you fix the tach yet either???

Steve

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

I did fix the tach wire (I re-ran it to ign. only power source). But, the bat is still being drained, just not as bad. I think that may be in the starter solenoid. I'm going to replace some of the wiring to the starter, replace the new re-man starter with a new AC "rape me" Delco starter from the dealer, and replace the negative term bat cable (The positive is a brand GM bat cable $65!!! already installed). I'm just waiting on some funds to buy the remainder of those parts. I will try to loosen the pan and I'll remove the one piece gasket and try to reseal and silicone the hell out of it! I hope it works! I'm also working with some buddies of mine to get the PROM closer to being right (It's still too rich right now), but it's getting closer. The car should be drivable by this Monday if I get the pan to stop leaking. The rest can wait till money finds it way in my pocket. Dont lose faith, I'm getting closer. Before too long I'll have some dyno numbers for you guys. The numbers should be pretty damn good, she's a beast!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

Good Luck Mike! - I can't wait to hear how it does. That thing should be one hell of a beast!

later, Justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

She's alive AGAIN! No oil is leaking as of yet, so I'm crossing my fingers. Tomorrow after work I'm taking it to the exhaust shop to have the back of the y-pipe collector flanges welded on that way I can eliminate the clamp in the back and have a completly un-boltable y-pipe. Next on the agenda is a heated o2 and more PROM tuning. Once I get the chip as close as I can get it to perfect, I'll have some dyno numbers shortly there after! Damn, I just got the car running and there's 3 people that already want to race! (all 3 are 12 sec. mustangs), so it shouldn't be a problem!

Later,
Mike (1bad91Z)

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

She's on the road!!! I'm still running WAY too rich (BLM's at 108), but I can say that it's pretty damn fast! And, it still has more left in it (once I get the PROM straight). Even with the exhaust on, it's still pretty loud and you definitely know it has a big cam in it. The car can definitely benefit from some gears (right now it's the stock 3.23 G92 rear), but it still spun the tires through 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and chirped in 4th!! This really turned out to be an AWESOME combo!

Mike (1bad91Z)

:lala: :lala: :hail: :hail: :lala: :lala:

Shagwell

The hardest part about driving after an engine swap is keeping your foot out of it while breaking it in. I had soooo many people trying me, but I wanted a solid 1k on it before I planted my foot down hard. - Good luck w/ it Mike. Sounds like you're finally on the last leg of it. knock on wood...

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Actually, I was always tought that when you have a new motor, for the 1st hour it's running, mostly idle it and when you drive it during that hour, keep the r's low and vary the r's. Then, kick it in the guts. Break the motor in how you want it to run. If something is gonna let go, better to have it let go up front than shortly down the road. When Top fuel cars make a pass, they have new a motor, they dont wait to break it in. They kick it in the guts! Just my $.02

Mike (1bad91Z)

1982chevycamaroz28

well the top fuel guys do brake in the motors. when ive been down there for the Matco Tools Summer natinaols at etown. after they rebuild the motor and what not they fire it up while havin the car on there weird carlike stands and just run them for like a few mins like 2-5 mins at most. they let it idle, bring the rpms up alittle and then rev it up really high and quick and they do it a few times depending on how each team brakes in the motor.

Shagwell

Top Fuel guys also completely rebuild the motor ever 1/4 mile! and yes, they do pre-fire it. I usually try to run it easy for the first 1000 miles, vary the throttle, and keep the r's down. On a fresh cam, you're supposed to bring the motor up to around 1000-1500 for ten minutes to properly break-in the cam. You're supposed to do this the moment you fire the motor. I tend to lean on it a little after the first 500 miles, but only for short bursts like through a gear change, and never in the floor. I also like to change the oil at 500-750, then at 1800-2000, then on the regular schedule. - I have heard people who say run it like you're gonna drive it. I guess if its gonna break its gonna break. I just like giving my investment a chance to breathe before it gets beat.

later, justin...

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

I don't think you have to do that with a hydraulic roller, just making an observation.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

You are correct. The 10 minute break in doesn't really apply to HR cams. The 10 minute at 2 grand is for non-roller cams that need to establish a wear pattern on non-roller lifters.

On a different note, I finally got a heated o2. Now, I'm just waiting on spare funds for the PROM programmer and the ALDL to laptop cable (this way I dont have to bug people to burn the .bin's I made with new changes). But hey, even running too rich and having those dinky 3.23's, it still has the ***** to shame a new Vette!

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

Shamed a C-5?...on the progress road I see...Doesn't it feel great to rip a nice new $35,000+ car? The best part is no one seems to expect it from a 3rd gen...suckers...

later, justin...

oldblueZ

For the injectors: I don't know if you know they flow at a higher rate. There is a thread on there that has all of the math, but my SVO 19lbs flow like 21lbs in a GM car. Your SVO 24lbs flow like 26lbs injectors in a GM car. They are also the same thing as the Accell ones, with the flow difference, so when you re-burn your prom, try using 26lbs instead of 24lbs.

BTW I am using them in a 305 with an Ed Wright off the shelf chip and my eyes are burning too, now that I got my fuel leak fixed and all of the fuel is going to the injectors. I shoulda left the leak so it wouldn't run so rich, but that's not exactly safe....sooo.

*edit* I just clicked around looking for the math post, and found you already tried that. Good luck with it.

HTH,
Jesse

wyclefsirocz

i have a question, it has nothing to do with your break in.

its about your exhaust, correct if i'm wrong-

hooker long tubes--->mufflex 3.5"-4" Y pipe--->into a 3" cat---> 3" flowmaster catback.

wouldn't a high flow 4" cat and a 4" mufflex catback do more for you.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yea, you should have seen the look on that guy's face ('02 C5) when he caught up to me at the next light! PRICELESS!

If you've kept track of my progress, you would know that I set my PROM to 26 lb. inj. con. Even with that and MANY other table changes, it's still running rich! I'm waiting on my new burner to start making more changes. I have maybe 15 - 30 hp more to gain by the time I get the PROM straight.

Exhaust -

The exhaust (sewer pipe) I'm running is PLENTY huge enough! Any bigger, like the mufflex, would just hurt torque.

From the timeslipped cars that I've raced and how much I beat them by, even with the dinky 3.23's mated to a six speed and the PROM issues (running really rich), and no traction (street tires with stock suspension, I figure the car will do 12.20's - 12.50's.

With 3.73's, tuning completed, all the suspension goodies, and stickies, I'm shooting for a VERY feasable 11.80 (which was my goal all along for a naturally aspirated sbc with LTR style TPI)!! :lala:

And then, comes the ATI charger and F.A.S.T. DFI! :hail:

Mike (1bad91Z)

wyclefsirocz

just asking about the exhaust cause going from a 4" ypipeto a 3" cat sounds like your losing some power there. maybe i have ur setup wrong

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

well, the mufflex y-pipe has a flowmaster y-collector (dual 3 in. inlets and a 4 in. outlet, but comes with a 4 in. to 3 1/4 in. reducer to hook upto the rest of a 3 in. cat back. If I would have continued the 4 in. all the way out, I may have picked up 5 horse power, but at the expense of ~ 10 ft. lbs. of torque. Trust me, you would rather have that 10 ft. lbs. of torque in a Thirdgen. Plus I already had the flowmaster cat back and I couldn't justify the cost of the mufflex 4 in. for the 5 hp that I might have gained! Just my $.02

Mike (1bad91Z)

Shagwell

Yes Mike, eating C-5's is great, but think of how it feels (and the other guys expression) when you eat a Z06! $60,000 to get wasted by a 12 year old car...Those guys seem to get really defensive and REALLY pissed off. I had a guy try me for 3 or 4 lights and just flat beat the **** out of his new vette for nothing but a nice view of my rear bumper...hehehe

good luck! -

later, justin...

wyclefsirocz

aight i get what your saying, its just it seemed a little funny to me to go from large to small, its just mos peole do it the other way

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Update:

I found out that the whole time that I've had the car running, I've been stuck in open loop due to the o2 sensor being in the y-pipe. I've corrected the issue by using a 3 wire heated o2. This means that the car was running that good while running PIG rich! I cant wait to see the power I'll gain when making a pass in closed loop (leaner than open loop perameters). It's been raining everyday for the last 2 weeks so I haven't been driving the car. I'm getting closer with the PROM issues. I should have in nailed down or pretty close in the next week or two. What that means is, yes, dyno results in the next 2 - 3 weeks!! That is, if you guys are curious. I know I am! Oh yea, and I added a Hotchkis signature series stut tower brace (gun-metal grey metalic powder coated).

Mike (1bad91Z)

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i can't wait to see some time slips....yay

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Update:

The car is running AWESOME! Me and a buddy of mine burned a few more chips for it. However I still have some bugs and issues to correct before I dyno it.

1.) the intermittent starting problem (clicking)
2.) the other day, a couple of rocker's started clattering, so I need to reset the valves. I hope I didn't collapse a lifter or bend any push rods, but we'll see
3.) The collector gaskets are shot! I need to replace those
4.) I'm also going to change out the drive shaft and the rear tranny seal on the six-speed.
5.) adding an Air/Fuel ratio gauge that way when I'm on the dyno, I can see where I'm at that way I dont go too lean when I'm messing with the fuel pressure
6.) and Finally .............money. I need that to do all the above and pay the dyno guy when I go up there.

Other than that, all I can tell you is that it's a low 12 sec car even with dinky 3.23's, no suspension upgrades, and NO traction! This was based off of several timeslipped cars that I've raced. With gears, suspension goodies, and some stickies, high 11's will be NO problem. The original goal has been met and I'm pretty happy with the way it has turned out so far! :hail:

Mike (1bad91Z)

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Mike,
I'm glad your car is running so good. I have a q. about your exhaust. I want to make sure I have this right. You have LT's, a mufflex y pipe, that goes through a cat and through a factory location cat back? This is probably the setup I am going to do with my 400. I have the LT's but will need to buy the mufflex y pipe and find a cat back somewhere.
Thanks.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Exhaust:

Hooker 1 3/4 in long tubes (coated) 2210's
mufflex TPI y-pipe
after the y-pipe, you only have about 1 1/2 to 2 feet of space between the y-pipe and the axle
this space is where I put my car-sound cat
the pipe (bend) that goes over the axle (including the muffler) is what is left of a flowmaster american thunder cat-back
and I had new outlets / tips made for the muffler

And yes, it hangs a little low for my taste, but it's not that bad. The lowest spot on the whole system is still the passenger side header collector, and that you can't avoid.

I hope this helps!

Mike (1bad91Z)

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Yes it does, thank you.
Jason

Pony Killer

Good to see the car running well.


The first 60,000 dollar glare you get when dusting a Z06 at the track is the best

Shagwell

I couldn't agree more Pony Killer. - Mike, that thing was in open loop? - WOW...I bet that made a huge difference! Was it because of the sensor being in the y and reading both banks, or was it just a bad sensor? - I'm about to drop my motor back in and I'm going to run LT's and a x-pipe w/ dual hooker mufflers(aero or max, haven't decided) and dumps. I had planned on putting an O2 sniffer in the x, but not if it's gonna throw a hissy fit.

Glad to hear she's running better! - Good luck again...

later, justin...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yea, the damn thing was in open loop the whole time! The sensor was good, the problem was that it's located in the y-pipe and and the single wire sensor wasn't getting hot enough to send a reading to the ECM. I had to use a 3 wire heated o2 sensor from a 1992 Astro van (vin code Z). As soon as I wired it up, it went into closed loop and glowed both headers red! So from there, I did ALOT of closed loop re-programming and I got the new PROM pretty close. I still have more room for improvement in the PROM, I just have to get the car back on the scanner and keep making corrections until it's perfect. I'm on chip #21 right now and from what the guys say on the DIY-PROM board, that it takes 50 -100 revisions roughly before you get it as close to perfect as you can get. But hey, it's still ALOT cheaper than digital fuel injection! As soon as I install the moser 12 bolt w/3:73's, all the suspension goodies, some stickies, and finish all the PROM tuning it will be an 11 sec ride for sure!

Mike (1bad91Z)

johnsjj2

You don't by chance have any pictures of those heads do you?